Titanium dropout cracking problems.................????

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

The only significance to Ti frame failures is that some believe Ti to be
some sort of indestructible material that nothing ever happens to.

Well, duh, man, I mean Campy even makes jerseys out of the stuff, it
must be good!

(append about 30 smileys here)

Mark Janeba

Quoted message said:

Clarification:

Apparently the cracks occur on the weld dropout not on the actual
dropout itself.

As long as you're buying a new bike (and thus with a warranty), this
shouldn't be a major consideration. Used bikes, that's another thing, as
most manufacturers warrant product only for the original owner.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Clarification:

Apparently the cracks occur on the weld dropout not on the actual
dropout itself.

Dave Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

I have heard reports that many titanium frames are having problems
with the dropouts cracking.

What brand(s) of frames? Where did you hear this? How many is many?

Anyplace

Quoted message said:

we can see these 'reports'.

Or is this an example of a "I heard it from a friend who's cousin

said that

Quoted message said:

he had read it somewhere on the internet" report?

Quoted message said:

Clarification:

Apparently the cracks occur on the weld dropout not on the actual
dropout itself.

I will stand by my statement of not hearing, from any source, about dropout
failures of *any kind* during the time I've been riding bicycles.
Additionally, other well respected bicycle industry people (A. Muzi, Mike
Jacoubowsky and Mark Hickey) who collectively have a ton more experience
that I, have said as much the same.

There *may* have been an instance of a dropout weld cracking from a Merlin
or Litespeed occuring that your bicycle shop owner friend heard of, and told
you about. However this does not translate to: "I have heard reports that
many titanium frames are having problems with the dropouts cracking." in any
way shape or form. If he made such a statement, it was incorrect at best and
reckless at least. Is he a Litespeed or Merlin dealer? If not, I would then
suspect his motives. If he is, I would then think he's foolish to repeat
such an inaccuracy.

If Litespeed, Merlin or any other brand of bicycles had 'many frames with
cracked dropouts', don't you think one would have heard it from a variety of
sources? Particulary off the net?

Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles said:

Quoted message said:

Clarification:

Apparently the cracks occur on the weld dropout not on the actual
dropout itself.

As long as you're buying a new bike (and thus with a warranty), this
shouldn't be a major consideration. Used bikes, that's another thing,

as

Quoted message said:

most manufacturers warrant product only for the original owner.

Well that goes without saying. But there was also reports that
Litespeed has been taking as long as 3 months to repair a frame. I
spoke to another friend who is Litespeed dealer and apparently their
service depends upon how large a Litespeed dealer you are dealing with.

Quoted message said:

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Clarification:

Apparently the cracks occur on the weld dropout not on the actual
dropout itself.

Dave Thompson said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> I have heard reports that many titanium frames are having

problems

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> with the dropouts cracking.
What brand(s) of frames? Where did you hear this? How many is

many?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyplace

Quoted message said:

we can see these 'reports'.

Or is this an example of a "I heard it from a friend who's cousin

said that

Quoted message said:

he had read it somewhere on the internet" report?

Dave Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

Clarification:

Apparently the cracks occur on the weld dropout not on the actual
dropout itself.

I will stand by my statement of not hearing, from any source, about dropout
failures of *any kind* during the time I've been riding bicycles.

Hmm... I had a rear dropout snap at the point where it entered the
chainstay (left side, IIRC). They bike had had 17 years of hard use, so
I wasn't too disappointed, but the distributor still paid to have new
dropouts installed, which was excellent service.

So now you've heard.

Oh! Perhaps you meant *titanium* dropouts. You should have said.

Still, when 17-year-old heavily-used titanium frames become common, you
may hear of those failing too. I think that should be coming up in,
what, two years or so? [1]

I don't think titanium frames are "prone" to cracking, but I doubt they
are going to crack significantly *less* than other well-made frames, either.

[1] I have the impression that titanium *everything* started being
marketed heavily about when the Soviet Union collapsed - I assume it was
more available from US suppliers since defense demand dropped, and I
recall that Russian suppliers started seeking world markets.

Mark Janeba

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:28:34 -0800, Mark Janeba
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

[1] I have the impression that titanium *everything* started being
marketed heavily about when the Soviet Union collapsed - I assume it was
more available from US suppliers since defense demand dropped, and I
recall that Russian suppliers started seeking world markets.

Mark Janeba

Dear Mark,

Search for "Illmenite" here:

http://www.bikepro.com/products/metals/titan.html

The Urals have lots of low-grade ore, and the Russians
needed something to exchange for foreign goods.

My first experience with titanium was when a friend bought a
Russian military surplus titanium crowbar. I don't know
whether it gave a harsh feel when ripping wooden crates
apart, but it was impressively lighter than a steel crowbar.

No one seems to make aluminum or carbon-fiber crowbars, so
I've never tested them.

Carl Fogel

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:28:34 -0800, Mark Janeba
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

[1] I have the impression that titanium *everything* started being
marketed heavily about when the Soviet Union collapsed - I assume it was
more available from US suppliers since defense demand dropped, and I
recall that Russian suppliers started seeking world markets.

Mark Janeba

Dear Mark,

Search for "Illmenite" here:

http://www.bikepro.com/products/metals/titan.html

The Urals have lots of low-grade ore, and the Russians
needed something to exchange for foreign goods.

My first experience with titanium was when a friend bought a
Russian military surplus titanium crowbar. I don't know
whether it gave a harsh feel when ripping wooden crates
apart, but it was impressively lighter than a steel crowbar.

No one seems to make aluminum or carbon-fiber crowbars, so
I've never tested them.

Carl Fogel

I had some spanners that came in the tool kit of an old BMW motorbike (in my
previous life). They were incredibly light and strong. In hindsight I think
they were made from Titanium. I should of kept the tools when I sold the
bike. I've never seen any since.

Marty

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:28:34 -0800, Mark Janeba
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

[1] I have the impression that titanium *everything* started being
marketed heavily about when the Soviet Union collapsed - I assume it was
more available from US suppliers since defense demand dropped, and I
recall that Russian suppliers started seeking world markets.

Mark Janeba

Dear Mark,

Search for "Illmenite" here:

http://www.bikepro.com/products/metals/titan.html

Carl Fogel

The ironic thing about Illmenite is that it's very heavy. Near where I live
is a port (Bunbury, Western Australia) where they load Illmenite on to ships
and it looks like black beach sand which sort of glitters in the sun. It's
mined near Capel which is only about 20 km from Busselton where the Western
Australian Ironman event was recently held.

Marty

(am)>>I have never seen or heard of a cracked titanium frame
end of any brand or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

model.
Downtubes, seat clusters, bridges, cable stops yes but never a gear tab
crack.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Andrew: I've seen Ti rear dropout failures, but not too many, and only
enough to realize that it doesn't matter what material you make a frame out
of, if you don't do it right, things happen. Likewise I've seen aluminum &
many steel rear dropout failures. Doesn't mean anything, unless the bike has
a zillion miles on it (so something, sometime, is going to eventually
fail!).

The only significance to Ti frame failures is that some believe Ti to be
some sort of indestructible material that nothing ever happens to. So
disappointing (to the uninformed) to realize that all materials are the same
in that regard...

Yes I'm sure it can and does happen.
There are a gazillion steel frames for every Ti frame on the
road, which affects frequency of experience.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Dave Thompson said:

I will stand by my statement of not hearing, from any source, about
dropout
failures of *any kind* during the time I've been riding bicycles.
Additionally, other well respected bicycle industry people (A. Muzi, Mike
Jacoubowsky and Mark Hickey) who collectively have a ton more experience
that I, have said as much the same.

Well, now you've hear from Mark Janeba. Add me. If you count fork ends as
dropouts, I actually had two failures on the same bike. One of the fork
ends broke (forgot which one), and also the right rear dropout. The fork
end cracked while riding a pretty strong tailwind - I hit 37 mph on flatish
road just before noticing something wrong. The bike was less than a year
old. Less than a year later, the right rear dropout broke all the way
through while riding up a steep section of Topanga Canyon Rd. (I was
reminded of that road today because of this picture:
http://tinyurl.com/66lsc .) I managed to ride home carefully after both
failures.

Andrew Lee

[email hidden] wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Well that goes without saying. But there was also reports that
Litespeed has been taking as long as 3 months to repair a frame.

Well I guess I can comment on that as my Classic chainstay cracked
right at the dropout weld about 1k from the top of Mt Ventoux in the
second week of a 7 week visit to France. When I got home my dealer
sent it to Litespeed, and after about 8 weeks called to see where it
was. "In the paint shop" they said, "we are going to give it a new
paint job and it is in the queue". About 3 weeks after that is showed
up suddenly, not painted, no reason given.

They did do a great job on the weld though which is what I was really
concerned about.

[email hidden] wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Well that goes without saying. But there was also reports that
Litespeed has been taking as long as 3 months to repair a frame.

Well I guess I can comment on that as my Classic chainstay cracked
right at the dropout weld about 1k from the top of Mt Ventoux in the
second week of a 7 week visit to France. When I got home my dealer
sent it to Litespeed, and after about 8 weeks called to see where it
was. "In the paint shop" they said, "we are going to give it a new
paint job and it is in the queue". About 3 weeks after that is showed
up suddenly, not painted, no reason given.

They did do a great job on the weld though which is what I was really
concerned about.

<< Then again, the number of Habanero frames that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have had a BENT dropout is the same, so I think it's safe to say
that they might be overbuilt >><BR><BR>

errrr, thanks for playing. I have straightened one Habanero der hanger and
dropout. Bends a lot like steel.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

(Qui si parla Campagnolo ) said:

<< Then again, the number of Habanero frames that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> have had a BENT dropout is the same, so I think it's safe to say
> that they might be overbuilt >><BR><BR>

errrr, thanks for playing. I have straightened one Habanero der hanger and
dropout. Bends a lot like steel.

That would be the first bent Habby hanger I've heard of. I tested my
own road bike's hanger by crashing it heavily in a pack pileup and
bent the Campy Chorus RD about 25 degrees off axis without even
misaligning the hanger... so I'm curious about what happened to
actually bend one. Scary.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Just added two photos of a cracked Litespeed:
http://www.geocities.com/dianne_1234/bikes/broken/broken.htm

Since I don't remember the details, I feel a bit strange about posting
these without more info. If anyone knows more about them, please let
me know.