Titanium

Bikesoiler said:

I want an MTB frame for singlespeed that can run disk brakes & the
Kona/sliding drop-out looks to be one of the best solutions. Does the
Explosif drop-out have a derailer mount.?

Looking at the pic (in the link I posted) it does appear to have
deraileur mount. I think I've seen someone mention that you can actuall
buy a der. mount dropout AND a non-der. dropout for this bike (non-der
for "proper" SS design 🙂)

But Kona Aus don't bring this frame in! I know, I've emailed them abou
it. Not enough demand

hipp

-

flyingdutch said:

Makes you wonder if this design isnt going to become more common. Simple
solution always the best, as usual

Well, it's not just Kona using it. I've seen it on othe
manufacturers bikes

On-One doesn't make EBB Inbreds any more.. a sign

hipp

-

"Marty Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There is a link to one here. http://www.andreyo.com/_wsn/page3.html

Cool - that looks vaguely like my Ti "dream bike". Not the pedals though :-)
And I've got no decals on it, just raw titanium.

cheers,
Jeff

Marty Wallace said:

Why do you assume they aren't polished?
There is a link to one here. http://www.andreyo.com/_wsn/page3.htmlhttp-
://www.andreyo.com/_wsn/page3.html
Marty

Your right! Reading back, another mentions he paid extra to get
duller finish

So what does the frame weigh, do you know? (not that I couldnt lose mor
weight off my butt, mind :-)

So, the Andreyo bike mentioned above. How did you spec it to them an
what variables (if any) did you list or was it just a case of "I'll hav
it XXcm size?

-

I've got one.
Bought it 18 months ago and really can't complain. I got fed up with the
bead blasted from (dull grey) so I bought a buffing wheel to polish it up.

The bike was made to the dimensions I sent (72.5 degree seat angle, 72 head,
51cm seat tube and 54.5 top tube, 41cm stays and 7.5 cm bb drop.) I asked
for the tope tube to slope slightly like a semi compact.
I asked for 41 cm seat stays but they wrote and told me they would be too
short and lengthened them for me by 5mm. As it turns out the back wheel
would only rub the seat tube if I used 28mm tyres so I could have gotten
away with 41cm.
The braze on f/derailleur hanger is a little low. I can only use a 50 tooth
big ring, which is no problem for me as I only race with a 50 anyway...so
you may want to specify for a 53 if you need it.

I had to shim the 27.2mm seat post as it wouldn't bite enough. A little bit
of coke can did the trick.
The frame weighs 1.6 kg and I've lost count how many people have asked if
the bike is a Merlin or Litespeed.
The frame is very stiff to ride. The tubing diameters (at least on mine) are
somewhat oversize... not aluminium size just larger than steel.

Forget any [censored] you've heard about titanium give a soft plush ride.
These are stiff racing frames. Whenever I go back to my deda 03 steel bike
it feels like an armchair, not that I ride it that much anymore as the racey
feel of my ti bike feels better.

The only thing I would change would be the head tube length which I did not
specify and consequently have 20mm of spacers under the stem. I would like
to only have about 10mm or so.

I also bought one of their stems which is fine for Audax, touring etc but I
found it not stiff enough for sprinting, and I'm not all that strong. I set
up an unnerving wobble in the front end, but if you don't race it doesn't
matter. The stem weighs 160grams.

I did have a little problem with the payment though.
I went to the commonwealth bank to deposit the money in their account. I
paid $US320 for the frame, $US80 for the postage, and $A27 to the bank for
the transaction.
What the [censored] at the bank didn't tell me till later was the money goes
from the Commonwealth bank to the Bank Of New York where they took their cut
and then into the Bank Of China account of the manufacturer...and you
guessed it, the Bank of China took their cut. In the end I was $US27 short.
After a few Emails they were going to add $27 to my next bill but I decided
just to pay it. How can I justify ripping the manufacturer off just because
banks are [censored].

Anyway, if I were to do it again I would try to go directly through the Bank
of China and only pay one set of fees.

I did have to pay customs on the frame which was $80 or so and another $30
to the courier for a customs release or some bloody thing.

Was it worth it? Definitely

If anybody wants any more information just Email me.
And if you are going to buy one of these bikes I've been wanting to buy some
of their skewers but can't justify the freight... so if you wouldn't mind
chucking them in with your bike I'll reimburse the cost of these.

Peter...phew

"flyingdutch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Been following this on Cyclingplus forum for a few moths and finally a
few people have bought from these guys in china who make Ti bikes (road,
Tri, mtb, cyclocross plus anything else you can think of)

They build custom to your specs, send drawings first for your signoff
and from the feedback from the UK guys so far the quality is pretty good

I enquired recently with them and you can buy a roadframe for $500Oz
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that doesnt include charges/shipping/taxes (how much freight can a Ti
frame be tho?)

""Hi Sir: Thanks for your e-mail. Our price of 56cm titanium road frame
is FOB XI'AN USD345.00/set.The price of titanium custom road frame is
FOB XI'AN USD395.00/set.

Please you see our attached price list.Also please you visit our website
xacd.com.cnxacd.com.cnOpen ↗[/url] and ]http://www.ti-product.com.""

The attached pricelist includes everything you could imagine that goes
on a bike minus grouppo (bolts/levers/stem/forks/bars, etc)

$500Oz !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--

"Peter Vesel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've got one.
Bought it 18 months ago and really can't complain. I got fed up with the
bead blasted from (dull grey) so I bought a buffing wheel to polish it up.

The bike was made to the dimensions I sent (72.5 degree seat angle, 72

head,

Quoted message said:

51cm seat tube and 54.5 top tube, 41cm stays and 7.5 cm bb drop.) I asked
for the tope tube to slope slightly like a semi compact.
I asked for 41 cm seat stays but they wrote and told me they would be too
short and lengthened them for me by 5mm. As it turns out the back wheel
would only rub the seat tube if I used 28mm tyres so I could have gotten
away with 41cm.
The braze on f/derailleur hanger is a little low. I can only use a 50

tooth

Quoted message said:

big ring, which is no problem for me as I only race with a 50 anyway...so
you may want to specify for a 53 if you need it.

I had to shim the 27.2mm seat post as it wouldn't bite enough. A little

bit

Quoted message said:

of coke can did the trick.
The frame weighs 1.6 kg and I've lost count how many people have asked if
the bike is a Merlin or Litespeed.
The frame is very stiff to ride. The tubing diameters (at least on mine)

are

Quoted message said:

somewhat oversize... not aluminium size just larger than steel.

Forget any [censored] you've heard about titanium give a soft plush ride.
These are stiff racing frames. Whenever I go back to my deda 03 steel bike
it feels like an armchair, not that I ride it that much anymore as the

racey

Quoted message said:

feel of my ti bike feels better.

The only thing I would change would be the head tube length which I did

not

Quoted message said:

specify and consequently have 20mm of spacers under the stem. I would like
to only have about 10mm or so.

I also bought one of their stems which is fine for Audax, touring etc but

I

Quoted message said:

found it not stiff enough for sprinting, and I'm not all that strong. I

set

Quoted message said:

up an unnerving wobble in the front end, but if you don't race it doesn't
matter. The stem weighs 160grams.

I did have a little problem with the payment though.
I went to the commonwealth bank to deposit the money in their account. I
paid $US320 for the frame, $US80 for the postage, and $A27 to the bank for
the transaction.
What the [censored] at the bank didn't tell me till later was the money

goes

Quoted message said:

from the Commonwealth bank to the Bank Of New York where they took their

cut

Quoted message said:

and then into the Bank Of China account of the manufacturer...and you
guessed it, the Bank of China took their cut. In the end I was $US27

short.

Quoted message said:

After a few Emails they were going to add $27 to my next bill but I

decided

Quoted message said:

just to pay it. How can I justify ripping the manufacturer off just

because

Quoted message said:

banks are [censored].

Anyway, if I were to do it again I would try to go directly through the

Bank

Quoted message said:

of China and only pay one set of fees.

I had a similar problem, but through Bankwest. I asked at my local bank and
they insisted that Bankwest hadn't taken the missing money. So I was
thinking it was the Bank of China. But then I rang the head office of
Bankwest in Perth and the guy there was "pretty sure" that Bankwest hadn't
deducted any money on top of the $35 I'd already paid up front. I asked if
he could find out for sure. So a few minutes later he comes back and says, "
that Bankwests agents that handle their international transactions had
applied a charge, about US$20." [censored]!

Quoted message said:

I did have to pay customs on the frame which was $80 or so and another $30
to the courier for a customs release or some bloody thing.

I haven't paid anything on my three frames.

The trick to get around the short changing thing from the banks is to order
a stem and handlebars and seat post. Then if the money is short you can drop
off the seatpost or something.

Quoted message said:

Was it worth it? Definitely

If anybody wants any more information just Email me.
And if you are going to buy one of these bikes I've been wanting to buy

some

Quoted message said:

of their skewers but can't justify the freight... so if you wouldn't mind
chucking them in with your bike I'll reimburse the cost of these.

Peter...phew

I'm happy with mine too.

Marty

By the way these carbon fibre bikes look like good valve too.
At least it could be a place to buy a cheap fork.

Peter

"Peter Vesel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've got one.
Bought it 18 months ago and really can't complain. I got fed up with the
bead blasted from (dull grey) so I bought a buffing wheel to polish it up.

The bike was made to the dimensions I sent (72.5 degree seat angle, 72

head,

Quoted message said:

51cm seat tube and 54.5 top tube, 41cm stays and 7.5 cm bb drop.) I asked
for the tope tube to slope slightly like a semi compact.
I asked for 41 cm seat stays but they wrote and told me they would be too
short and lengthened them for me by 5mm. As it turns out the back wheel
would only rub the seat tube if I used 28mm tyres so I could have gotten
away with 41cm.
The braze on f/derailleur hanger is a little low. I can only use a 50

tooth

Quoted message said:

big ring, which is no problem for me as I only race with a 50 anyway...so
you may want to specify for a 53 if you need it.

I had to shim the 27.2mm seat post as it wouldn't bite enough. A little

bit

Quoted message said:

of coke can did the trick.
The frame weighs 1.6 kg and I've lost count how many people have asked if
the bike is a Merlin or Litespeed.
The frame is very stiff to ride. The tubing diameters (at least on mine)

are

Quoted message said:

somewhat oversize... not aluminium size just larger than steel.

Forget any [censored] you've heard about titanium give a soft plush ride.
These are stiff racing frames. Whenever I go back to my deda 03 steel bike
it feels like an armchair, not that I ride it that much anymore as the

racey

Quoted message said:

feel of my ti bike feels better.

The only thing I would change would be the head tube length which I did

not

Quoted message said:

specify and consequently have 20mm of spacers under the stem. I would like
to only have about 10mm or so.

I also bought one of their stems which is fine for Audax, touring etc but

I

Quoted message said:

found it not stiff enough for sprinting, and I'm not all that strong. I

set

Quoted message said:

up an unnerving wobble in the front end, but if you don't race it doesn't
matter. The stem weighs 160grams.

I did have a little problem with the payment though.
I went to the commonwealth bank to deposit the money in their account. I
paid $US320 for the frame, $US80 for the postage, and $A27 to the bank for
the transaction.
What the [censored] at the bank didn't tell me till later was the money

goes

Quoted message said:

from the Commonwealth bank to the Bank Of New York where they took their

cut

Quoted message said:

and then into the Bank Of China account of the manufacturer...and you
guessed it, the Bank of China took their cut. In the end I was $US27

short.

Quoted message said:

After a few Emails they were going to add $27 to my next bill but I

decided

Quoted message said:

just to pay it. How can I justify ripping the manufacturer off just

because

Quoted message said:

banks are [censored].

Anyway, if I were to do it again I would try to go directly through the

Bank

Quoted message said:

of China and only pay one set of fees.

I did have to pay customs on the frame which was $80 or so and another $30
to the courier for a customs release or some bloody thing.

Was it worth it? Definitely

If anybody wants any more information just Email me.
And if you are going to buy one of these bikes I've been wanting to buy

some

Quoted message said:

of their skewers but can't justify the freight... so if you wouldn't mind
chucking them in with your bike I'll reimburse the cost of these.

Peter...phew

"flyingdutch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Been following this on Cyclingplus forum for a few moths and finally a
few people have bought from these guys in china who make Ti bikes (road,
Tri, mtb, cyclocross plus anything else you can think of)

They build custom to your specs, send drawings first for your signoff
and from the feedback from the UK guys so far the quality is pretty good

I enquired recently with them and you can buy a roadframe for $500Oz
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that doesnt include charges/shipping/taxes (how much freight can a Ti
frame be tho?)

""Hi Sir: Thanks for your e-mail. Our price of 56cm titanium road frame
is FOB XI'AN USD345.00/set.The price of titanium custom road frame is
FOB XI'AN USD395.00/set.

Please you see our attached price list.Also please you visit our website
xacd.com.cnxacd.com.cnOpen ↗[/url] and ]http://www.ti-product.com.""

The attached pricelist includes everything you could imagine that goes
on a bike minus grouppo (bolts/levers/stem/forks/bars, etc)

$500Oz !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--

"Marty Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Vesel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've got one.
Bought it 18 months ago and really can't complain. I got fed up with the
bead blasted from (dull grey) so I bought a buffing wheel to polish it

up.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The bike was made to the dimensions I sent (72.5 degree seat angle, 72

head,

Quoted message said:

51cm seat tube and 54.5 top tube, 41cm stays and 7.5 cm bb drop.) I

asked

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for the tope tube to slope slightly like a semi compact.
I asked for 41 cm seat stays but they wrote and told me they would be

too

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

short and lengthened them for me by 5mm. As it turns out the back wheel
would only rub the seat tube if I used 28mm tyres so I could have gotten
away with 41cm.
The braze on f/derailleur hanger is a little low. I can only use a 50

tooth

Quoted message said:

big ring, which is no problem for me as I only race with a 50

anyway...so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you may want to specify for a 53 if you need it.

I had to shim the 27.2mm seat post as it wouldn't bite enough. A little

bit

Quoted message said:

of coke can did the trick.
The frame weighs 1.6 kg and I've lost count how many people have asked

if

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the bike is a Merlin or Litespeed.
The frame is very stiff to ride. The tubing diameters (at least on mine)

are

Quoted message said:

somewhat oversize... not aluminium size just larger than steel.

Forget any [censored] you've heard about titanium give a soft plush ride.
These are stiff racing frames. Whenever I go back to my deda 03 steel

bike

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it feels like an armchair, not that I ride it that much anymore as the

racey

Quoted message said:

feel of my ti bike feels better.

The only thing I would change would be the head tube length which I did

not

Quoted message said:

specify and consequently have 20mm of spacers under the stem. I would

like

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to only have about 10mm or so.

I also bought one of their stems which is fine for Audax, touring etc

but

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

found it not stiff enough for sprinting, and I'm not all that strong. I

set

Quoted message said:

up an unnerving wobble in the front end, but if you don't race it

doesn't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

matter. The stem weighs 160grams.

I did have a little problem with the payment though.
I went to the commonwealth bank to deposit the money in their account. I
paid $US320 for the frame, $US80 for the postage, and $A27 to the bank

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the transaction.
What the [censored] at the bank didn't tell me till later was the money

goes

Quoted message said:

from the Commonwealth bank to the Bank Of New York where they took their

cut

Quoted message said:

and then into the Bank Of China account of the manufacturer...and you
guessed it, the Bank of China took their cut. In the end I was $US27

short.

Quoted message said:

After a few Emails they were going to add $27 to my next bill but I

decided

Quoted message said:

just to pay it. How can I justify ripping the manufacturer off just

because

Quoted message said:

banks are [censored].

Anyway, if I were to do it again I would try to go directly through the

Bank

Quoted message said:

of China and only pay one set of fees.

I had a similar problem, but through Bankwest. I asked at my local bank

and

Quoted message said:

they insisted that Bankwest hadn't taken the missing money. So I was
thinking it was the Bank of China. But then I rang the head office of
Bankwest in Perth and the guy there was "pretty sure" that Bankwest hadn't
deducted any money on top of the $35 I'd already paid up front. I asked if
he could find out for sure. So a few minutes later he comes back and says,

"

Quoted message said:

that Bankwests agents that handle their international transactions had
applied a charge, about US$20." [censored]!

Quoted message said:

I did have to pay customs on the frame which was $80 or so and another

$30

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to the courier for a customs release or some bloody thing.

I haven't paid anything on my three frames.

The trick to get around the short changing thing from the banks is to

order

Quoted message said:

a stem and handlebars and seat post. Then if the money is short you can

drop

Quoted message said:

off the seatpost or something.

Quoted message said:

Was it worth it? Definitely

If anybody wants any more information just Email me.
And if you are going to buy one of these bikes I've been wanting to buy

some

Quoted message said:

of their skewers but can't justify the freight... so if you wouldn't

mind

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

chucking them in with your bike I'll reimburse the cost of these.

Peter...phew

I'm happy with mine too.

Marty

I might add Marty put me on to these people

peter

Thanx to Marty and Peter for all of that, very goo

Are you guys in Oz? (just checking that all those taxes/duties yo
mentioned are erelevant to moi

What headset style specs did you get/ask for

-

"flyingdutch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanx to Marty and Peter for all of that, very good

Are you guys in Oz? (just checking that all those taxes/duties you
mentioned are erelevant to moi)

What headset style specs did you get/ask for?

I live in Western Australia, the best part.
I didn't specify any particular type of headset. It's an old fashioned
non-intergrated type. As a general rule I don't like to specify things to
frame builders. They build hundreds of the things and I feel that if I
specify something it makes them have to compromise on something else. Leave
frame building to the experts I say!

Marty

I'm just South of Sydney.
I didn't specify any type of headset either.. other than a 1 1/8" head tube.
I want to be able to fit parts I buy from just about anywhere

Peter

"Marty Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"flyingdutch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanx to Marty and Peter for all of that, very good

Are you guys in Oz? (just checking that all those taxes/duties you
mentioned are erelevant to moi)

What headset style specs did you get/ask for?

I live in Western Australia, the best part.
I didn't specify any particular type of headset. It's an old fashioned
non-intergrated type. As a general rule I don't like to specify things to
frame builders. They build hundreds of the things and I feel that if I
specify something it makes them have to compromise on something else.

Leave

Quoted message said:

frame building to the experts I say!

Marty

Peter Vesel said:

The bike was made to the dimensions I sent (72.5 degree seat angle, 72
head, 51cm seat tube and 54.5 top tube, 41cm stays and 7.5 cm bb drop.) I
asked for the tope tube to slope slightly like a semi compact.

How do you divine exactly what sizes you want ?

Is this something you know from years of riding, or is
it something that can be learned ?!

-kt

I concur! I had a cheap Ti frame built in 1999 by a Russian aerospac
company on my specs. Unfortunately, although I gave them the ke
measurements/angles, I didn't specify that the chain stays should b
lengthened because the seat tube angle was more relaxed. When I finall
got around to building the bike up, I couldn't fit the back wheel in!
But last year I found a guy in Sydney who specialised in Ti welding, an
had seen a few bikes in his time as well. The best solution was to carv
out a chunk from the inside of each of the rear dropouts to effectivel
move them back 5mm (and build up the other side of course). I can no
fit the wheel in fine, and I get quite a bit of clearance with a 20m
tyre, but somewhat less with a 23mm. So I finally got to ride it afte
four years

The price? If I'd bought a standard frame/fork/seatpost, it was abou
AU$600, but my "custom" job was about AU$1000. No duty as I got it i
Belgium and brought it home with me

I've also heard that from a certain bike manufacturer in Taiwan, yo
can get a carbon frame for 150 euros = about AU$250. Provided yo
order 50 :-

cheers, Jeff Hi Read your reply about a guy in Sydney doing some T
welding. I have a Ti frame which I bought second hand about ten year
ago, also I think it's Russian to. Not a bad frame 'but' were the sea
stay and chain meet on the right side there is no cut back so th
cassette hits the chain stay. I had the wheel dished so it misses, tha
was with a 7 speed. Now I have dusted it off and will use as a commut
bike. If this welder can cut out some of the chain stay and fill an
weld it I can fit a ten-speed set-up. Do you have his name and phon
number? Thanks a lot Tony :

-

"kingsley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Vesel said:

The bike was made to the dimensions I sent (72.5 degree seat angle, 72
head, 51cm seat tube and 54.5 top tube, 41cm stays and 7.5 cm bb drop.)

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

asked for the tope tube to slope slightly like a semi compact.

How do you divine exactly what sizes you want ?

Is this something you know from years of riding, or is
it something that can be learned ?!

-kt

Cyclefit

Steve Hogg in Sydney or John Kennedy in Melbourne

Peter

I was going to get a 29er mountain bike built with Changda until I saw this
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=12648. Now I've decided to pay the
extra and get a Dean Ti instead. Cheers Steven

"tony@canberra" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I concur! I had a cheap Ti frame built in 1999 by a Russian aerospace
company on my specs. Unfortunately, although I gave them the key
measurements/angles, I didn't specify that the chain stays should be
lengthened because the seat tube angle was more relaxed. When I finally
got around to building the bike up, I couldn't fit the back wheel in!!
But last year I found a guy in Sydney who specialised in Ti welding, and
had seen a few bikes in his time as well. The best solution was to carve
out a chunk from the inside of each of the rear dropouts to effectively
move them back 5mm (and build up the other side of course). I can now
fit the wheel in fine, and I get quite a bit of clearance with a 20mm
tyre, but somewhat less with a 23mm. So I finally got to ride it after
four years!

The price? If I'd bought a standard frame/fork/seatpost, it was about
AU$600, but my "custom" job was about AU$1000. No duty as I got it in
Belgium and brought it home with me.

I've also heard that from a certain bike manufacturer in Taiwan, you
can get a carbon frame for 150 euros = about AU$250. Provided you
order 50 :-)

cheers, Jeff Hi Read your reply about a guy in Sydney doing some Ti
welding. I have a Ti frame which I bought second hand about ten years
ago, also I think it's Russian to. Not a bad frame 'but' were the seat
stay and chain meet on the right side there is no cut back so the
cassette hits the chain stay. I had the wheel dished so it misses, that
was with a 7 speed. Now I have dusted it off and will use as a commute
bike. If this welder can cut out some of the chain stay and fill and
weld it I can fit a ten-speed set-up. Do you have his name and phone
number? Thanks a lot Tony 😄

--

"Steven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was going to get a 29er mountain bike built with Changda until I saw

this

Quoted message said:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=12648. Now I've decided to pay the
extra and get a Dean Ti instead. Cheers Steven

"tony@canberra" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Have a look at the review of this Litespeed Blade and try and convince me
that American made bikes are made to a higher quality.

Quote: "Rough weld quality in difficult to weld areas detracts from the
Blade's appearance and function. The upper left arrow indicates a seam where
there is no weld at all, but an open gap between tubes. "

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/reviews/blade.shtml

Marty