tires with Kevlar

pam_in_sc said:

I was inspired by a posting here about good experience with the
Bontrager Race Lite Hardcase. I asked at my LBS, which recommended

the

Quoted message said:

Continental Ultra GatorSkin. Is that as good a tire?

I have to wait for them to be ordered, as I want 700x25s. A lot of
rough roads here, and as well as fewer flats I would like a smoother

ride.

I have a pair of those on my Fuji Roubaix Pro, that size. Only about
1000 miles on them, but no flats, reasonable wear, fast enough for me.
YMMV.

RichC

pam_in_sc <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> I was inspired by a posting here about good experience with the
:> Bontrager Race Lite Hardcase. I asked at my LBS, which recommended
:> the Continental Ultra GatorSkin. Is that as good a tire?
:>
:> I have to wait for them to be ordered, as I want 700x25s. A lot of
:> rough roads here, and as well as fewer flats I would like a smoother
:> ride.
:>

I was having a lot of flats early last year on the stock tires (with my
tuffy tube liner, too). After about 800 miles, I bought some kevlar tires
from performance.com and dropped the liner. I haven't had a flat in 2000
miles. We'll see how it goes...

Roger Zoul said:

Quoted message said:

I was inspired by a posting here about good experience with the
Bontrager Race Lite Hardcase. I asked at my LBS, which recommended
the Continental Ultra GatorSkin. Is that as good a tire?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have to wait for them to be ordered, as I want 700x25s. A lot of
rough roads here, and as well as fewer flats I would like a
smoother ride.

Quoted message said:

I was having a lot of flats early last year on the stock tires (with
my Tuffy tube liner, too). After about 800 miles, I bought some
Kevlar tires from performance.com and dropped the liner. I haven't
had a flat in 2000 miles. We'll see how it goes...

What caused all these flats and how did you repair them. Your
description makes the experience sound so cryptic. What was the tire
liner doing, why don't you use it now and what did Kevlar do that the
former tires did not?

Do the former tires have many cuts in the tread and do the new ones
not have any? Sharp objects must first go through tread rubber to
discover a tire liner or Kevlar band in the casing.

Please cast some light on this so I can understand the effects.

[email hidden]

On Tue, 17 May 2005 15:19:21 -0400, pam_in_sc <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I was inspired by a posting here about good experience with the
Bontrager Race Lite Hardcase. I asked at my LBS, which recommended the
Continental Ultra GatorSkin. Is that as good a tire?

I have to wait for them to be ordered, as I want 700x25s. A lot of
rough roads here, and as well as fewer flats I would like a smoother ride.

Pam

Hi Pam, I've been running the Conti Ultra Gatorskins on both my bikes.
27x11/4 on the one and 700x25 on the LeMond.

I have 2500 miles on the LeMond's rear tire and the tire is in good
shape. I have had no flats on any of the Gatorskins.

I really like them, they are a decent performer and I like the ride. I
usually run 100-110psi.

Life is Good!
Jeff

Roger Zoul said:

pam_in_sc <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> I was inspired by a posting here about good experience with the
:> Bontrager Race Lite Hardcase. I asked at my LBS, which recommended
:> the Continental Ultra GatorSkin. Is that as good a tire?
:>
:> I have to wait for them to be ordered, as I want 700x25s. A lot of
:> rough roads here, and as well as fewer flats I would like a smoother
:> ride.
:>

I was having a lot of flats early last year on the stock tires (with my
tuffy tube liner, too). After about 800 miles, I bought some kevlar tires
from performance.com and dropped the liner. I haven't had a flat in 2000
miles. We'll see how it goes...

I suppose this response is more for Mr. Brandt than anyone else.

It's interesting you had flats with your Tuffy tire liners. I've never
had a flat with the Mr. Tuffys which have outlived four pairs of tires,
ranging from 700x20 to 700x28. The only problem I had was improper
installation, where I folded over the tail of the liners which rubbed a
weak spot into the tube until it popped. Nothing seems to penetrate the
Tuffys. I've have mostly glass framents, but the most impressive was a
thumbtack stuck in the tire that didn't go through the Tuffys.

Also, my experience with the Performance brand kevlar tires was good,
but they did not perform as well as the Tuffys with regular tires. But
how can you say no to a $9.99 sale for durable tires? The kevlars were
actually very durable and repelled glass fragments and thorns where
normal tires would have flatted. However, I rode through fresh
road-sealing tar (I was squeezed between two cars and could not go
around it), and realized too late that tar-coated shards of glass were
sticking to my tires. One can't expect even something like the touted
Gatorskins to survive that. The glass cut through the belt and tube.

The kevlar tires didn't cut as easily as normal tires. This made
digging out the glass actually a little difficult, and many holes looked
clean but still had shards deep inside. So, back to the Tuffys. Now
tire maintenance consists of digging out glass fragments which stopped
right at the liner.

In my opinion, the rolling resistance of the kevlar tires and the Tuffys
are both noticeably greater and responsiveness noticeably less than
mid-range quality tires, and their performance is not much different
from one another. Even though it's noticeable, to me, a commmuter and
weekend recreationalist, it's minor.
-C

Collin said:

In my opinion, the rolling resistance of the kevlar tires and the
Tuffys are both noticeably greater and responsiveness noticeably less
than mid-range quality tires, and their performance is not much
different from one another. Even though it's noticeable, to me, a
commmuter and weekend recreationalist, it's minor.

What does "responsiveness" mean in this context?

pam_in_sc said the following on 18/5/2005 3:19:

Quoted message said:

I was inspired by a posting here about good experience with the
Bontrager Race Lite Hardcase. I asked at my LBS, which recommended the
Continental Ultra GatorSkin. Is that as good a tire?

Yes, definitely. I had mine (also 700x25s) on for about 8000km now w/o
flats. The rear one is getting somewhat worn (what little tread there is
is almost gone), so I guess in another 2000km I will move the front tire
(which still looks very good) to the rear and mount a new front.

Quoted message said:

I have to wait for them to be ordered, as I want 700x25s. A lot of
rough roads here, and as well as fewer flats I would like a smoother ride.

Pam

[email hidden] wrote:
:> Roger Zoul writes:
:>
:> >> I was inspired by a posting here about good experience with the
:> >> Bontrager Race Lite Hardcase. I asked at my LBS, which
:> >> recommended the Continental Ultra GatorSkin. Is that as good a
:> >> tire?
:>
:> >> I have to wait for them to be ordered, as I want 700x25s. A lot
:> >> of rough roads here, and as well as fewer flats I would like a
:> >> smoother ride.
:>
:> > I was having a lot of flats early last year on the stock tires
:> > (with my Tuffy tube liner, too). After about 800 miles, I bought
:> > some Kevlar tires from performance.com and dropped the liner. I
:> > haven't had a flat in 2000 miles. We'll see how it goes...
:>
:> What caused all these flats and how did you repair them.

I can't honestly say what caused them. I do remember at least once the tube
blew out while I wasn't even on the bike (shortly after completing a ride -
while the liner was inserted). Another time while I was inflating the tire.
Seems like I remember long tears in the tube in both cases, BTW. Now, what
caused me to seek out the liners is that I was I was getting more flats
BEFORE inserting the liner, but I still got a few after the liner. And not
long after that, I started having other problems (see below).

Your
:> description makes the experience sound so cryptic. What was the tire
:> liner doing, why don't you use it now and what did Kevlar do that the
:> former tires did not?

You may remember (or NOT) all of the problems I was having with my rear
wheel going out of true due to spokes...I had the wheel rebuilt twice at the
LBS around that time. I ended up buying new handbuilt wheels. At the same
time, I bought new tires and decided to not use the Tuffy in the new tires
as I now had two sets of wheels and the new tires where kevlar. So, I'm not
trying to imply that the kevlar did something the liners didn't, but the
fact is I haven't had a single flat on the new wheels/tires and I did have
the two blow outs with the liner in.

:>
:> Do the former tires have many cuts in the tread and do the new ones
:> not have any? Sharp objects must first go through tread rubber to
:> discover a tire liner or Kevlar band in the casing.

There definitely are some cuts in the old tires (once reason leading me to
replace them). These tires were referred to as "fast" in the Specialized
marketing [censored]. I haven't a clue what that means, but they easily picked up
flats after I started riding. As I recall, most of the flats were simply
pinholes in the tube. A couple of times I do remember having what looked
like two small holes side-by-side in the tube. I distinctly remember that
the kevlars felt noticeably slower to ride on than the stock tires from
Specialized which, at first, made me wonder about the wisdom of using them
(that seemed to give some meaning to the term "fast" used my Specialized).
Those kevlars had a rough surface over the outside of the tire (the part
that contacts the road). Interestingly, after 2000 miles the surface is now
smooth - I've actually been wondering if I should replace the kevlars.
Comments?

:>
:> Please cast some light on this so I can understand the effects.
:>

Perhaps the two blowouts soundn't be considered flats in the same sense has
those pinhole flats. But at the time they just added to my frustration that
ended when I got new wheels and those kevlars! My first 800 miles of riding
were very eventful - with me getting stranded some 11 miles out it the
country!

Roger Zoul said:

[email hidden] wrote:
:> Roger Zoul writes:
:>
:> >> I was inspired by a posting here about good experience with the
:> >> Bontrager Race Lite Hardcase. I asked at my LBS, which
:> >> recommended the Continental Ultra GatorSkin. Is that as good a
:> >> tire?
:>
:> >> I have to wait for them to be ordered, as I want 700x25s. A lot
:> >> of rough roads here, and as well as fewer flats I would like a
:> >> smoother ride.
:>
:> > I was having a lot of flats early last year on the stock tires
:> > (with my Tuffy tube liner, too). After about 800 miles, I bought
:> > some Kevlar tires from performance.com and dropped the liner. I
:> > haven't had a flat in 2000 miles. We'll see how it goes...
:>
:> What caused all these flats and how did you repair them.

I can't honestly say what caused them. I do remember at least once the tube
blew out while I wasn't even on the bike (shortly after completing a ride -
while the liner was inserted). Another time while I was inflating the tire.
Seems like I remember long tears in the tube in both cases, BTW. Now, what
caused me to seek out the liners is that I was I was getting more flats
BEFORE inserting the liner, but I still got a few after the liner. And not
long after that, I started having other problems (see below).

Your
:> description makes the experience sound so cryptic. What was the tire
:> liner doing, why don't you use it now and what did Kevlar do that the
:> former tires did not?

You may remember (or NOT) all of the problems I was having with my rear
wheel going out of true due to spokes...I had the wheel rebuilt twice at the
LBS around that time. I ended up buying new handbuilt wheels. At the same
time, I bought new tires and decided to not use the Tuffy in the new tires
as I now had two sets of wheels and the new tires where kevlar. So, I'm not
trying to imply that the kevlar did something the liners didn't, but the
fact is I haven't had a single flat on the new wheels/tires and I did have
the two blow outs with the liner in.

:>
:> Do the former tires have many cuts in the tread and do the new ones
:> not have any? Sharp objects must first go through tread rubber to
:> discover a tire liner or Kevlar band in the casing.

There definitely are some cuts in the old tires (once reason leading me to
replace them). These tires were referred to as "fast" in the Specialized
marketing [censored]. I haven't a clue what that means, but they easily picked up
flats after I started riding. As I recall, most of the flats were simply
pinholes in the tube. A couple of times I do remember having what looked
like two small holes side-by-side in the tube.

Sounds like a pinch flat to me. Usually they are caused by striking
something that causes the tube to be pinched between the road and the rim.

Quoted message said:

I distinctly remember that
the kevlars felt noticeably slower to ride on than the stock tires from
Specialized which, at first, made me wonder about the wisdom of using them
(that seemed to give some meaning to the term "fast" used my Specialized).
Those kevlars had a rough surface over the outside of the tire (the part
that contacts the road). Interestingly, after 2000 miles the surface is now
smooth - I've actually been wondering if I should replace the kevlars.
Comments?

:>
:> Please cast some light on this so I can understand the effects.
:>

Perhaps the two blowouts soundn't be considered flats in the same sense has
those pinhole flats. But at the time they just added to my frustration that
ended when I got new wheels and those kevlars! My first 800 miles of riding
were very eventful - with me getting stranded some 11 miles out it the
country!

--
Roy Owen

Keep the leather side up,
and the rubber side down.

Jim Smith said:

Collin said:

In my opinion, the rolling resistance of the kevlar tires and the
Tuffys are both noticeably greater and responsiveness noticeably less
than mid-range quality tires, and their performance is not much
different from one another. Even though it's noticeable, to me, a
commmuter and weekend recreationalist, it's minor.

What does "responsiveness" mean in this context?

Its the feeling of how the tire responds to bumps or irregularities in
the road. It's my perception that the mid-level tires without kevlar or
liners on the same bike are more pliable and grip the road better. In
turn I think I can feel the road better. It could all be a matter of
perception. If someone were to test out coefficients of friction, spring
constants of the various rubber compounds, etc, they might find
negligible difference.

In contrast, the kevlar-belted tires or the tires with liners appear to
be less pliable, reducing the feeling I have with the road.

Collin <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> Jim Smith wrote:
:> > Collin <[email hidden]> writes:
:> >
:> >
:> >>In my opinion, the rolling resistance of the kevlar tires and the
:> >>Tuffys are both noticeably greater and responsiveness noticeably
:> >>less than mid-range quality tires, and their performance is not
:> >>much different from one another. Even though it's noticeable, to
:> >>me, a commmuter and weekend recreationalist, it's minor.
:> >
:> >
:> > What does "responsiveness" mean in this context?
:> >
:> Its the feeling of how the tire responds to bumps or irregularities
:> in the road. It's my perception that the mid-level tires without
:> kevlar or liners on the same bike are more pliable and grip the road
:> better. In turn I think I can feel the road better. It could all be
:> a matter of perception. If someone were to test out coefficients of
:> friction, spring constants of the various rubber compounds, etc,
:> they might find negligible difference.
:>
:> In contrast, the kevlar-belted tires or the tires with liners appear
:> to be less pliable, reducing the feeling I have with the road.

I remember when I first switched to those kevlar-belted tires, I definitely
felt some kind of difference. I thought of it mainly as increased drag or
loading.

Collin said:

One can't expect even something like the touted
Gatorskins to survive that. The glass cut through the belt and tube.

To my understanding the Gatorskins , are better than the average or
high performance tire, but by no means the ultimate in flat
protection. The Specialized Armadillo, is the one most often mentioned
for all around best flat protection. It is also said to be heavy and
slow. I have no experience with the Armadillos.

Another tire that served me well, was the Nashbar Prima 2 Plus in
27x11/4, usually on sale for $10.
http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=121&subcategory=1085&brand=&sku=2455&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=

If I couldn't afford the Gatorskins, I would definitely consider the
Prima 2 Plus.

The Gatorskins for me, have been easy to mount. I had a set of
Continental Attack/Force tires, that were a real challenge to mount.
Contental promotes the Gatorskin as high mileage tire, amongst other
things.
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/continental/bicycle/themes/tires/race/ultra_gatorskin/ultra_gatorskin_en.html

Has anyone tried the 700x23 folding version of the Gatorskin? I have
been using 700x25, so I haven't.

Life is Good!
Jeff

Roy Owen said:

Sounds like a pinch flat to me. Usually they are caused by striking
something that causes the tube to be pinched between the road and
the rim.

Your description could cause misunderstanding of the phenomenon.
Pinch flats occur from the tube being pinched between the tire
sidewall and the tire sidewall, not the road and the rim. The bead of
the rim may cause the compression, but never touches the tube... nor
does the road.

[email hidden]

Roger Zoul said:

:> to be less pliable, reducing the feeling I have with the road.

I remember when I first switched to those kevlar-belted tires, I definitely
felt some kind of difference. I thought of it mainly as increased drag or
loading.

Yes, I have definitely noticed a increase in rolling resistance. It has
made a normally pleasant commute to work, a pain. I put new
kevlar-belted tires from bike nashbar on my commuter last weekend. I'm
about ready to take them off and just deal with the flats. I have been
getting a lots of flats this year due to some road construction on my
route. Typically I will go a couple years between flats.

Anyway... any thoughts on increasing tire inflation pressure to help
make the new tires ride faster? These are marked to only inflate to 90
psi. Am I stupid to try 95 to 100? Am I asking for trouble, or is
doing something like this common practice? I am sure there some safety
margin calculated into the recommended pressure but how much and is
this a crazy idea?

Geary said:

Roger Zoul said:

:> to be less pliable, reducing the feeling I have with the road.

I remember when I first switched to those kevlar-belted tires, I
definitely
felt some kind of difference. I thought of it mainly as increased
drag or
loading.

Yes, I have definitely noticed a increase in rolling resistance. It has
made a normally pleasant commute to work, a pain. I put new
kevlar-belted tires from bike nashbar on my commuter last weekend. I'm
about ready to take them off and just deal with the flats. I have been
getting a lots of flats this year due to some road construction on my
route. Typically I will go a couple years between flats.

Anyway... any thoughts on increasing tire inflation pressure to help
make the new tires ride faster? These are marked to only inflate to 90
psi. Am I stupid to try 95 to 100? Am I asking for trouble, or is
doing something like this common practice? I am sure there some safety
margin calculated into the recommended pressure but how much and is
this a crazy idea?

Well I have kevlar belted tires on my hybrid, kendra brand, they are
rated for 85psi put I run them about 90psi with out any problems. I have
about 3300 miles on them. But then again they are 35mm tires. I think
the saftey margin on tires is pretty wide margin.

Ken
--
New cycling jersey: $49
new cycling shorts: $39
Not being a slave to the petrol pump: priceless.

Geary said:

Quoted message said:

I remember when I first switched to those kevlar-belted tires, I definitely
felt some kind of difference. I thought of it mainly as increased drag or
loading.

Yes, it is real. There are other things which also affect rolling
resistance, and a combination of a kevlar belt plus a thick sidewall would
make things worse, noticeably so.

Quoted message said:

Yes, I have definitely noticed a increase in rolling resistance. It has
made a normally pleasant commute to work, a pain. I put new
kevlar-belted tires from bike nashbar on my commuter last weekend. I'm
about ready to take them off and just deal with the flats.

It's not as if the belts really protect all that much anyway. Pointy
objects will still get through the belt, and such things are the leading
causes of flats.

Quoted message said:

Anyway... any thoughts on increasing tire inflation pressure to help
make the new tires ride faster?

Well, that will of course also increase your risk of flats...

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics, I can
_`\(,_ | assure you that mine are all greater. -- A. Einstein
(_)/ (_) |