Tic/Tinkle Noise From Loose Ball Hubs??

Ed Ness said:

I have a low mileage set of Dura Ace 7700 hubs laced to Open Pro
rims. My rear wheel rolls nice and smooth but emits a non rhythmic
"tic/tinkle" noise as the wheel spins. This noise occurs regardless
of load and it even occurs if I spin the axle while holding the rim
stationary!

Quoted message said:

The noise seems to be coming from the loose ball bearings as they
bang into one another (Dura Ace hubs do not have a cage to space the
balls apart from one another). Repacking the hub with grease
reduces the noise but it always comes back after a handful of miles.

Quoted message said:

This particular wheel has made this noise since new. I know the
noise is in the hub so please don't say this is the "Open Pro
Click". I adjusted the cones so when the wheel is clamped in the
frame there is no side to side play at the rim.

I doubt the noise results from loose (uncaged) balls. There must be
something in the freewheel escapement making the noise. To test for
this, take the wheel out of the bicycle and spin it while holding the
axle in the hands, then do the same with the wheel spinning
horizontally. If it make the noise in the horizontal position (axle
vertical) then it is definitely not the bearing balls falling on each
other.

If you can grab a pair of 1/4" 9-position bearing cages from your LBS,
try that with only three balls equally spaced to see if the sound is
still reproducible. By the way, bearing cages cost nothing in
performance while being a great convenience for maintenance. That way
the balls come out as a unit and go in that way even without grease.

I can't hear what you hear from here but with the wheel out of the
bicycle you should be able to come closer to the source.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

I have a low mileage set of Dura Ace 7700 hubs laced to Open Pro rims.
My rear wheel rolls nice and smooth but emits a non rythimic
"tic/tinkle" noise as the wheel spins. This noise occurs regardless of
load and it even occurs if I spin the axle while holding the rim
stationary!

The noise seems to be comming from the loose ball bearings as they bang
into one another (Dura Ace hubs do not have a cage to space the balls
apart from one another). Repacking the hub with grease reduces the
noise but it always comes back after a handful of miles.

This particular wheel has made this noise since new. I know the noise
is in the hub so please don't say this is the "Open Pro Click". I
adjusted the cones so when the wheel is clamped in the frame there is
no side to side play at the rim.

This noise is starting to bug me and seems contrary to an otherwise
nice set of wheels. Has anyone else ever noticed a noise like this and
is there any way to get rid of it?

Ed

I hear that noise in my ancient Shimano 600 hubs on my commuter bike.

I think you've got the cause pinpointed. (Certainly, in my case it has
nothing to do with freewheel pawls, as Jobst suggested. It happens
when pedaling or coasting.)

I don't know of any real cure, and I don't believe a cure is necessary.

But I often whistle as I ride. If you pick the tune carefully, that
clicking can be a subtle percussion accompaniment. ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

Thanks for the tip. When holding the wheel horizontal the noise goes
away almost completely! As soon as the wheel is rotated vertical the
tinkle noise comes back. Very strange. Makes me think the cones are
too loose but I can't feel any slop if I wiggle the rim with the wheel
clamped in the frame. I'm using Shimano brand grease, the green stuff,
which I think should be fine.

I'll see if I can chase down a bearing cage as suggested. I hope it
fits inside the hub! This would be a great solution if it works!

Thanks.

Ed

Quoted message said:

I have a low mileage set of Dura Ace 7700 hubs laced to Open Pro rims.
My rear wheel rolls nice and smooth but emits a non rythimic
"tic/tinkle" noise as the wheel spins. This noise occurs regardless of
load and it even occurs if I spin the axle while holding the rim
stationary!

The noise seems to be comming from the loose ball bearings as they bang
into one another (Dura Ace hubs do not have a cage to space the balls
apart from one another). Repacking the hub with grease reduces the
noise but it always comes back after a handful of miles.

This particular wheel has made this noise since new. I know the noise
is in the hub so please don't say this is the "Open Pro Click". I
adjusted the cones so when the wheel is clamped in the frame there is
no side to side play at the rim.

This noise is starting to bug me and seems contrary to an otherwise
nice set of wheels. Has anyone else ever noticed a noise like this and
is there any way to get rid of it?

Ed

it's not uncommon and is nothing to worry about. it's just the bearing
balls "falling over the top" of the axle cone. if you want to stop it,
tighten the bearing cones ever so slightly, /after/ you've read
sheldon's excellent article on how to adjust, or repack the bearings
with thicker grease.

Quoted message said:

Ed Ness said:

I have a low mileage set of Dura Ace 7700 hubs laced to Open Pro
rims. My rear wheel rolls nice and smooth but emits a non rhythmic
"tic/tinkle" noise as the wheel spins. This noise occurs regardless
of load and it even occurs if I spin the axle while holding the rim
stationary!

Quoted message said:

The noise seems to be coming from the loose ball bearings as they
bang into one another (Dura Ace hubs do not have a cage to space the
balls apart from one another). Repacking the hub with grease
reduces the noise but it always comes back after a handful of miles.

Quoted message said:

This particular wheel has made this noise since new. I know the
noise is in the hub so please don't say this is the "Open Pro
Click". I adjusted the cones so when the wheel is clamped in the
frame there is no side to side play at the rim.

I doubt the noise results from loose (uncaged) balls.

you "doubt" but you don't know? for a bearing expert jobst, you seem to
know remarkably little on this subject.

Quoted message said:

There must be
something in the freewheel escapement making the noise. To test for
this, take the wheel out of the bicycle and spin it while holding the
axle in the hands, then do the same with the wheel spinning
horizontally. If it make the noise in the horizontal position (axle
vertical) then it is definitely not the bearing balls falling on each
other.

If you can grab a pair of 1/4" 9-position bearing cages from your LBS,
try that with only three balls equally spaced to see if the sound is
still reproducible.

if they're loose bearing bals, all that shows is that the load has
become distributed among fewer points and therefore is greater on each.
if they're still in their cages, it shows that they're, er, still held
in place by their cages!!!

Quoted message said:

By the way, bearing cages cost nothing in
performance while being a great convenience for maintenance. That way
the balls come out as a unit and go in that way even without grease.

are you advocating the use of a bearing cage for cup & cone axles? if
so, it shows that you've never actually serviced a wheel bearing
contrary to all your "expert advice" on this subject because if you had,
you'd know that it would be impossible to get the bearing balls in or
out if they were held with a cage.

Quoted message said:

I can't hear what you hear from here but with the wheel out of the
bicycle you should be able to come closer to the source.

Jobst Brandt

another quite amazing post.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for the tip. When holding the wheel horizontal the noise goes
away almost completely! As soon as the wheel is rotated vertical the
tinkle noise comes back. Very strange. Makes me think the cones are
too loose

they're not loose, but they're not loaded. you only need the merest
fraction of play for a ball to be able to do this.

Quoted message said:

but I can't feel any slop if I wiggle the rim with the wheel
clamped in the frame. I'm using Shimano brand grease, the green stuff,
which I think should be fine.

it is, but if you want something thicker, use boat bearing grease.

Quoted message said:

I'll see if I can chase down a bearing cage as suggested. I hope it
fits inside the hub!

you're not the only one!

Quoted message said:

This would be a great solution if it works!

it would be quite amazing.

Quoted message said:

Thanks.

Ed

jim beam said:

[email hidden] wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'll see if I can chase down a bearing cage as suggested. I hope it
fits inside the hub!

you're not the only one!

Quoted message said:

This would be a great solution if it works!

it would be quite amazing.

Quoted message said:

Thanks.

Ed

Dear Ed and Jim,

Are these the bearing cages for hub and axles that Jobst has
in mind?

1. Hub Axle Ball Bearing Retainer, 7 x 1/4'' /Each
Item #AP-13
Price: $1.00

2. Hub Axle Ball Bearing Retainer 7 x 3/16'' /Each
Item #AP-6
Price: $1.00

3. Hub Axle Ball Bearing Retainer 12 x 3/16'' /Each
Item #AP-F74
Price: $1.00

http://www.loosescrews.com/index.cgi?c=Bearings&sc=Retainer&tc=Hub&id=779191322219

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

[email hidden] wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'll see if I can chase down a bearing cage as suggested. I hope it
fits inside the hub!

you're not the only one!

Quoted message said:

This would be a great solution if it works!

it would be quite amazing.

Quoted message said:

Thanks.

Ed

Dear Ed and Jim,

Are these the bearing cages for hub and axles that Jobst has
in mind?

1. Hub Axle Ball Bearing Retainer, 7 x 1/4'' /Each
Item #AP-13
Price: $1.00

2. Hub Axle Ball Bearing Retainer 7 x 3/16'' /Each
Item #AP-6
Price: $1.00

3. Hub Axle Ball Bearing Retainer 12 x 3/16'' /Each
Item #AP-F74
Price: $1.00

http://www.loosescrews.com/index.cgi?c=Bearings&sc=Retainer&tc=Hub&id=779191322219

Carl Fogel

how do you get a 20-something mm retainer in through a 18mm hole? you'd
have to remove the dust cover, something much easier said than done.

jim beam said:

how do you get a 20-something mm retainer in through a 18mm hole? you'd
have to remove the dust cover, something much easier said than done.

struggling to remove dust cover... welded and krazy glued in place...
the nano-scale bonding! The interstitials and the dislocation density!
The very electrons are intermingling... must use Superpowers... must
concentrate: focus all boorishness, rudeness, adolescent immaturity,
acting out, ego, into a single narrow beam to jimmy it out...
concentrate, focus! Use all Superpowers in unison, to form Jerk Beam!
May be able to lift it out... No! Unable to overcome the facts!

Curses. Foiled again. By a dustcap.p

Quoted message said:

I have a low mileage set of Dura Ace 7700 hubs laced to Open Pro rims.
My rear wheel rolls nice and smooth but emits a non rythimic
"tic/tinkle" noise as the wheel spins. This noise occurs regardless of
load and it even occurs if I spin the axle while holding the rim
stationary!

'Called bearing flop ad it is the balls smacking each other. A result
of almost no grease in the hubs when new. OVH hubs, add grease. Hubs
cannot get too much grease. Of the goop that oozes out, don't wipe off,
a great sealer for the hubs.

Quoted message said:

The noise seems to be comming from the loose ball bearings as they bang
into one another (Dura Ace hubs do not have a cage to space the balls
apart from one another). Repacking the hub with grease reduces the
noise but it always comes back after a handful of miles.

This particular wheel has made this noise since new. I know the noise
is in the hub so please don't say this is the "Open Pro Click". I
adjusted the cones so when the wheel is clamped in the frame there is
no side to side play at the rim.

This noise is starting to bug me and seems contrary to an otherwise
nice set of wheels. Has anyone else ever noticed a noise like this and
is there any way to get rid of it?

Ed

41 said:

jim beam said:

how do you get a 20-something mm retainer in through a 18mm hole? you'd
have to remove the dust cover, something much easier said than done.

struggling to remove dust cover... welded and krazy glued in place...
the nano-scale bonding! The interstitials and the dislocation density!
The very electrons are intermingling... must use Superpowers... must
concentrate: focus all boorishness, rudeness, adolescent immaturity,
acting out, ego, into a single narrow beam to jimmy it out...
concentrate, focus! Use all Superpowers in unison, to form Jerk Beam!
May be able to lift it out... No! Unable to overcome the facts!

Curses. Foiled again. By a dustcap.p

Thank you. That was so much more graceful, elegant and funny than the post I was
about to write.

Ron

RonSonic said:

41 said:

jim beam said:

how do you get a 20-something mm retainer in through a 18mm hole?
you'd have to remove the dust cover, something much easier said
than done.

struggling to remove dust cover... welded and krazy glued in place...
the nano-scale bonding! The interstitials and the dislocation
density! The very electrons are intermingling... must use
Superpowers... must concentrate: focus all boorishness, rudeness,
adolescent immaturity, acting out, ego, into a single narrow beam to
jimmy it out... concentrate, focus! Use all Superpowers in unison,
to form Jerk Beam! May be able to lift it out... No! Unable to
overcome the facts!

Curses. Foiled again. By a dustcap.p

Thank you. That was so much more graceful, elegant and funny than the
post I was about to write.

I just figured he was channeling Gene Daniels.

41 said:

jim beam said:

how do you get a 20-something mm retainer in through a 18mm hole? you'd
have to remove the dust cover, something much easier said than done.

struggling to remove dust cover... welded and krazy glued in place...
the nano-scale bonding! The interstitials and the dislocation density!
The very electrons are intermingling... must use Superpowers... must
concentrate: focus all boorishness, rudeness, adolescent immaturity,
acting out, ego, into a single narrow beam to jimmy it out...
concentrate, focus! Use all Superpowers in unison, to form Jerk Beam!
May be able to lift it out... No! Unable to overcome the facts!

Curses. Foiled again. By a dustcap.p

dust caps are thin & weak. they are not designed for removal. attempts
to do so damage or destroy them. as you'd know if you'd ever bothered
to try.

but let's imagine for a moment that you actually /did/ bother. what
next - it's all dented & messed up! where are you going to get spares
from? will there be room for the cage? are you going to abandon the
cage project and just force the damaged dust cap back in anyway and not
worry about sealing or appearance? will you call jobst for expert advice?

making stuff up and trying to force an argument out of it makes you look
like an idiot, idiot.

Ed Ness said:

Thanks for the tip. When holding the wheel horizontal the noise
goes away almost completely! As soon as the wheel is rotated
vertical the tinkle noise comes back. Very strange.

How regular is the sound? If it is a once-around of the wheel, it
could be debris inside the rim. As I said I can't hear it so I can
only guess. Bearing balls make a fairly solid tick-tick sound and at
fairly uniform intervals, especially if the bearing has a slight
clearance so that rising balls bear on each other and fall over the top
at a constant rate.

Quoted message said:

Makes me think the cones are too loose but I can't feel any slop if
I wiggle the rim with the wheel clamped in the frame. I'm using
Shimano brand grease, the green stuff, which I think should be fine.

The best way to test of bearing clearance is to have the wheel in hand
and rotate the axle between thumb and forefinger. It should turn freely
but without slop. The reason is that the QR when tightened, reduces
that clearance and gives the bearing some preload.

Quoted message said:

I'll see if I can chase down a bearing cage as suggested. I hope it
fits inside the hub! This would be a great solution if it works!

Scrap that idea. I was thinking of BB bearings that also use 1/4"
balls but have 11 of them and work well with a cage. Your cup and
cone will not accept a cage. Sorry about the bum steer.

Jobst Brandt

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:06:03 GMT,
[email hidden] wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'll see if I can chase down a bearing cage as suggested. I hope it
fits inside the hub! This would be a great solution if it works!

Scrap that idea. I was thinking of BB bearings that also use 1/4"
balls but have 11 of them and work well with a cage. Your cup and
cone will not accept a cage. Sorry about the bum steer.

Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

No fuss, no quibbling, no evasion, no rancour, no wild
inflation of a molehill into a mountain--thanks for the
lesson in how to handle a mistake gracefully.

Carl Fogel

jim beam said:

dust caps are thin & weak. they are not designed for removal. attempts
to do so damage or destroy them. as you'd know if you'd ever bothered
to try.

Right, right, all dust caps on all hubs are weak and not designed for
removal. I can't speak for Shimano Dura Ace FH-7700, but most hubs I've
ever had to work on had dust caps that were more than sturdy enough to be
removed with a little care[1], and I do so as a matter of course when
overhauling my hubs. I think every one of the hubs I own also uses caged
bearings, incidentally, but that may be a fluke. Now, aged and embrittled
plastic dustcaps on cotterless cranks -- especially steel ones, which rust
shut -- those are hard to get off intact.

So far, your emphatic shouting only serves to underscore what a pathetic
wrench you are even compared to me, and I'm not that good.

Jasper

[1] Sometimes, it takes destroying the bearing cage to get that out first,
admittedly. But those are standard.

Bill Sornson said:

RonSonic said:

41 said:

jim beam wrote:

> how do you get a 20-something mm retainer in through a 18mm hole?
> you'd have to remove the dust c over, something much easier said
> than done.

struggling to remove dust cover... welded and krazy glued in place...
the nano-scale bonding! The interstitials and the dislocation
density! The very electrons are intermingling... must use
Superpowers... must concentrate: focus all boorishness, rudeness,
adolescent immaturity, acting out, ego, into a single narrow beam to
jimmy it out... concentrate, focus! Use all Superpowers in unison,
to form Jerk Beam! May be ab le to lift it out... No! Unable to
overcome the facts!

Curses. Foiled again. By a dustcap.p

Thank you. That was so much more graceful, elegant and funny than the
post I was about to write.

I just figured he was channeling Gene Daniels.

He puts the license in poetic. In so doing he inspires us all. But more
specifically, I was channeling Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons.d

jim beam said:

41 said:

jim beam said:

how do you get a 20-something mm retainer in through a 18mm hole? you'd
have to remove the dust cover, something much easier said than done.

struggling to remove dust cover... welded and krazy glued in place...
the nano-scale bonding! The interstitials and the dislocation density!
The very electrons are intermingling... must use Superpowers... must
concentrate: focus all boorishness, rudeness, adolescent immaturi ty,
acting out, ego, into a single narrow beam to jimmy it out...
concentrate, focus! Use all Superpowers in unison, to form Jerk Beam!
May be able to lift it out... No! Unable to overcome the facts!

Curses. Foiled again. By a dustcap.p

dust caps are thin & weak. they are not designed for removal. attempts
to do so damage or destroy them. as you'd know if you'd ever bothered
to try.

I'm enjoying this too much and let's face it, you deserve everything
you are going to get over it.

So tell me, if they are not designed for removal, how is it that the
forged races of Campagnolo Record and original Shimano Dura Ace were
available as spare parts? They didn't come as a set with replacement
dust caps, by the way.

jim beam said:

dust caps are thin & weak. they are not designed for removal. attempts
to do so damage or destroy them. as you'd know if you'd ever bothered
to try.

:-) Perhaps they are not designed for removal by ham-fisted mechanics?

In my experience, removing and replacing them is easy with minimal
care. I've done it many times, and I've never ruined one.

Sounds like a competence issue to me!

Jim, every time you jump in and rail at Jobst, you come off looking
like a fool. Why persist?

- Frank Krygowski