Tire Bead Failure Epidemic

Ron Hardin said:

My last four (over a year) flat tires have been bead failures.

Before that, 100% were through-the-tread holes, either worn or
punctureed.

Is there a new tire construction method that results in really
crummy beads?

What do you mean "bead failure"? Do the beads of the tire *break*? Or
does the tire blow out along the rim?

I've never seen a bead break in 25 years of working on bikes. Usually
it's something close- rim cuts, brake shoe cuts, etc. Also, Jobst has
shown that a tire with a cut bead will hold fine when mounted properly
on a hook-bead rim.

Jeff

JeffWills said:

Ron Hardin said:

My last four (over a year) flat tires have been bead failures.

Before that, 100% were through-the-tread holes, either worn or
punctureed.

Is there a new tire construction method that results in really
crummy beads?

What do you mean "bead failure"? Do the beads of the tire *break*? Or
does the tire blow out along the rim?

I've never seen a bead break in 25 years of working on bikes. Usually
it's something close- rim cuts, brake shoe cuts, etc. Also, Jobst has
shown that a tire with a cut bead will hold fine when mounted properly
on a hook-bead rim.

Jeff

The casing wears through at the bead; this roughens the inside of the
tire, resulting in a leak in the tube when it in turn wears through
from abrading against the casing.

So the immediate cause is the threads in the casing breaking loose from
the casing and causing wear on the tube. If it didn't do that first,
it would be a separation of the tire casing at the bead and the tube
coming through, pretty soon.

I've put, gee, probably 300k miles on bikes now, and only recently
have I seen this failure. For years and years and years, it was
something in the tread, either wearing through (and my not watching
carefully enough) or a puncture.

Now it's at the bead.
--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

Ron Hardin said:

My last four (over a year) flat tires have been bead failures.

Before that, 100% were through-the-tread holes, either worn or
punctureed.

Is there a new tire construction method that results in really
crummy beads?

Another odd fact : all bought from Nashbar (though not the same
brand).

None not bought from Nashbar, before that, have had bead failures.

Perhaps a Nashbar supplier?

Same tire brand / model? Same wheel? Same batch?

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 18:34:51 GMT, Ron Hardin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

JeffWills said:

Ron Hardin said:

My last four (over a year) flat tires have been bead failures.

Before that, 100% were through-the-tread holes, either worn or
punctureed.

Is there a new tire construction method that results in really
crummy beads?

What do you mean "bead failure"? Do the beads of the tire *break*? Or
does the tire blow out along the rim?

I've never seen a bead break in 25 years of working on bikes. Usually
it's something close- rim cuts, brake shoe cuts, etc. Also, Jobst has
shown that a tire with a cut bead will hold fine when mounted properly
on a hook-bead rim.

Jeff

The casing wears through at the bead; this roughens the inside of the
tire, resulting in a leak in the tube when it in turn wears through
from abrading against the casing.

So the immediate cause is the threads in the casing breaking loose from
the casing and causing wear on the tube. If it didn't do that first,
it would be a separation of the tire casing at the bead and the tube
coming through, pretty soon.

I've put, gee, probably 300k miles on bikes now, and only recently
have I seen this failure. For years and years and years, it was
something in the tread, either wearing through (and my not watching
carefully enough) or a puncture.

Now it's at the bead.

Are these all on the same wheel?

JT

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Ron Hardin said:

My last four (over a year) flat tires have been bead failures.

Before that, 100% were through-the-tread holes, either worn or
punctureed.

Is there a new tire construction method that results in really
crummy beads?

Another odd fact : all bought from Nashbar (though not the same
brand).

None not bought from Nashbar, before that, have had bead failures.

Perhaps a Nashbar supplier?

To answer some of the questions, a pic
http://home.att.net/~rhhardin6/tire001.jpg (55 kb)

a picture of the INSIDE of the tire. As it happens, this time a
Kenda 1.95x26

There's lots of tread left, so it's way premature.

The flat comes from the broken-loose threads abrading the tube, but it would
soon be tube-poking-through-sidewall if it continued, I imagine.
--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

Ron Hardin said:

The casing wears through at the bead; this roughens the inside of the
tire, resulting in a leak in the tube when it in turn wears through
from abrading against the casing.

So the immediate cause is the threads in the casing breaking loose from
the casing and causing wear on the tube. If it didn't do that first,
it would be a separation of the tire casing at the bead and the tube
coming through, pretty soon.

I've put, gee, probably 300k miles on bikes now, and only recently
have I seen this failure. For years and years and years, it was
something in the tread, either wearing through (and my not watching
carefully enough) or a puncture.

Now it's at the bead.

Make sure the brake pads aren't peeking over the top of the rim and
abrading the tire. I had many years of experience as well when I made
this mistake - such a silly mistake that I didn't bother to check until
several tires were shot.

Mark

Ron Hardin said:

My last four (over a year) flat tires have been bead failures.
Before that, 100% were through-the-tread holes, either worn or
punctureed.
Is there a new tire construction method that results in really
crummy beads?
Another odd fact : all bought from Nashbar (though not the same
brand).
None not bought from Nashbar, before that, have had bead failures.
Perhaps a Nashbar supplier?

Maybe it's the way they fold the tires when they ship
them to you? I'm assuming these are wire bead tires.
There is a way to coil up wire bead tires without
damaging them (it's in the FAQ) although I sometimes
find it hard to use on MTB tires.

Mark said:

Ron Hardin said:

The casing wears through at the bead; this roughens the inside of the
tire, resulting in a leak in the tube when it in turn wears through
from abrading against the casing.

Quoted message said:

Make sure the brake pads aren't peeking over the top of the rim and
abrading the tire. I had many years of experience as well when I made
this mistake - such a silly mistake that I didn't bother to check until
several tires were shot.

Ditto. I think it only took me one tyre, but I learned the hard way too.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Everyone confesses that exertion which brings out all the powers of body
and mind is the best thing for us; but most people do all they can to
get rid of it, and as a general rule nobody does much more than
circumstances drive them to do. -Harriet Beecher Stowe, abolitionist and
novelist (1811-1896)

Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:05:52 GMT, Ron Hardin:

Quoted message said:

To answer some of the questions, a pic
http://home.att.net/~rhhardin6/tire001.jpg (55 kb)

a picture of the INSIDE of the tire. As it happens, this time a
Kenda 1.95x26

There's lots of tread left, so it's way premature.

Tire too wide for the rim and pressure too low? A tire of this width (I
presume it is in the 50-60mm wide range) should be used with a rim of at
least 24mm inner width.

Andreas

Andreas Oehler said:

Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:05:52 GMT, Ron Hardin:

Quoted message said:

To answer some of the questions, a pic
http://home.att.net/~rhhardin6/tire001.jpg (55 kb)

a picture of the INSIDE of the tire. As it happens, this time a
Kenda 1.95x26

There's lots of tread left, so it's way premature.

Tire too wide for the rim and pressure too low? A tire of this width (I
presume it is in the 50-60mm wide range) should be used with a rim of at
least 24mm inner width.

Andreas

No, it's a thinner tire than the rim is designed for. 2.25x26 worked fine
back in the day when I bought tires at department stores. Same pressure
I always run at, which is to say not noticeably soft.

It's just some separation of threads from casing that didn't use to happen.

Can't be damaged rim because I've had them on both sides.

Can't be brake because it's if anything adjusted too far towards the hub,
not to mention that I don't use that brake.

Not a snake bite because there's no such obstacles on my regular route,
which is about all it ever sees. It's a commuting bike.

--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:40:05 GMT, Ron Hardin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Andreas Oehler said:

Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:05:52 GMT, Ron Hardin:

Quoted message said:

To answer some of the questions, a pic
http://home.att.net/~rhhardin6/tire001.jpg (55 kb)

a picture of the INSIDE of the tire. As it happens, this time a
Kenda 1.95x26

There's lots of tread left, so it's way premature.

Tire too wide for the rim and pressure too low? A tire of this width (I
presume it is in the 50-60mm wide range) should be used with a rim of at
least 24mm inner width.

Andreas

No, it's a thinner tire than the rim is designed for. 2.25x26 worked fine
back in the day when I bought tires at department stores. Same pressure
I always run at, which is to say not noticeably soft.

It's just some separation of threads from casing that didn't use to happen.

Can't be damaged rim because I've had them on both sides.

Can't be brake because it's if anything adjusted too far towards the hub,
not to mention that I don't use that brake.

Not a snake bite because there's no such obstacles on my regular route,
which is about all it ever sees. It's a commuting bike.

Dear Ron,

Am I right in thinking that you've put four different models of tire
from Nashbar on the same rear rim in a year, and all four different
models have soon suffered the same damage?

If so, the rim or the sizing is a more likely culprit than any odd
shipping damage or our different models being defective in the same
way.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:40:05 GMT, Ron Hardin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Andreas Oehler said:

Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:05:52 GMT, Ron Hardin:

>
>To answer some of the questions, a pic
>http://home.att.net/~rhhardin6/tire001.jpg (55 kb)
>
>a picture of the INSIDE of the tire. As it happens, this time a
>Kenda 1.95x26
>
>There's lots of tread left, so it's way premature.

Tire too wide for the rim and pressure too low? A tire of this width (I
presume it is in the 50-60mm wide range) should be used with a rim of at
least 24mm inner width.

Andreas

No, it's a thinner tire than the rim is designed for. 2.25x26 worked fine
back in the day when I bought tires at department stores. Same pressure
I always run at, which is to say not noticeably soft.

It's just some separation of threads from casing that didn't use to happen.

Can't be damaged rim because I've had them on both sides.

Can't be brake because it's if anything adjusted too far towards the hub,
not to mention that I don't use that brake.

Not a snake bite because there's no such obstacles on my regular route,
which is about all it ever sees. It's a commuting bike.

Dear Ron,

Am I right in thinking that you've put four different models of tire
from Nashbar on the same rear rim in a year, and all four different
models have soon suffered the same damage?

If so, the rim or the sizing is a more likely culprit than any odd
shipping damage or our different models being defective in the same
way.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

No, this is the first on this rim; the others were on another bike.

My own suspicion is that it's a chemical change in tire manufacturing,
or maybe the effort to reduce rolling resistance of smoothish MTB tires
produces weakened beads, weakened well beyond the tread wear lifetime
potential.

--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 23:37:53 GMT, Ron Hardin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:40:05 GMT, Ron Hardin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Andreas Oehler wrote:
>
> Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:05:52 GMT, Ron Hardin:
>
> >
> >To answer some of the questions, a pic
> >http://home.att.net/~rhhardin6/tire001.jpg (55 kb)
> >
> >a picture of the INSIDE of the tire. As it happens, this time a
> >Kenda 1.95x26
> >
> >There's lots of tread left, so it's way premature.
>
> Tire too wide for the rim and pressure too low? A tire of this width (I
> presume it is in the 50-60mm wide range) should be used with a rim of at
> least 24mm inner width.
>
> Andreas

No, it's a thinner tire than the rim is designed for. 2.25x26 worked fine
back in the day when I bought tires at department stores. Same pressure
I always run at, which is to say not noticeably soft.

It's just some separation of threads from casing that didn't use to happen.

Can't be damaged rim because I've had them on both sides.

Can't be brake because it's if anything adjusted too far towards the hub,
not to mention that I don't use that brake.

Not a snake bite because there's no such obstacles on my regular route,
which is about all it ever sees. It's a commuting bike.

Dear Ron,

Am I right in thinking that you've put four different models of tire
from Nashbar on the same rear rim in a year, and all four different
models have soon suffered the same damage?

If so, the rim or the sizing is a more likely culprit than any odd
shipping damage or our different models being defective in the same
way.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

No, this is the first on this rim; the others were on another bike.

My own suspicion is that it's a chemical change in tire manufacturing,
or maybe the effort to reduce rolling resistance of smoothish MTB tires
produces weakened beads, weakened well beyond the tread wear lifetime
potential.

Dear Ron,

So the previous rim ate three tires, and the new rim just ate the one
in the picture, but four different tire models, right?

Can you measure the rim width and tire pressure?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 23:37:53 GMT, Ron Hardin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:40:05 GMT, Ron Hardin <[email hidden]>
wrote:

>Andreas Oehler wrote:
>>
>> Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:05:52 GMT, Ron Hardin:
>>
>> >
>> >To answer some of the questions, a pic
>> >http://home.att.net/~rhhardin6/tire001.jpg (55 kb)
>> >
>> >a picture of the INSIDE of the tire. As it happens, this time a
>> >Kenda 1.95x26
>> >
>> >There's lots of tread left, so it's way premature.
>>
>> Tire too wide for the rim and pressure too low? A tire of this width (I
>> presume it is in the 50-60mm wide range) should be used with a rim of at
>> least 24mm inner width.
>>
>> Andreas
>
>
>No, it's a thinner tire than the rim is designed for. 2.25x26 worked fine
>back in the day when I bought tires at department stores. Same pressure
>I always run at, which is to say not noticeably soft.
>
>It's just some separation of threads from casing that didn't use to happen.
>
>Can't be damaged rim because I've had them on both sides.
>
>Can't be brake because it's if anything adjusted too far towards the hub,
>not to mention that I don't use that brake.
>
>Not a snake bite because there's no such obstacles on my regular route,
>which is about all it ever sees. It's a commuting bike.

Dear Ron,

Am I right in thinking that you've put four different models of tire
from Nashbar on the same rear rim in a year, and all four different
models have soon suffered the same damage?

If so, the rim or the sizing is a more likely culprit than any odd
shipping damage or our different models being defective in the same
way.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

No, this is the first on this rim; the others were on another bike.

My own suspicion is that it's a chemical change in tire manufacturing,
or maybe the effort to reduce rolling resistance of smoothish MTB tires
produces weakened beads, weakened well beyond the tread wear lifetime
potential.

Dear Ron,

So the previous rim ate three tires, and the new rim just ate the one
in the picture, but four different tire models, right?

Can you measure the rim width and tire pressure?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

The rim width is 1 1/8" (outside, as the brake sees it; there's a
tire mounted on it so I can't give the inside dimension)

The pressure is whatever it is after you pump it up hard, and will
decline until I notice it's low and pump it up again.

Same as always. That is, I haven't changed habits.

--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

Ron Hardin said:

The rim width is 1 1/8" (outside, as the brake sees it; there's a
tire mounted on it so I can't give the inside dimension)

The pressure is whatever it is after you pump it up hard, and will
decline until I notice it's low and pump it up again.

Same as always. That is, I haven't changed habits.

What I'm trolling for, more than guesses what I'm doing wrong,
not that I mind opinions, is somebody remarking that that's happening
to him too.

--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:05:52 GMT, Ron Hardin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Ron Hardin said:

My last four (over a year) flat tires have been bead failures.

Before that, 100% were through-the-tread holes, either worn or
punctureed.

Is there a new tire construction method that results in really
crummy beads?

Another odd fact : all bought from Nashbar (though not the same
brand).

None not bought from Nashbar, before that, have had bead failures.

Perhaps a Nashbar supplier?

To answer some of the questions, a pic
http://home.att.net/~rhhardin6/tire001.jpg (55 kb)

a picture of the INSIDE of the tire. As it happens, this time a
Kenda 1.95x26

There's lots of tread left, so it's way premature.

The flat comes from the broken-loose threads abrading the tube, but it would
soon be tube-poking-through-sidewall if it continued, I imagine.

Is there any possibility that there's been some brake pad contact with
the tire sidewall at times? I assume that you've checked this, but it
may still be an issue; I was chagrined to discover that the tires on
my daughter's newly-assembled bike would apparently change shape when
wet, allowing the sidewall to rub on the pads of the V-brakes, despite
having ample clearance when dry. Those were house-brand Perfomance
25x1.5 slicks, BTW. Adjusting the pad contact point away from the
outer margin of the rim solved the problem.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Ron Hardin said:

My last four (over a year) flat tires have been bead failures.

Quoted message said:

Before that, 100% were through-the-tread holes, either worn or
punctured.

Quoted message said:

Is there a new tire construction method that results in really
crummy beads?

Quoted message said:

Another odd fact : all bought from Nashbar (though not the same
brand).

Quoted message said:

None not bought from Nashbar, before that, have had bead failures.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps a Nashbar supplier?

Your description and lack of a good picture of the failure leaves me
wondering what it is. I don't even know whether it is a leak or a
rupture of the casing with a bang. On the other hand, if you could
accurately define it in words, you would probably also recognize what
causes it. This has been the case with other on-the-net diagnoses
that were off the marks for lack of evidence.

See if you can show a close-up photo of the fault.

Quoted message said:

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. We have a few contributors here who
clearly fit the description with little doubt about their personality.

Hey! And please don't all raise your hands and identify yourselves.
I'm not looking for volunteers.

Jobst Brandt

Ron Hardin said:

My last four (over a year) flat tires have been bead failures.

Quoted message said:

Before that, 100% were through-the-tread holes, either worn or
punctureed.

Quoted message said:

Is there a new tire construction method that results in really
crummy beads?

Quoted message said:

Another odd fact : all bought from Nashbar (though not the same
brand).

Quoted message said:

None not bought from Nashbar, before that, have had bead failures.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps a Nashbar supplier?

Quoted message said:

To answer some of the questions, a pic

http://home.att.net/~rhhardin6/tire001.jpg

Quoted message said:

a picture of the INSIDE of the tire. As it happens, this time a
Kenda 1.95x26

Quoted message said:

There's lots of tread left, so it's way premature.

Quoted message said:

The flat comes from the broken-loose threads abrading the tube, but
it would soon be tube-poking-through-sidewall if it continued, I
imagine.

Well now we have a picture of the inside but how does the outside of
the casing at that point look? I don't see any reason why the binder
between cords should fail as these apparently did. If the the outside
were abraded by the brake pad, it could look like that, but you didn't
say that occurred.

Jobst Brandt

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:41:28 GMT, Ron Hardin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Ron Hardin said:

The rim width is 1 1/8" (outside, as the brake sees it; there's a
tire mounted on it so I can't give the inside dimension)

The pressure is whatever it is after you pump it up hard, and will
decline until I notice it's low and pump it up again.

Same as always. That is, I haven't changed habits.

What I'm trolling for, more than guesses what I'm doing wrong,
not that I mind opinions, is somebody remarking that that's happening
to him too.

Dear Ron,

Unfortunately, you can't control what rises to the surface, jaws
snapping, when you spread chum on the water.

Suggestions hinting at--

Er, operator error?

No, let us say a non-manufacturer root cause--

Some posts may hint at a non-manufactuer root cause for your tire
damage because your picture shows a small, well-defined patch of
damage on the inside of one of several different models of tire:

http://home.att.net/~rhhardin6/tire001.jpg

If it's a chemical manufacturing problem, as you speculate, then we
would expect widespread blemishes inside the tire.

In short, it looks like a local mechanical abrasion, not like a
blotchy batch of bad rubber--your picture seems to show road rash, not
leprosy.

Doctors sometimes reassure badly worried patients that what the victim
thinks is a venereal sore is actually just an honorable abrasion
caused by enthusiasm, not a hideous lesion caused by consorting with
evil partners, and then deliver a kindly lecture on "honeymoon
syndrome."

An oddly damaged rim, a poor match between tire and rim, low pressure
on a too-narrow rim, and the ingenious suggestion that Nashbar might
be damaging tires by coiling them for shipping in a new fashion are
all possible local problems, as well as the numerous questions about
brake pads.

No one else has yet mentioned Nashbar tires developing measles, so the
odds are that something mechanical damaged your four different tires.

I'm still willing to learn that you bought four different tires, all
with the same manufacturing defect, but I'm betting on an explanation
more specific to your two bikes.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel