Time For New Wheels

Casey Keller said:

It's probably time for new wheels. My Mavic Open Pro rims are getting old
and make noise when I brake.

That is a brake pad problem, most likely. Look for bits of metal in the
pads.

Quoted message said:

The crossed pattern on the spokes wears
grooves in the spokes so the wheels tend to creak and groan loudly.

But, the spokes just do not move against each other at the cross. Lots of
folks have wheels that have many tens of thousands of miles on the
spokes, with no such grooves. Go look for the grooves. If the wheels are
"creaking and groaning" loudly, then the spokes would have to be very,
very loose, which is a poorly built wheel, not a "worn out" one from
regular use.

My wheels are about the same age as yours (given your 1999 hub). Now,
maybe they don't have as many miles, but there is essentially 0 groove.
yes, the spokes tend to be a bit "stuck together" at the juncture, but
that is mostly because crud collects there and is not cleaned away.

For a decent wheel, yes, the rims wear. The hubs need maintenance. But
the spokes should last many thousands of miles.

Quoted message said:

So what should I get? Mavic rims again?

Well, the Open Pros do have a tendency to make noise -- it's a
design problem.

Quoted message said:

Should I get the ceramic ones?

I wouldn't. Ceramic rims are a response to poor braking with anodized
rims. Better solution is to not get anodized rims.

Quoted message said:

Is there a way to build the wheels without crossing the spokes?

It's called radial. Only works for front wheels.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored
_`\(,_ | by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." --Ralph Waldo
(_)/ (_) | Emerson

Casey Keller said:

So what should I get? Mavic rims again?

Mavic makes some good rims, though there is one category I'd avoid...

Quoted message said:

Should I get the ceramic ones?

Many report problems with these, of varying natures. In my opinion,
they're best avoided.

Quoted message said:

Is
there a way to build the wheels without crossing the spokes?

Yes, but it's better not to. Radial lacing has its own set of
problems.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is
there a way to build the wheels without crossing the spokes?

Yes, but it's better not to. Radial lacing has its own set of
problems.

FI Campy doesn't warrant radial laced hubs.

"Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Casey Keller said:

So what should I get? Mavic rims again?

Mavic makes some good rims, though there is one category I'd avoid...

Quoted message said:

Should I get the ceramic ones?

Many report problems with these, of varying natures. In my opinion,
they're best avoided.

Quoted message said:

Is
there a way to build the wheels without crossing the spokes?

Yes, but it's better not to. Radial lacing has its own set of
problems.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Casey Keller said:

It's probably time for new wheels. My Mavic Open Pro rims are getting old
and make noise when I brake. The crossed pattern on the spokes wears
grooves in the spokes so the wheels tend to creak and groan loudly. (I'm
using Campy Chorus hubs from '99)

I know there are fancy, high buck wheelsets out there, but they would look
terrible with my classic, lugged steel frame. Besides, most of the
cognoscenti on this site disapprove of boutique wheels.

So what should I get? Mavic rims again? Should I get the ceramic ones? Is
there a way to build the wheels without crossing the spokes?

We notice this from time to time and I can't point to single
cause. I would rebuild with Velocity's offset clincher
'AeroHead O/C'. That rim gives a more balanced tension on
modern hubs.

(I don't know your weight, style, terrain or tire width. I'm
just assuming that if Mavic OP were appropriate and you
didn't complain of them directly that a similar width and
weight would be a good start.

Ceramic? Whatever for?

Use butted stainless spokes with brass nipples. Lube the
threads and under the nipple's head. Observe accepted
techniques found in The Book.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Casey Keller said:

It's probably time for new wheels. My Mavic Open Pro rims are
getting old and make noise when I brake. The crossed pattern on the
spokes wears grooves in the spokes so the wheels tend to creak and
groan loudly. (I'm using Campy Chorus hubs from '99)

I use those hubs on my race bike. Well, used to be my race bike when
I raced. Now it's a bike and I should call it that. Anyway, those
wheels were built up in 1999 with Open Pro rims, the rear of which
failed by cracking around the spoke holes. It made some weird noises
in the process. In 2000 I rebuilt with MA2 rims and have close to
25,000 miles on them. No grooves worn into the spokes at the
crossings (if yours have grooves there is something *seriously* wrong
with how your wheels are built).

Quoted message said:

I know there are fancy, high buck wheelsets out there, but they
would look terrible with my classic, lugged steel frame. Besides,
most of the cognoscenti on this site disapprove of boutique wheels.

So what should I get? Mavic rims again? Should I get the ceramic
ones? Is there a way to build the wheels without crossing the
spokes?

Yes, it's called radial spoking. I'll remain agnostic about which
rims you should use. If it was up to me, I'd just replace the rim,
using the same spokes.

Casey Keller said:

So what should I get? Mavic rims again? Should I get the ceramic ones?

Velocity Aerohead OC rims are lighter and at least as strong.

Casey Keller said:

It's probably time for new wheels. My Mavic Open Pro rims are getting old
and make noise when I brake.

Might cure with new brake pads or cleaning the rims.

Quoted message said:

The crossed pattern on the spokes wears
grooves in the spokes so the wheels tend to creak and groan loudly. (I'm
using Campy Chorus hubs from '99)

?? Most conventional wheels have crossed spokes. If there's
clicking noises, lubing the spoke nipples and/or crossings might help.
Open Pros of a certain vintage get a click or creak once per
revolution, there's innummerable discussions in the archives
of this group. It's due to the pin at the joint and only cosmetic,
albeit annoying.

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casey-<< It's probably time for new wheels >><BR><BR>
<< So what should I get? Mavic rims again? Should I get the ceramic ones? Is
there a way to build the wheels without crossing the spokes?

Your help is always appreciated. >><BR><BR>

Find a good wheelbuilder(like us!!) and have them design a wheelset
specifically for you and your needs. Use Mavic, Torelli, Velocity rims, DT
spokes. If they are noisey where they cross, then the tension is probably too
low.

http://www.torelli.com
http://www.velocityusa.com

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Quoted message said:

Is
there a way to build the wheels without crossing the spokes?

You can also build the wheels crossed, but without _weaving_ the last crossing
of the spokes as is normally done, so that none touch another. That is how
probably millions of old British bikes were, and they seemed to work fine.
Such wheels allegedly are slightly more limber than 'normal,' all else being
equal.

But, any noise coming from spokes where they are crossed and woven, or any
movement or wear there, is caused by too little tension and/or not initially
stress-relieving the spokes.

Mark Pace
Pace Bicycle Haven
Independence, MO

Quoted message said:

I know there are fancy, high buck wheelsets out there, but they would look
terrible with my classic, lugged steel frame. Besides, most of the
cognoscenti on this site disapprove of boutique wheels.

try velocity rims. very nice and a good price. I have a 32 radial spoke on front
using a arrowhead rim and on back 36 in a deepv all solid black. looks great on
the lugged frame and the cost was less then most.
http://www.velocityusa.com/

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

Quoted message said:

I know there are fancy, high buck wheelsets out there, but they would look
terrible with my classic, lugged steel frame. Besides, most of the
cognoscenti on this site disapprove of boutique wheels.

try velocity rims. very nice and a good price. I have a 32 radial spoke on front
using a arrowhead rim and on back 36 in a deepv all solid black. looks great on
the lugged frame and the cost was less then most.
http://www.velocityusa.com/

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

"Steve Knight" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I know there are fancy, high buck wheelsets out there, but

they would look

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

terrible with my classic, lugged steel frame. Besides, most

of the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cognoscenti on this site disapprove of boutique wheels.

try velocity rims. very nice and a good price. I have a 32

radial spoke on front

Quoted message said:

using a arrowhead rim and on back 36 in a deepv all solid

black. looks great on

Quoted message said:

the lugged frame and the cost was less then most.
http://www.velocityusa.com/

Steve, did you mail order or buy locally in PDX? -- Jay Beattie.

Quoted message said:

Steve, did you mail order or buy locally in PDX? -- Jay Beattie.

local. I got the front wheel at veloce bikes he built it. then the back he had
someone build it for me. but for 125.0 0for the front and 150 for the back it is
still la pretty good deal.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

MAPaceBike wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is
there a way to build the wheels without crossing the spokes?

You can also build the wheels crossed, but without _weaving_ the last

crossing

Quoted message said:

of the spokes as is normally done, so that none touch another. That is how
probably millions of old British bikes were, and they seemed to work fine.
Such wheels allegedly are slightly more limber than 'normal,' all else

being

Quoted message said:

equal.

But, any noise coming from spokes where they are crossed and woven, or any
movement or wear there, is caused by too little tension and/or not

initially

Quoted message said:

stress-relieving the spokes.

Who alleged this? If anything, the laced pattern where the spokes bear upon
each other produces a more flexible wheel, this in conjunction with high
spoke tension is why buckling occurs. By shaping the spokes during fitting,
at the crossing point, this excess of flexibility can be removed, resulting
in a solid and secure wheel. Movement at the crossing is then minimised and
it is this which prevents wear. What do you mean by stress relieving?

Trevor

trevor-<< What do you mean by stress relieving? >><BR><BR>

Boy, that speaks volumes....

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

trevor-<< What do you mean by stress relieving? >><BR><BR>

Boy, that speaks volumes....

Perhaps I should have used What do #you# mean by stress relieving?

Trevor

On 02 Sep 2004 20:33:07 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo ) said:

trevor-<< What do you mean by stress relieving? >><BR><BR>

Boy, that speaks volumes....

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Dear Peter,

Well, it may be shorthand for "do you mean a spoke-squeezing
method that is deeply believed in around here, but which
enjoys less than universal belief outside
rec.bicycles.tech?"

I keep having trouble explaining the difference in evidence
to high-school physics students between tying and soldering
(in which I gather you are a somehat lonely believer) and
spoke-squeezing (which commands a devoted anecdotal
following here).

Posting a description of the spoke-squeezing theory on a few
metallurical forums did not provoke much support, to put it
as nicely as possible. Still. it could be such an odd
situation that normal engineers wouldn't be likely to
consider it.

As always, if anyone can point me to spoke studies (as
opposed to my-wheels-last-forever-and-I-make-plenty-of-'em),
I'd be delighted. Right now, I'm getting ready to email
Professor Gavin again to see if he perhaps forgot to mail me
his spoke testing notes. I'm reluctant, since he may be busy
at the beginning of the academic year and is doing it purely
as a kind-hearted favor to a stranger.

Carl Fogel

here are some pics
http://www.knight-toolworks.com/pictures/tires1.jpg
http://www.knight-toolworks.com/pictures/tires2.jpg
http://www.knight-toolworks.com/pictures/tires3.jpg

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

[email hidden] wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

As always, if anyone can point me to spoke studies (as
opposed to my-wheels-last-forever-and-I-make-plenty-of-'em),
I'd be delighted. Right now, I'm getting ready to email
Professor Gavin again to see if he perhaps forgot to mail me
his spoke testing notes. I'm reluctant, since he may be busy
at the beginning of the academic year and is doing it purely
as a kind-hearted favor to a stranger.

I believe tied and soldered wheels may have a minimal advantage with spoke
fatigue and rim stability over my method of spoke shaping only if the t&s
method includes the same spoke shaping at the crossing.

Gavin describes his set-up for measuring spoke strain, and it is clear that
due to the limitations of equipment he only plotted a 'normalised' variation
of spoke strain in his real life plot. The point of strain of an unloaded
wheel is not shown, the equipment could only transmit an alternating
current.. The other plots were better and show the origin of the unloaded
spoke.

Trevor