Tires/pressures the pros use?

psycholist said:

I'm planning to build up a time trial bike this year. I'm doing a bit of
research on tires I might want to use and wheels I might want to acquire.

I keep reading about the superiority of tubular tires, but it seems like a
somewhat subjective assessment. Do the pros mosty use tubular tires? It
seems I've read in many places that they do. But I've also been reading
more about the pros using lower tire pressures. If they're gonna do that,
doesn't that sort of negate part of the reason for going with tubular tires?

I see that some of the tubular tires will accept over 200 lbs psi. Wouldn't
that make for a brutally harsh ride on most "real" road surfaces?

So what do the pros ride? Tubies or clinchers? And what kind of psi are
they running (road race vs. TT vs. crit)?

200psi would be fine for the track but not on the road, unless you're
talking about billiard-table German roads. From experience, having too
much front tyre pressure in a TT slows me down because I can feel every
piece of stone in the asphalt. The rear is less of a problem.

I also believe most of the pros still use tubulars, whatever the labels
on them suggest. The tubular tyre/rim combination is lighter, plus they
don't have to glue the things themselves or change a flat, so there's no
downside. I'd be surprised if they were running more than 120psi as
there are no real advantages to going higher.

psycholist said:

I'm planning to build up a time trial bike this year. I'm doing a bit of
research on tires I might want to use and wheels I might want to acquire.

I keep reading about the superiority of tubular tires, but it seems like a
somewhat subjective assessment. Do the pros mosty use tubular tires? It
seems I've read in many places that they do. But I've also been reading
more about the pros using lower tire pressures. If they're gonna do that,
doesn't that sort of negate part of the reason for going with tubular tires?

I see that some of the tubular tires will accept over 200 lbs psi. Wouldn't
that make for a brutally harsh ride on most "real" road surfaces?

So what do the pros ride? Tubies or clinchers? And what kind of psi are
they running (road race vs. TT vs. crit)?

Sorry for the rambling question. Lots of questions, actually.

Dear Psych,

The pros mostly run tubulars.

Partly it's tradition.

Partly it's having mechanics to glue them in place.

Partly it's a small potential weight savings.

Partly it's a mistaken belief that clinchers have much
higher rolling resistance.

Mostly it's the improved resistance to impact punctures. You
can run a tubular at much lower (and more comfortable)
pressures than a clincher before hitting a sharp bump will
cause a flat.

(There's no truth to the rumor that the pros believe that
sniffing the glue enhances performance and cannot be
detected.)

There are lots of other exciting considerations that I hope
to see discussed here. After I read them and enoy them, I
apply my roughly 125 psi air compressor to my helpless
clinchers and go for my usual ride.

Carl Fogel

psycholist said:

I'm planning to build up a time trial bike this year.

Better hurry, only two days left!

Quoted message said:

I see that some of the tubular tires will accept over 200 lbs psi.
Wouldn't that make for a brutally harsh ride on most "real" road surfaces?

I'd sure think so. As always, ideal pressure depends on tire width, rider's
weight, traction required, and comfort/rolling resistance tradeoffs. For a
very short TT over very smooth roads you could probably tolerate 150 psi. I
can't imagine running anything close to 200 psi.

Quoted message said:

So what do the pros ride? Tubies or clinchers? And what kind of psi are
they running (road race vs. TT vs. crit)?

They ride both. There has been debate here over what percentage use tubies.
I'd guess it's about 50-50.

Art Harris

The pros ride what they are paid to ride.
For an excellent thesis on the pros ;-) & cons of tubies see Josbt's
article in rbt's faq, & also @ Sheldon's web site.
In a nutshell, tubulars are superior, but the price in terms of hours
of work & mess causes very few amateur riders to use them.
Also there is the serious safety question if not glued on properly.
Particularly after changing a tire during a ride.
John

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

The pros ride what they are paid to ride.

Is that true? I am told they ride what they want to ride,
then they paint their sponsor's logos over the original labels.
That's for the top Euro pros at least. Same goes for saddles
and some other components.

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:59:44 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden]

(C) said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

The pros ride what they are paid to ride.

Is that true? I am told they ride what they want to ride,
then they paint their sponsor's logos over the original labels.
That's for the top Euro pros at least. Same goes for saddles
and some other components.

Dear Art, Dudley, and C,

The question of what percentage of European pros use
tubulars was thrashed in exciting detail (with no one
conceding victory as I recall) in this thread and another
mentioned in it:

http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?q=g:thl1336610824d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=e3NAc.3096%24WI2.2890%40lakeread05

Briefly, on some stages of the 2003 Tour the consensus of
the commentators seemed to be that everyone (100%) was using
tubulars, no matter what was claimed.

On other stages, figures like 80% tubulars were suggested.

It turns out to be hard to pin such things down.

Some innocent dreams were shattered when well-informed
posters hinted that some pros will paint anything their
sponsors like on equipment, including tires, and even have
hot-decal machines to make things easier.

(When I read this, I keeled over in a dead faint--I knew
that many pros used drugs, that rumors of pre-arranged wins
and side bets were rife, and that some of riders even
engaged in sex before marriage, but it had never occurred to
me that they might race under false colors.)

I suspect that there are about the same percentage of pro
racers in Europe riding on tubulars as there are U.S. riders
riding on clinchers.

(There are always exceptions. My enthusiastic but somewhat
inexperienced neighbors astonished me a few years ago. A
dealer had sold them bikes with tubulars for a bike vacation
in Italy, so they asked me if they had the right kind of
spares--while they were packing the bikes.)

Carl Fogel

<[email hidden]> wrote: (clip) (There's no truth to the rumor that
the pros believe that sniffing the glue enhances performance and cannot be
detected.)(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It's not being detected because no one is testing the mechanics. ;-)

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The pros ride what they are paid to ride.
For an excellent thesis on the pros ;-) & cons of tubies see Josbt's
article in rbt's faq, & also @ Sheldon's web site.
In a nutshell, tubulars are superior, but the price in terms of hours
of work & mess causes very few amateur riders to use them.
Also there is the serious safety question if not glued on properly.
Particularly after changing a tire during a ride.
John

Thanks to everyone who replied here. Sheldon Brown's site was very
informative. Talk about shattering perceptions! Here's the jist of what I
read:

Tubies offered a weight advantage back when clinchers all used wire beads.
With Kevlar bead/folding clinchers, there's no real weight advantage ...
especially if you have to carry a third tubie along as a spare in case of a
flat (as opposed to merely a spare tube).

The higher psi capabilities of tubies are only an advantage if you're on a
smooth, indoor, wooden track. On real roads, excessive psi results in loss
of power transfer and potential loss of control.

Ideal psi for a 700x23 for minimum rolling resistance and maximum
traction/power transfer would be 115 psi ... regardless of whether the tire
is a clincher or a tubular.

Because of the cross-section profile of modern clincher tires, for a given
psi, they will have a smaller contact patch than a tubie and, hence, they
will actually have LESS ROLLING RESISTANCE! Did you get that? Clinchers
actually have LESS ROLLING RESISTANCE!

The only real advantage a tubie would seem to have is that they are less
likely to pinch flat. Oh, and if you do get a flat, they're safer 'cuz you
can ride on them a bit.

This is just a synopsis of what Sheldon has to say on the subject. It's
quite contrary to the folklore that floats around about tubulars.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

Bob C? said:

Quoted message said:

The pros ride what they are paid to ride. For an excellent thesis
on the pros ;-) & cons of tubies see Josbt's article in RBT's FAQ,
& also @ Sheldon's web site. In a nutshell, tubulars are superior,
but the price in terms of hours of work & mess causes very few
amateur riders to use them. Also there is the serious safety
question if not glued on properly. Particularly after changing a
tire during a ride.

Quoted message said:

Thanks to everyone who replied here. Sheldon Brown's site was very
informative. Talk about shattering perceptions! Here's the gist of
what I read:

Quoted message said:

Tubies offered a weight advantage back when clinchers all used wire
beads. With Kevlar bead/folding clinchers, there's no real weight
advantage... especially if you have to carry a third tubie along
as a spare in case of a flat (as opposed to merely a spare tube).

I can see it coming already. "But but but it's rotating mass that
counts." but it isn't unless your acceleration is in the realm of
powerful motorcycles.

Quoted message said:

The higher psi capabilities of tubies are only an advantage if
you're on a smooth, indoor, wooden track. On real roads, excessive
psi results in loss of power transfer and potential loss of control.

If you want to ride at 200psi you might try solid tires and see what
control and traction in curves does.

Quoted message said:

Ideal psi for a 700x23 for minimum rolling resistance and maximum
traction/power transfer would be 115 psi... regardless of whether
the tire is a clincher or a tubular.

That's a reasonable pressure although on 25mm tires I find that
80-100psi is just fine for hard cornering.

Quoted message said:

Because of the cross-section profile of modern clincher tires, for a
given psi, they will have a smaller contact patch than a tubie and,
hence, they will actually have LESS ROLLING RESISTANCE! Did you get
that? Clinchers actually have LESS ROLLING RESISTANCE!

I don't think you can state that categorically, it depending on tread,
casing and inner tube thickness. See item at:

http://tinyurl.com/6fkj5

where the tubulars, had they not used road glue, would have been below
the best clinchers. The tubulars being silk, high TPI tires with
condom like latex tubes.

Quoted message said:

The only real advantage a tubie would seem to have is that they are
less likely to pinch flat. Oh, and if you do get a flat, they're
safer 'cuz you can ride on them a bit.

As I have mentioned. I have ridden many miles on a flat clincher,
once on a rim that had a huge "M" from hitting the sharp edge of a
drainage ditch. That they come off may have something to do with
folding tires. I ride wire bead tires so I don't know about those.

Quoted message said:

This is just a synopsis of what Sheldon has to say on the subject.
It's quite contrary to the folklore that floats around about
tubulars.

Bicycling is full of folklore and the faithful guard it endlessly.
See the stuff that keeps flying around about spoked wheels.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Because of the cross-section profile of modern clincher tires, for a given
psi, they will have a smaller contact patch than a tubie and, hence, they
will actually have LESS ROLLING RESISTANCE! Did you get that? Clinchers
actually have LESS ROLLING RESISTANCE!

The only real advantage a tubie would seem to have is that they are less
likely to pinch flat. Oh, and if you do get a flat, they're safer 'cuz

you

Quoted message said:

can ride on them a bit.

This is just a synopsis of what Sheldon has to say on the subject. It's
quite contrary to the folklore that floats around about tubulars.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

You originally raised this question in relation to a time trial bike you
intend to build. If you end up using a disk on the rear, you most likely
will be forced to use tubulars. Does anybody out there know of many options
when it comes to clincher disk wheels?

Partly Animal said:

Quoted message said:

Because of the cross-section profile of modern clincher tires, for a given
psi, they will have a smaller contact patch than a tubie and, hence, they
will actually have LESS ROLLING RESISTANCE! Did you get that? Clinchers
actually have LESS ROLLING RESISTANCE!

The only real advantage a tubie would seem to have is that they are less
likely to pinch flat. Oh, and if you do get a flat, they're safer 'cuz

you

Quoted message said:

can ride on them a bit.

This is just a synopsis of what Sheldon has to say on the subject. It's
quite contrary to the folklore that floats around about tubulars.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

You originally raised this question in relation to a time trial bike you
intend to build. If you end up using a disk on the rear, you most likely
will be forced to use tubulars. Does anybody out there know of many options
when it comes to clincher disk wheels?

Dear Partly,

You might call this shop and ask if the CH Aero wheel cover
has any tubular/clincher limits:

http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?page=8&description=Wheel+Cover&vendorCode=CHAERO&major=1&minor=24

Carl Fogel

Partly Animal said:

You originally raised this question in relation to a time trial bike you
intend to build. If you end up using a disk on the rear, you most likely
will be forced to use tubulars. Does anybody out there know of many options
when it comes to clincher disk wheels?

There are plenty of clincher discs available with Shimano or Campag
freehubs but, as far as I know, no clincher discs for fixed wheel.

Here's the first example I found:

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/v2_product_detail.asp?ProdID=5300006060

They are *very* expensive. A 40UKP rubber cover (UniDisc was one brand)
for a standard rear wheel had almost the same aerodynamic advantages,
but wasn't UCI-approved so they died out.

Zog The Undeniable said:

There are plenty of clincher discs available with Shimano or Campag
freehubs but, as far as I know, no clincher discs for fixed wheel.

Here's the first example I found:

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/v2_product_detail.asp?ProdID=5300006060

Corimas are much cheaper than Mavic, and also available as a clincher
version for both Shimano and Campagnolo cassettes:

http://www.corima.com/corima/gb/produits/roues/paraculaire.html

In short, the availability of clincher disc wheels is not a problem.

-as

"As I have mentioned. I have ridden many miles on a flat clincher,
once on a rim that had a huge "M" from hitting the sharp edge of a
drainage ditch. That they come off may have something to do with
folding tires. I ride wire bead tires so I don't know about those"

Clinchers can be ridden flat, but at what speed ? With tubies, a
Professional can continue on at 20 mph, while the Pro on clinchers has
to slow to 10 mph to prevent the tire from coming off the rim. After
waiting for a minute for a wheel change, the Pro on clinchers has much
more distance to make up. For non-Pro's, the only place it makes sense
to use tubies, is in a crit, where the "free lap" rule applies.
Officials might frown on the amount of time it takes you to complete a
lap at 8-10 mph max. on your flat clinchers.

Antti Salonen said:

Corimas are much cheaper than Mavic, and also available as a clincher
version for both Shimano and Campagnolo cassettes:

http://www.corima.com/corima/gb/produits/roues/paraculaire.html

In short, the availability of clincher disc wheels is not a problem.

If only they (or anyone) made a clincher track version :-( I rarely
ride on the track but I do TT on a fixed wheel, and I don't want the
hassle of tubulars.

"Bill K." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"As I have mentioned. I have ridden many miles on a flat clincher,
once on a rim that had a huge "M" from hitting the sharp edge of a
drainage ditch. That they come off may have something to do with
folding tires. I ride wire bead tires so I don't know about those"

Clinchers can be ridden flat, but at what speed ? With tubies, a
Professional can continue on at 20 mph, while the Pro on clinchers has
to slow to 10 mph to prevent the tire from coming off the rim. After
waiting for a minute for a wheel change, the Pro on clinchers has much
more distance to make up. For non-Pro's, the only place it makes sense
to use tubies, is in a crit, where the "free lap" rule applies.
Officials might frown on the amount of time it takes you to complete a
lap at 8-10 mph max. on your flat clinchers.

I guess this explains why the pros continue to lean towards tubies. I've
often wondered when watching coverage of pro races how they can hold their
hand up indicating a flat, and keep riding ... all the while looking back to
see where the neutral service vehicle is. They stay in contact with the
riders they're with much better than I would have thought possible. When
I've flatted on clinchers, it was usually all I could do to stay upright
while getting to a stop.
--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

"Malum consilium quod mutari non potest." - Syrus

Zog The Undeniable said:

Antti Salonen said:

Corimas are much cheaper than Mavic, and also available as a clincher
version for both Shimano and Campagnolo cassettes:

http://www.corima.com/corima/gb/produits/roues/paraculaire.html

In short, the availability of clincher disc wheels is not a problem.

If only they (or anyone) made a clincher track version :-( I rarely
ride on the track but I do TT on a fixed wheel, and I don't want the
hassle of tubulars.

Clincher disc wheels that use genuine Shimano freehub bodies (with the
splined attachment to the hubshell) can be converted to fixed-gear use
with an adaptor kit from Surly called the "Fixxer". Hed road disc
wheels are candidates for such conversions (and can probably also be
purchased new in that configuration), there may be others.

-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Comprehensive catalogue of track equipment: online since 1996.
http://www.businesscycles.com

On 30 Dec 2004 06:50:06 -0800, "Bill K."
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Clinchers can be ridden flat, but at what speed ? With tubies, a
Professional can continue on at 20 mph, while the Pro on clinchers has
to slow to 10 mph to prevent the tire from coming off the rim. After
waiting for a minute for a wheel change, the Pro on clinchers has much
more distance to make up. For non-Pro's, the only place it makes sense
to use tubies, is in a crit, where the "free lap" rule applies.
Officials might frown on the amount of time it takes you to complete a
lap at 8-10 mph max. on your flat clinchers.

Dear Bill,

I wish that I'd put that on my list earlier in this thread,
but . . .

a) It didn't occur to me--d'oh!

b) I wouldn't have been able to put it as well as you do.

It beats all the other reasons.

Thanks,

Carl Fogel

Bill Kill said:

Quoted message said:

As I have mentioned. I have ridden many miles on a flat clincher,
once on a rim that had a huge "M" from hitting the sharp edge of a
drainage ditch. That they come off may have something to do with
folding tires. I ride wire bead tires so I don't know about those.

Quoted message said:

Clinchers can be ridden flat, but at what speed ? With tubies, a
Professional can continue on at 20 mph, while the Pro on clinchers
has to slow to 10 mph to prevent the tire from coming off the rim.
After waiting for a minute for a wheel change, the Pro on clinchers
has much more distance to make up. For non-Pro's, the only place it
makes sense to use tubies, is in a crit, where the "free lap" rule
applies. Officials might frown on the amount of time it takes you
to complete a lap at 8-10 mph max. on your flat clinchers.

I don't see how speed comes into this, either the tire stays on the
rim or it doesn't. Riding with a huge ding in the rim isn't something
conducive to 20mph anyway. The point is that the fable of not being
able to ride a flat clincher is a fable.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]