To Rohloff or not to...

paul said:

Well, if I get the time, I'm of to see the Bikefix bods...
but the one thing I remain indecisive about is the Rohloff
speedhub. Should I or shouln't I? If I do, will I be
ridiculed for wasting my money? If I don't, will I regret
it every time I hit the road?

Quoted message said:

Oh, decissions, decisions 🙁

I'm still a couple of steps behind you 🙂 Had a testride
last Saturday on a Grasshopper and on a Birdy Grey to try
a Rohlof and I'm not convinced. It's a lot of money and I
don't like the twist gear shift. I'm currently more
leaning towards the dual drive, which has some of the
same advantages as the Rohlof and is a standard option at
no extra cost. But first a testride on the Fiero this
Friday :-)

Roos

paul said:

Well, if I get the time, I'm of to see the Bikefix bods...
but the one =

Quoted message said:

thing I remain indecisive about is the Rohloff speedhub.
Should I or=20 shouln't I? If I do, will I be ridiculed
for wasting my money? If I=20 don't, will I regret it
every time I hit the road?=20

Saturday was Grasshopper testing day. And we took out a
Birdy Grey to=20 think some Rohloff thoughts too...

First up, the Grasshopper is a very nice piece of kit based
on a few=20 miles acquaintance around the top end of
Glasgow, but the assertion that =

it's just Plain Better than the Streetmachine is a rather
contentious=20 one IMHO. I arrived with a Streetmachine, and
didn't feel I'd much=20 rather leave with a Grasshopper. The
GH is, I'd say, a better all=20 round, one size fits all
design, eliminating the two things I don't like =

so much about the Streetmachine (it's quite heavy and it's
very unwieldy =

to lug about when you're out of the seat). But I found that
despite the =

new seat being more adjustable than a particularly
adjustable bit of New =

Improved Super-Adjustable Meccano I personally find the
Streetmachine=20 seat more comfortable. It's like the saddle
thing, I suppose, but the=20 SMGT (medium) seat just fits me
beautifully so there's no need to adjust =

it. I found the GH seat less comfortable at the shoulder
blades and=20 just above my hips, and I had quite a
good go at fiddling things to=20 change it! And there's
no way the GH will lug loads as well because the =

carrier set up doesn't allow you to get major weight right
under the=20 rider, between the wheels like you can do with
the Streetmachine. So, I'd have a test ride of the
Streetmachine anyway. And the=20 Speedmachine. Just as I'm
fairly sure the Street' would be a much=20 better full
tourer I think the Speedmachine will do speed with=20
refinement inna Audax stylee rather better. Both the
'Machines look to=20 be better dedicated purpose bikes,
where the GH looks a better general=20 purpose do everything
pretty well bike. Depends what you want, of course=
=2E

And onto the Rohloff... I like the Rohloff a lot. On Ben's
Birdy Grey=20 I just did all the things you're Not Supposed
To Do with Mere Mortal=20 Gears and it just *worked*. So
it's a pleasure to ride with it, and the =

range covers everything you need and the steps are just
about right too, =

and that's before we get to the bugger-all maintenance and
reduced chain =

wear clauses. But... Roos considers twist shifters are a
Work Of Stan,=20 and it's the only choice on the Rohloff, so
that's a problem. With me,=20 it's simply that though I do
like what it does it *is* =A3600 and I think=
=20
=A3600 ought to go further. And it shouldn't sound like
clockwork in 1-6= ,=20 plus the nagging doubt that I'll be
able to get something similarly=20 capable for rather less
within the few years working life of the=20 derailleur
currently on the bike. The other thing to hold against
that=20 =A3600 cost increase is that derailleurs (and the
Dualdrive option on the=
=20
GH) aren't really that broken, so how much do you need to
fix them? If=20 I won the lottery and/or was going to do
major expedition work to the=20 middle of nowhere I'd get
one, but as it is I just can't justify the=20 benefits
against the large increased cost.

On my Streetmachine, the extras I got were, in hindsight,
all very good=20 choices I'm glad I paid for. They were:

- The SON dynohub lighting set. When I bought it I asked
here what the=20 No Brainer options were, and everyone
replying said this. I was a bit=20 against dynamos at the
time, but the consensus was there so I went for=20 it, and
the consensus was right on the mark. I can't recommend the
SON=20 option too highly as something to spend your
pennies on: no forgetting=20 your lights, having batteries
die, charging faffs etc. You just ride=20 around and the
lights come on as it gets dark. Superb kit that just=20
does what's needed with no input from you.

- The full rack set. The Streetmachine really benefits a lot
from the=20 lowrider if you're carrying heavy stuff as it
centres the weight between =

the wheels and under the rider, the perfect place to put
it. I'd still=20 get them on the GH but being less of a
dedicated load lugger they're=20 less of an "of course
you want these" thing. But not getting a rear=20 rack on
a capable tourer where rucksacks and saddlebags won't
work would =

be mad IMHO.

- Airflow seat. Just a little more comfy than the basic
karrimat. If=20 you're getting 'bent for comfort, might as
well go that little further.

- prop stand. You can't lean the bike against a kerb on the
pedal. Far=20 more useful than I'd have thought in
advance, I now really miss having a =

stand when I haven't got one and am in Utility Mode.

- mudguards. A "do everything" bike without mudguards?
Not for me.

The brakes I got were the default Tektro Vs, and they're
fine. But the=20 bike is still over at Kinetics, getting
Magura HS33s installed. Having=20 ridden a Challenge Mistral
with HS33s a wee while ago I came to the=20 rapid conclusion
that they're just a lot nicer to use than any=20 mechanical
rim brakes I'd ever used. Smoother and more responsive.

If I ordered myself a GH today I'd get the Dualdrive gears,
all the=20 options I took on the SMGT (both racks) plus the
HS33s. I'd look at the =

Rohloff check box, and decide that, yes, it would be nice,
but not for=20 that much money. Other great thing about the
GH is, of course, the green. I hope you're=20 not
considering that boring blue/grey? ;-/

Pete. --=20 Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382
660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44
1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net
[email hidden] dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Peter Clinch said:

Both the 'Machines look to be better dedicated
purpose bikes, where the GH looks a better general
purpose do everything pretty well bike. Depends what
you want, of course.

It looks a lot like the Stinger in layout, and I will say
that your comments would also apply to that - limited
luggage capacity especially. The Stinger is a good day-ride
bike, I would not want to use it for touring of any sort,
and it is not great on bad roads with that small back wheel.

Quoted message said:

With me, it's simply that though I do like what [Rohloff]
does it *is* £600 and I think £600 ought to go further.
And it shouldn't sound like clockwork in 1-6, plus the
nagging doubt that I'll be able to get something similarly
capable for rather less within the few years working life
of the derailleur currently on the bike.

The Rohloff is heavy and expensive, but does cure one
inherent problem with small-wheeled recumbents, which is
that the chain is very close to the source of crud. I am not
sure that I would spend the extra or add the weight either,
although if I was riding in traffic more I might because the
ability to shift when stationary is very desirable.
Recumbents are in the main quite heavy enough already, so it
would be a hard sell for me as well.

Quoted message said:

- The SON dynohub lighting set.

Absolutely. Can't recommend it highly enough.

Quoted message said:

- prop stand.

Absolutely. I wasn't convinced until mine fell off (bolt
made of cheese). I've asked Darth Ian to use beefier bolts
when rebuilding the bike.

Quoted message said:

- mudguards. A "do everything" bike without mudguards? Not
for me.

Quite.

Quoted message said:

The brakes I got were the default Tektro Vs, and they're
fine. But the bike is still over at Kinetics, getting
Magura HS33s installed.

Mine is being upgraded to Hope Minis. Hurrah!

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.ukOpen ↗

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University

Just zis Guy said:

It looks a lot like the Stinger in layout, and I will say
that your comments would also apply to that - limited
luggage capacity especially. The Stinger is a good day-
ride bike, I would not want to use it for touring of any
sort, and it is not great on bad roads with that small
back wheel.

Not really a fair comparison, I think. The GH has integral
lowriders as well as a rear rack as part of the basic
design: it is actually *meant* for touring, though not as
serious touring loadwise as the Streetmachine. The small
back wheel has a rather more sophisticated suspension to
keep it on track than the Stinger, and you've got sus from
the proven Meks fork at the front as well to keep things
smoother. We took it along a pretty comical back road on
Saturday, a candidate as a reference site for International
Year of the Pothole (with bonus deluge added), and it was
fine. As was the Birdy, with its even smaller (but
suspended) wheels, come to think of it. The GH isn't as low
or sporty as the Stinger, I think, the seat is more upright
and the racks are designed for 4 panniers.

Quoted message said:

The Rohloff is heavy and expensive, but does cure one
inherent problem with small-wheeled recumbents, which is
that the chain is very close to the source of crud. I am
not sure that I would spend the extra or add the weight
either, although if I was riding in traffic more I might
because the ability to shift when stationary is very
desirable. Recumbents are in the main quite heavy enough
already, so it would be a hard sell for me as well.

And of course you get some of the changing stationary
benefits from a Dualdrive setup, as the hub will change when
you've stopped sharpish at the lights in 27th so you can at
least get back to 9th...

Quoted message said:

Absolutely. I wasn't convinced until mine fell off (bolt
made of cheese). I've asked Darth Ian to use beefier bolts
when rebuilding the bike.

What's the current state of play in the bike-fell-to-bits-
again saga, Guy? Do I take it from this that you're keeping
it (or another replacement) on?

Quoted message said:

Mine is being upgraded to Hope Minis. Hurrah!

Good hydraulic discs are indeed Les Bits du Chien, but note
they make a Rohloff even *more* expensive, if you can
imagine such a thing, as you need a special something-or-
other. Not all SONs are disc compatible either, so make sure
you have a disc compatible one if you plan to upgrade later.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Peter Clinch said:

What's the current state of play in the bike-fell-to-bits-
again saga, Guy? Do I take it from this that you're
keeping it (or another replacement) on?

Optima have, in response to my earlier problem plus two
other failures, re-engineered the frame in a higher grade
of aluminium, using a larger-diameter headset, improved
stress relief after welding and a reinforcing plate around
the headset. Darth Ian thinks it looks like a competent job
and should give no further problems, so advised me to
accept Optima's offer of a replacement frameset, plus an
upgrade to Hopes as a goodwill gesture. As usual Optima
have treated the matter with due seriousness and have not
even tried to weasel.

Quoted message said:

Good hydraulic discs are indeed Les Bits du Chien, but
note they make a Rohloff even *more* expensive, if you can
imagine such a thing

Sacred blue! But how could zis be?

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.ukOpen ↗

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University

paul <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Well, if I get the time, I'm of to see the Bikefix bods...
but the one thing I remain indecisive about is the Rohloff
speedhub. Should I or shouln't I? If I do, will I be
ridiculed for wasting my money? If I don't, will I regret
it every time I hit the road?

The answer to both questions is "yes". Does that help? :-)

Seriously, if you want it and can afford it go for it.

--
Dave...

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Optima have, in response to my earlier problem plus two
other failures, re-engineered the frame in a higher grade
of aluminium, using a larger-diameter headset, improved
stress relief after welding and a reinforcing plate around
the headset.

Interestingly in the other ng's someone mentioned a couple
of times that 20
% more metal could mean a 100x longer stress life (or
% somesuch).

Sounds a bit like they have gone belt and braces, which
will probably be removed as overkill (until the same
happens later).

Evolution eh?

In message <[email hidden]-
berlin.de>, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Mine is being upgraded to Hope Minis. Hurrah!

I do think breaking a bike just to get some nicer breaks is
a bit extreme......
--
Chris French, Leeds

Dave Kahn said:

Seriously, if you want it and can afford it go for it.

Though do bear in mind other stuff, not necessarily for the
Grasshopper, that you could spend the same money on in the
same shop. A Brompton (and change), half an 8 Freight... As
an owner of a Brompton and a whole 8 Freight, I'd say
they're each more useful to me than a Rohloff on the tourer
would be. If you're really flush, of course, get them all!
(though why have a compromise between Speed and Street
Machines when you could have one of each (with Rohloffs) if
you're really made of money...).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Peter Clinch said:

But... Roos considers twist shifters are a Work Of Stan,
and it's the only choice on the Rohloff, so that's a
problem.

I'm with Roos on that one, and it's the main reason I
wouldn't seriously consider the Rohloff.

Quoted message said:

On my Streetmachine, the extras I got were, in hindsight,
all very good choices I'm glad I paid for. They were:

- The SON dynohub lighting set.

Excellent choice.

Quoted message said:

- The full rack set.

Ditto.

Quoted message said:

- Airflow seat. Just a little more comfy than the basic
karrimat. If you're getting 'bent for comfort, might as
well go that little further.

A *lot* more comfy during the summer months, IMHO. A very
worthwhile upgrade.

Quoted message said:

- prop stand. You can't lean the bike against a kerb on
the pedal. Far more useful than I'd have thought in
advance, I now really miss having a stand when I haven't
got one and am in Utility Mode.

Sadly the plate on the bottom of the lowrider rack that the
original prop stand bolted onto snapped off after a couple
of years of daily use. I then removed the lowrider rack
completely and have found the bike to be much more practical
for day to day use without it [1]. I've since managed to
find a stand that mounts to the chainstay.

Quoted message said:

- mudguards. A "do everything" bike without mudguards? Not
for me.

Quite. I've read reports of spray going down the back of the
rider's neck when riding a recumbent without a rear
mudguard. Yuk.

[1] Following Pete's frequent comments about the lowrider
rack being a much better place to carry weight, I
refitted it the weekend before last and will try it
again for a while. First impression was that the bike
became much more difficult to get out of the house. I
have to stand the bike up on the back wheel to get it
into the hall. This is really easy with all the weight
on the back, not so easy with the weight in the middle
of the bike.

Next problem is that the lowrider rack always tended to get
in the way when going through cyclepath barriers. Even more
so with a pannier fitted. There are now only 2 such barriers
on my commute, but it's a PITA having to lift the bike that
bit higher 4 times a day.

Handling seems slightly better with the pannier on the
lowrider, but not so much that it's really noticeable over
the terrain I encounter on my commute. So the chances are
that I'll switch back to the rear rack and remove the
lowrider again when I get round to spring cleaning the bike.

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
speedy5.freeserve.co.ukdannyOpen ↗
Why I like OE6 - speedy5.freeserve.co.ukoe6.htmlOpen ↗
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Danny Colyer said:

Handling seems slightly better with the pannier on the
lowrider, but not so much that it's really noticeable
over the terrain I encounter on my commute. So the
chances are that I'll switch back to the rear rack and
remove the lowrider again when I get round to spring
cleaning the bike.

There's weight and there's weight, of course. Only when I
put a *lot* of heavy shopping all on the rear rack did I
ever notice the handling downgraded obviously, and then it
was considerably less effect than I'd expect with a
perfectly loaded upright carrying the same stuff. But if I
put heavy stuff in the lowriders all it does is seem to glue
the bike to the road better...

When I say weight is better in the middle I don't want to
imply that the rear rack is in any way a muffed
implementation, just that the lowriders on the SMGT are
absolutely textbook cases for heavy stuff (like 2 panniers
completely full of wine and beer bottles). For typical
cycling use I tend just to use the back (where the seat
drafts things better), but in the light of the first post
the GH may be a better "typical cycling" choice now.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Peter Clinch said:

[twist shifters are] the only choice on the Rohloff

Why is that? Unique amount of cable pull? Could alternative
levers be rigged up somehow? Or are the shifters doing
something special?

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Why is that? Unique amount of cable pull? Could
alternative levers be rigged up somehow? Or are the
shifters doing something special?

I'm not exactly a Rohloff expert, but I do know it's fairly
unusual in having a twin-cable arrangement: one in, one out,
sort of thing. AIU[1]I this helps the way all the indexing
is done at the gearbox itself, so there is in theory no need
to adjust the cabling Ever Again. Aside from the twin cable
the twist grip itself is quite unremarkable in use, aside
from the number of stops.

Was speaking to Darth Ben about it as Roos mentioned her
dislike of twist grips, and he said that he had come across
someone who had managed to bodge some bar-ends into use but
it was frankly a bit of a partial success at best and not
something that recommended itself.

IMHO what the Rohloff *really* needs is some competition,
though it's hardly *their* fault it's the Only Game In Town
for a Superhub at the moment.

I much prefer bar-ends and Rapidfires, but I am getting on
with twist shifters the more I use them. Which is lucky as
that's what the 8 Freight uses, but if^H^Hwhen I get a
Speedmachine it's probably going to have Rapidfires rather
than the default twists.

Pete.

[1] Hah!
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden]=20 says...

Quoted message said:

Dave Kahn wrote:
=20

Quoted message said:

Seriously, if you want it and can afford it go for it.

=20
Though do bear in mind other stuff, not necessarily for
the Grasshopper,=

=20

Quoted message said:

that you could spend the same money on in the same shop. A
Brompton=20 (and change), half an 8 Freight... As an owner
of a Brompton and a=20 whole 8 Freight, I'd say they're
each more useful to me than a Rohloff=20 on the tourer
would be. If you're really flush, of course, get them=20
all! (though why have a compromise between Speed and
Street Machines=20 when you could have one of each (with
Rohloffs) if you're really made of=

=20

Quoted message said:

money...).
=20
Pete.
=20

Well, I'm not made of money, but when Sarah finds out what I
spent to=20 day I'll wish I was 🙂

Thanks Roos and Peter, your comments were timely and to the
point. I was=20 begining to fixate on the Rohloff, and had
decided that it was THE most=20 important upgrade. I had
nearly convinced myself that it was worth while=20
sacrificing ALL other upgrades in its favour, but...

It'll be green, It'll have; Mudguards, a SON based lighting
system, a Dual drive hub both sets of carriers wotsit air
cushion headrest posh rear shock plush forks Magura Julie
disk brakes a prop stand and underseat stearing
=20
The only thing I'm not convinced about is the Magura julie
disks=20 (especially folloing some comments made here), but
I really can't afford=20 another =A3200 for the Marta's, and
mister Bikefix convinced me that disk=
=20
was better than HS33 rims...=20

I can't wait to get it, but, big downer..

=09I've got to. Untill the end of May. :o( It seems I missed
=the last=20
of the first batch of frames, so I've got to wait until they
make some=20 more :o(

ho hum --=20 .paul

If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is probably not
the sport for you.

paul said:

posh rear shock plush forks

No criticism here, though do note there's nothing actually
wrong with=20 HPVel's basic equipment. Even the basic front
fork is widely considered =

much better than the old Ballistic one they used, but having
an older=20 Streetmachine I have the Ballistic, and I've
never found any reason to=20 change it. The better stuff has
more wangles you can fiddle with, but=20 I've never wanted
to change my sus settings as it is, so more=20 adjustability
is pretty moot for me. But the better stuff will be better=
=2E

Quoted message said:

and underseat stearing

The one we played on had this, and the Good News is it works
very=20 nicely. Completely natural steering and a nice
implementation. One=20 minor sniffle is there's not enough
room for a lowrider pannier to go on =

back-to-front so you've got easier access to a tail pocket
as that would =

limit the steering lock, but that's hardly the end of the
world and=20 there's plenty of room to put the pannier on
the normal way around.

Quoted message said:

The only thing I'm not convinced about is the Magura julie
disks=20 (especially folloing some comments made here),
but I really can't affor=

d=20

Quoted message said:

another =A3200 for the Marta's, and mister Bikefix
convinced me that di=

sk=20

Quoted message said:

was better than HS33 rims...=20

I think Darth Stuart's right that they are better. The real
question is =

how much do you need better? Having done a lot of miles on
the=20 Streetmachine with just the Tektro Vs I've never felt
I wished I had far =

more brake power, and that includes some screaming descents
on pretty=20 marginal back roads with hairpins and 4
panniers on board. The reason=20 I'm moving to the HS33s is
modulation, smoothness and less fiddling to=20 adjust in
future rather than raw power. I think Guy's feeling about
Julies may be worth further research (he's=20 not very
complimentary and happy to be changing to Hopes, IIRC).

Quoted message said:

I've got to. Untill the end of May. :o( It seems I
missed the last=20 of the first batch of frames, so
I've got to wait until they make some =

Quoted message said:

more :o(

Hey ho. It was a very long 6 weeks for my Streetmachine to
arrive, so I =

know how you feel... :-(

Pete. --=20 Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382
660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44
1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net
[email hidden] dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

and underseat stearing

Quoted message said:

The one we played on had this, and the Good News is it
works very=20 nicely. Completely natural steering and a
nice implementation. One=20 minor sniffle is there's not
enough room for a lowrider pannier to go on = back-to-front
so you've got easier access to a tail pocket as that would
= limit the steering lock, but that's hardly the end of the
world and=20 there's plenty of room to put the pannier on
the normal way around.

What was very nice was the way the USS was adjustable. You
can change the forward position as well as the angle of
the handles.

Roos

On 6/4/04 11:55 pm, in article
[email hidden], "paul"

Quoted message said:

It'll be green,

The best colour for a bicycle (despite mine being red, red
and blue.. I used to have red, red, white and blue, my wife
has the green one.)

Quoted message said:

It'll have; Mudguards, a SON based lighting system, a Dual
drive hub both sets of carriers wotsit air cushion
headrest posh rear shock plush forks Magura Julie disk
brakes a prop stand and underseat stearing

Coffee cup holder FM radio
MP3/CD player climate control Sat Nav Sun roof

Are you missing a few more bits you could bolt on?

..d

David Martin said:

Coffee cup holder FM radio
MP3/CD player climate control Sat Nav Sun roof

Are you missing a few more bits you could bolt on?

HPVelotechnik are firm believers in a good range of options.
They haven't launched a tailbox for the Grasshopper yet, but
no reason it wouldn't take the Streamer front fairing for
the "climate control" side of things...

Pete.

--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Roos Eisma said:

paul <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, if I get the time, I'm of to see the Bikefix bods...
but the one thing I remain indecisive about is the Rohloff
speedhub. Should I or shouln't I? If I do, will I be
ridiculed for wasting my money? If I don't, will I regret
it every time I hit the road?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh, decissions, decisions 🙁

Quoted message said:

I'm still a couple of steps behind you 🙂 Had a testride
last Saturday on a Grasshopper and on a Birdy Grey to try a
Rohlof and I'm not convinced. It's a lot of money and I
don't like the twist gear shift. I'm currently more leaning
towards the dual drive, which has some of the same
advantages as the Rohlof and is a standard option at no
extra cost.

But with a Rohloff you can use thicker much longer lasting
straight running chains, and fit a really good enclosing
chainguard, and have chains last maintenance free for years
and years and

<swoon with delight>
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]