Time Trial Gurus...

shawndoggy said:

I've got a month to go before our district time trial (40K).

For reference, last year I did 57:39 @ 280W. I used the powertap for pacing, basically trying to stay dead-on the 280W number, and the file looks remarkably flat for an outdoor ride. Not quite trainer-ride flat, but pretty darn close, considering.

Overall my training is where I'd like it to be for this time of year. I've not yet done a full length FT test, but my 2 x 20s are at about 285w on the trainer, and I generally find the trainer to be a little harder than outdoor work.

My goal this year is to average 295W.

I do a twilight race series on tuesday nights, and between now and the TT, I've got a crit, 14M TT, a hilly RR, and a 21M TT (the 21 being five days before the district TT). Other than those races, my training schedule is not set in stone, and I'm certainly willing to sacrifice results in the other races for a good TT result (i.e., I know that I could use a bit more L5/L6 work right now, but I'm planning on ignoring that in favor of threshold...?).

So what should I do in the next five weeks to prep?

Look for areas in your ability that are not yet maximized relative to their potential. If you're not seeing improvements in your power during your 2x20's it may be an indication that you need to use other methods to improve your power.

One way could be 4-5' intervals around your VO2max.

You might also do some shorter intervals around 290-310 watts, like 4 x 6-10'.

My coach works with two riders who have each won elite nat's TT's in the last 3 years and 2x20's are not so important for them. They choose shorter intervals at slightly higher power as their goal events draw near. They also do many stage races for the variety of intensities they encounter.

I'd be concerned about doing a relatively hard TT just 5 days before your peak event. Unless you are really, really sharp for that 21mi TT you may not recover completely before your peak event, and if you have to rest a lot between those two events you won't be able to do much of the training one might use for peaking, like plenty of short, relatively high intensity efforts.

WarrenG said:

I'd be concerned about doing a relatively hard TT just 5 days before your peak event. Unless you are really, really sharp for that 21mi TT you may not recover completely before your peak event, and if you have to rest a lot between those two events you won't be able to do much of the training one might use for peaking, like plenty of short, relatively high intensity efforts.

This is of concern to me too.... and doing that TT isn't necessarily an out-and-out requirement.

As for the peaking thoughts, well, that's got me curious too -- I've used (with moderate, but noticeable) success the ride-puke-go home type peaking intervals in prep for last year's masters' districts (crit/rr), but I wonder whether that same type of effort is what I should be doing to peak for a TT? The reason I ask is that those 45-90 second bursts seem very valuable in the context of a crit or rr, but no so much for doing TT work (where the whole battle is riding the absolute bleeding edge of threshold for 55:00 without cracking).

shawndoggy said:

As for the peaking thoughts, well, that's got me curious too -- I've used (with moderate, but noticeable) success the ride-puke-go home type peaking intervals in prep for last year's masters' districts (crit/rr), but I wonder whether that same type of effort is what I should be doing to peak for a TT? The reason I ask is that those 45-90 second bursts seem very valuable in the context of a crit or rr, but no so much for doing TT work (where the whole battle is riding the absolute bleeding edge of threshold for 55:00 without cracking).

My favorite method for peaking for most events (tt's included) is blocks of l5 work. As in back-to-back or back-to-back-to-back days of l5 work ending 7-10 days before a big race. One block I did was 2 on/1 off/2 on/1 off/long ride/taper before my best ever race result. The first day of each two was just l5 work, while the second day included a little extra duration or some l4 work. I've noticed BIG jumps in fitness after this type of approach several time. Something to think about, at least...

shawndoggy said:

This is of concern to me too.... and doing that TT isn't necessarily an out-and-out requirement.

As for the peaking thoughts, well, that's got me curious too -- I've used (with moderate, but noticeable) success the ride-puke-go home type peaking intervals in prep for last year's masters' districts (crit/rr), but I wonder whether that same type of effort is what I should be doing to peak for a TT? The reason I ask is that those 45-90 second bursts seem very valuable in the context of a crit or rr, but no so much for doing TT work (where the whole battle is riding the absolute bleeding edge of threshold for 55:00 without cracking).

I would not suggest efforts that short nor that high of intensity for your goal. I'd lean towards 3-8' duration intervals.

What is the course and what are the normal winds at that time of year?

RapDaddyo said:

What is the course and what are the normal winds at that time of year?

Sattley California. South to north to south out-n-back course. I'd suspect that there's 250ish feet of elevation change over the course, but I've never seen an elevation profile. I believe that the prevailing winds are from the west. The question becomes how strong, and whether they are quartering at all.

Two years ago, it was blowing hard, slightly from the southwest. So I went out hard, blew in the return headwind.

Last year, blowing much more lightly and slightly from the northwest, meaning a slight tailwind on the return leg. Much better time for me.

Obviously, that's not meteorlogical-quality data.

shawndoggy said:

Sattley California. South to north to south out-n-back course. I'd suspect that there's 250ish feet of elevation change over the course, but I've never seen an elevation profile.

Do you know the actual route, including start/finish and turnaround?

RapDaddyo said:

Do you know the actual route, including start/finish and turnaround?

START/FINISH: Westside Road (A17) .5 miles north of highway 89.

TURNAROUND: well, that's going to be 20k from the start, eh? Looking at the map and using my foggy memory, I'd bet it's right around where Segundo Road intersects what is then called Beckworth Calpine Road (i.e. the continuation of Westside Road).

shawndoggy said:

START/FINISH: Westside Road (A17) .5 miles north of highway 89.
TURNAROUND: well, that's going to be 20k from the start, eh? Looking at the map and using my foggy memory, I'd bet it's right around where Segundo Road intersects what is then called Beckworth Calpine Road (i.e. the continuation of Westside Road).

Here's the course topo profile. It looks worse than it is, due to the xy scales. It is virtually flat, total of ~45' descent on the outbound leg and ~45' ascent on the return leg. So, wind will be more important to pacing.

RapDaddyo said:

Here's the course topo profile. It looks worse than it is, due to the xy scales. It is virtually flat, total of ~45' descent on the outbound leg and ~45' ascent on the return leg. So, wind will be more important to pacing.

Awesome, thanks RDO. Makes that TT that you guys do out by Apex look like a halfpipe, eh?

shawndoggy said:

Awesome, thanks RDO. Makes that TT that you guys do out by Apex look like a halfpipe, eh?

Yeah, 45', that's before changing gears off the ramp.

BTW, here's where you can get avg winds by month for most large cities ncdc.noaa.govavgwind.htmlOpen ↗. Looks like Reno might be the nearest reporting station (7.7mph avg in June - very low by comparison with lots of places). You'll definitely want to add power upwind and decrease power downwind. I'll try to work up a table for you to use on day of the event. It's probably at least +10W on the net upwind leg. The net downwind leg will bring your AP below your FT, but it will be the fastest strategy.

shawndoggy said:

regarding TT course in Sattley California.

You could ask any number of people here in NorCal who have done that course during the many years it's been used for Districts. Or you could post your questions about the course in the forum at www.ncncaracing.com.

WarrenG said:

You could ask any number of people here in NorCal who have done that course during the many years it's been used for Districts. Or you could post your questions about the course in the forum at www.ncncaracing.com.

Warren, as stated, I've raced the course several times and really feel comfortable with it. The only real variable out in the Sierra Valley is the wind, and it's a bit difficult to predict, IME, what it will do. It's usually calm in the morning, and it usually picks up as the day goes on, and it's usually somewhere out of the west. But how strong and whether it's SW, W, or NW.... well those are just day of factors.

Really my Q wasn't about how to prepare for the particular course, but rather how to get the FT power up to the absolute bleeding edge in preparation.

shawndoggy said:

I've got a month to go before our district time trial (40K).

For reference, last year I did 57:39 @ 280W. I used the powertap for pacing, basically trying to stay dead-on the 280W number, and the file looks remarkably flat for an outdoor ride. Not quite trainer-ride flat, but pretty darn close, considering.

Overall my training is where I'd like it to be for this time of year. I've not yet done a full length FT test, but my 2 x 20s are at about 285w on the trainer, and I generally find the trainer to be a little harder than outdoor work.

My goal this year is to average 295W.

I do a twilight race series on tuesday nights, and between now and the TT, I've got a crit, 14M TT, a hilly RR, and a 21M TT (the 21 being five days before the district TT). Other than those races, my training schedule is not set in stone, and I'm certainly willing to sacrifice results in the other races for a good TT result (i.e., I know that I could use a bit more L5/L6 work right now, but I'm planning on ignoring that in favor of threshold...?).

So what should I do in the next five weeks to prep?

I'd say that the race schedule looks really solid, and I'd concur w/Warren--that some 4'-5' pVo2 intervals would probably be the best protocol, since (I'm guessing) that the power on your 2x20' has probably levelled off a little??

FWIW, my highest FTP numbers have come after a pretty steady diet of longish intervals (5-25 minutes), followed by a month of racing and short (3-5 minute) intervals.

Lastly, that 21 miler?? I think I'd do it, but sacrifice the result and shoot for something like 92-95% of your goal power, then maybe even a little over your goal power (105%) for the last 5 minutes or so. Based on how you feel, I bet it will give you a really good idea of the power you'll be able to maintain for the 40K.

Depending on day of wind direction and velocity, I'm making a quick estimate that the optimal pacing strategy is going to be 35MP (e.g., FT+8W) on the upwind leg and FT-10W on the downwind leg. If you're right about your FT~295W, the issue is what you can sustain for the upwind leg. You might want to test that in the next few weeks. It will matter whether it's 290, 295, 300, 305 or whatever. I'm estimating you will have to hold the upwind power no longer than ~35mins.

RapDaddyo said:

Depending on day of wind direction and velocity, I'm making a quick estimate that the optimal pacing strategy is going to be 35MP (e.g., FT+8W) on the upwind leg and FT-10W on the downwind leg. If you're right about your FT~295W, the issue is what you can sustain for the upwind leg. You might want to test that in the next few weeks. It will matter whether it's 290, 295, 300, 305 or whatever. I'm estimating you will have to hold the upwind power no longer than ~35mins.

Thanks RDO -- what I can do physiologically and what I can do mentally are two different things. Hopefully the fully motivated brain decides to show up along with a well prepared body!

This also sort of gets to why FT is a somewhat fluid concept for me -- it requires me to bring what I believe to be possible into reality. We'll see!

shawndoggy said:

Thanks RDO -- what I can do physiologically and what I can do mentally are two different things. Hopefully the fully motivated brain decides to show up along with a well prepared body!

This also sort of gets to why FT is a somewhat fluid concept for me -- it requires me to bring what I believe to be possible into reality. We'll see!

The more intriguing preparation question to me is the relative merits of working on your anaerobic work capacity. The importance of your ~60MP is obvious and is clearly most heavily influenced by the traditional L4/L5 intervals. But, I am intrigued by the contribution of AWC, even when you don't go anaerobic much or often (especially on the downwind segment). Obviously, you're going to want to punch it up a notch over the slight upgrades to maintain bike speed, but those little pushes are unlikely to be long enough to tap your AWC. I'd be interested in Andy's take on this question, but my sense is that there is merit to allocating some training time to L6s.

shawndoggy said:

Thanks RDO -- what I can do physiologically and what I can do mentally are two different things. Hopefully the fully motivated brain decides to show up along with a well prepared body!

This also sort of gets to why FT is a somewhat fluid concept for me -- it requires me to bring what I believe to be possible into reality. We'll see!

The other part of this has to do with equipment. It is virtually certain that you are going to have a pretty severe crosswind for much of the ride. I think understanding the drag coefficients of different wheels in a crosswind will be the next big breakthrough in aerodynamics. There is very little comparative data between wheels under different crosswind conditions and I think the actual differences between wheels in crosswinds is huge.

RapDaddyo said:

The other part of this has to do with equipment. It is virtually certain that you are going to have a pretty severe crosswind for much of the ride. I think understanding the drag coefficients of different wheels in a crosswind will be the next big breakthrough in aerodynamics. There is very little comparative data between wheels under different crosswind conditions and I think the actual differences between wheels in crosswinds is huge.

Zipp's own data, and the Tour article the have translated on their site both have data for varrying yaw angles. HED also publishes yaw data for all their wheels (which if you plug the H3 into Zipp's or Tour's data can give you comparitive info on HED's other wheels).

Scott