Thoughts on the TdF ...

MMan said:

... that have nothing to do with doping:

1) I hate the last stage. They go X miles in which everyone is
tradition-bound not to attack the yellow jersey, the Y miles around
downtown Paris in which the yellow jersey could be lost by a stupid
crash in criterium-like conditions. Bring back the last-stage ITT.

2) Team time trial: The rules limiting losses to 30 seconds or
whatever it is are stupid. If you lose four minutes to the team ahead
of you, so be it. Cycling's a team sport, or so we are told, so why
can't major GC time be gained/lost on a TTT? Having no TTT in a
21-stage race, as they did this year, isn't cool either.

I guess you could say that ever since Lemond won the TDF, the French
have been rewriting the rulebook so that they might win again?

In article
<[email hidden]>,

CowPunk said:

MMan said:

... that have nothing to do with doping:

1) I hate the last stage. They go X miles in which everyone is
tradition-bound not to attack the yellow jersey, the Y miles around
downtown Paris in which the yellow jersey could be lost by a stupid
crash in criterium-like conditions. Bring back the last-stage ITT.

2) Team time trial: The rules limiting losses to 30 seconds or
whatever it is are stupid. If you lose four minutes to the team ahead
of you, so be it. Cycling's a team sport, or so we are told, so why
can't major GC time be gained/lost on a TTT? Having no TTT in a
21-stage race, as they did this year, isn't cool either.

I guess you could say that ever since Lemond won the TDF, the French
have been rewriting the rulebook so that they might win again?

It's been slow going with no light at the end of the tunnel.
Time to start disqualifying top finishers.

1 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak
2 Oscar Pereiro (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears
3 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile
4 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC
5 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto
6 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank
7 Cyril Dessel (Fra) AG2R-Prevoyance
8 Christophe Moreau (Fra) AG2R-Prevoyance

--
Michael Press

in message <[email hidden]>, MMan

(') said:

... that have nothing to do with doping:

1) I hate the last stage. They go X miles in which everyone is
tradition-bound not to attack the yellow jersey, the Y miles around
downtown Paris in which the yellow jersey could be lost by a stupid
crash in criterium-like conditions. Bring back the last-stage ITT.

Misunderstanding. In the years when someone else could have realistically
expected to win by attacking, the attack has happened. It's sometimes
happened even when it isn't realistic - look at Vinokourov last year.
There's no 'tradition' in the minds of the riders or directeurs sportif,
it just doesn't often happen that the leader's team is so weak that such
an attack could realistically be expected to get away.

Quoted message said:

2) Team time trial: The rules limiting losses to 30 seconds or
whatever it is are stupid. If you lose four minutes to the team ahead
of you, so be it. Cycling's a team sport, or so we are told, so why
can't major GC time be gained/lost on a TTT? Having no TTT in a
21-stage race, as they did this year, isn't cool either.

I agree. Team Time Trial is a very special sort of spectacle, and should
be part of the skills of an all-round cyclist.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

X-no-archive: No, I'm not *that* naive.

MMan said:

Y miles around
downtown Paris in which the yellow jersey could be lost by a stupid
crash in criterium-like conditions.

Has that ever happened?

And is that stage more dangerous than others? It seems to me that
riding in a 150-rider peloton on roads and villages many riders have
not seen before is more dangerous, and a closed and repeated circuit
is safer.

JT

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MMan said:

... that have nothing to do with doping:

1) I hate the last stage. They go X miles in which everyone is
tradition-bound not to attack the yellow jersey, the Y miles around
downtown Paris in which the yellow jersey could be lost by a stupid
crash in criterium-like conditions. Bring back the last-stage ITT.

It isn't a matter of tradition as much as the dynamics of the sport. No team is
going to allow anyone to take time out of their yellow jersey man. They'll ride
like whipped demons to prevent it. It would be the disgrace of an entire career
to lose the jersey like that. Everyone else knows it and respects it.

Sorta like chess, even on the grandmaster level all their opening gambits
protect against the "fools mate." You just don't give the other guy a chance to
even think about it.

Quoted message said:

2) Team time trial: The rules limiting losses to 30 seconds or
whatever it is are stupid. If you lose four minutes to the team ahead
of you, so be it. Cycling's a team sport, or so we are told, so why
can't major GC time be gained/lost on a TTT? Having no TTT in a
21-stage race, as they did this year, isn't cool either.

Agreed. Wah up wi dat.

Ron

"MMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

... that have nothing to do with doping:

1) I hate the last stage. They go X miles in which everyone is
tradition-bound not to attack the yellow jersey, the Y miles around
downtown Paris in which the yellow jersey could be lost by a stupid
crash in criterium-like conditions. Bring back the last-stage ITT.

It's not that tradition bound. In the last stage of 1914 Henri Pélissier
attacked Philippe Thijs several times and almost succeeded. In 1947 Jean
Robic had more luck and lifted Pierre Brambilla from the yellow jersey. In
1979 Zoetemelk attacked Hinault two or three times, before Hinault attacked
himself.

Quoted message said:

2) Team time trial: The rules limiting losses to 30 seconds or
whatever it is are stupid. If you lose four minutes to the team ahead
of you, so be it. Cycling's a team sport, or so we are told, so why
can't major GC time be gained/lost on a TTT? Having no TTT in a
21-stage race, as they did this year, isn't cool either.

Cycling is not a team sport, but an individual sport practised by teams. And
it's at his best when it finding a balance between these two aspects, like
in the 1940's and 1950's when the teams were not iunimportant, but the Tour
was in the first place a race between individuals. Right now, it's the
opposite. Alas, because the most exciting moments are still the battles
between individuals. Even in the mountains they hardly happen anymore,
except in the last two or three miles. The TTT is a fun to watch, but is
making the importance of the team aspect - already too big - even more
excessive.

Benjo

benjo maso said:

the most exciting moments are still the battles
between individuals. Even in the mountains they hardly happen anymore,
except in the last two or three miles. The TTT is a fun to watch, but is
making the importance of the team aspect - already too big - even more
excessive.

As decisive as time trials are, I'd say that they are not fun to watch,
either individually or as teams. There isn't the drama when the
competitors don't start next to each other on the course.

Here is a format for an interesting team time trial: On the day of
the start of the team time trial, seed the teams with their current
standings. Pair off the teams according to seed - first with last,
etc. Then start them together, giving both teams the same time as
when the first N of both teams cross the line. That would develop
some interesting tactics and be fun to watch.

-dB

in message <[email hidden]>, John Forrest

Tomlinson (') said:

MMan said:

Y miles around
downtown Paris in which the yellow jersey could be lost by a stupid
crash in criterium-like conditions.

Has that ever happened?

Not the yellow jersey, but the green one (quite recently, too, although I
forget who it was). Crashed badly in the last sprint and was quite
seriously injured, but was piled back onto his bike to wheel the last
few metres in order to keep the jersey.

Quoted message said:

And is that stage more dangerous than others?

Cobbles are a dangerous surface, particularly in the wet (I grew up in
Edinburgh. I /know/). And the high speed typical of the criterium round
the Champs Elisees is also dangerous. But not as dangerous as alpine
descents.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; It appears that /dev/null is a conforming XSL processor.

Simon Brooke said:

John Forrest Tomlinson (') said:

MMan said:

Y miles around
downtown Paris in which the yellow jersey could be lost by a stupid
crash in criterium-like conditions.

Has that ever happened?

Not the yellow jersey, but the green one (quite recently, too, although I
forget who it was). Crashed badly in the last sprint and was quite
seriously injured, but was piled back onto his bike to wheel the last
few metres in order to keep the jersey.

That was Abdoujaparov when he sprinted into the Coke can.
It was 1993. And it was in the final sprint, so nothing specific
to the conditions of the stage on the Champs caused it
(other than giant foam Coke cans being inside the barriers,
but they had those on all stages, I believe). Anyway, it isn't
the kind of crash that would take out the yellow jersey
(until gene manipulation produces a Merckx-Hinault hybrid
that can sprint for the win on the Champs while wearing
yellow).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And is that stage more dangerous than others?

Cobbles are a dangerous surface, particularly in the wet (I grew up in
Edinburgh. I /know/). And the high speed typical of the criterium round
the Champs Elisees is also dangerous. But not as dangerous as alpine
descents.

The stage on the Champs has two 180 degree turns for
which the riders essentially have to slow down. In some
sense these are less dangerous than a 90 degree turn
where they might try to take it full-speed. Also the finish
line is not terribly close to a turn, so the sprinters don't
have to be in the top 5 coming out of the last turn to have
a shout. Wet + 90 degree turn close to the finish = crashes,
like the stage in the Giro that took Cipollini out and
effectively closed out his career.

Quoted message said:

The stage on the Champs has two 180 degree turns

Two?

Quoted message said:

Simon Brooke said:

John Forrest Tomlinson (') said:

On 12 Aug 2006 19:08:20 -0700, "MMan" <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Y miles around
>downtown Paris in which the yellow jersey could be lost by a stupid
>crash in criterium-like conditions.

Has that ever happened?

Not the yellow jersey, but the green one (quite recently, too, although I
forget who it was). Crashed badly in the last sprint and was quite
seriously injured, but was piled back onto his bike to wheel the last
few metres in order to keep the jersey.

That was Abdoujaparov when he sprinted into the Coke can.
It was 1993. And it was in the final sprint, so nothing specific
to the conditions of the stage on the Champs caused it
(other than giant foam Coke cans being inside the barriers,
but they had those on all stages, I believe). Anyway, it isn't
the kind of crash that would take out the yellow jersey
(until gene manipulation produces a Merckx-Hinault hybrid
that can sprint for the win on the Champs while wearing
yellow).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And is that stage more dangerous than others?

Cobbles are a dangerous surface, particularly in the wet (I grew up in
Edinburgh. I /know/). And the high speed typical of the criterium round
the Champs Elisees is also dangerous. But not as dangerous as alpine
descents.

The stage on the Champs has two 180 degree turns for
which the riders essentially have to slow down. In some
sense these are less dangerous than a 90 degree turn
where they might try to take it full-speed. Also the finish
line is not terribly close to a turn, so the sprinters don't
have to be in the top 5 coming out of the last turn to have
a shout. Wet + 90 degree turn close to the finish = crashes,
like the stage in the Giro that took Cipollini out and
effectively closed out his career.

I only saw one 180' turn when I raced there.

Robert Chung said:

Quoted message said:

The stage on the Champs has two 180 degree turns

Two?

Sorry, one 180 and that underpass. I blame faulty
aerial photos supplied by those bungling appeasers
at the CIA.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The stage on the Champs has two 180 degree turns

Robert Chung said:

Quoted message said:

Two?

Quoted message said:

Sorry, one 180 and that underpass. I blame faulty
aerial photos supplied by those bungling appeasers
at the CIA.

And they're concealing WMD's in that underpass.

benjo maso said:

Thijs several times and almost succeeded. In 1947 Jean
Robic had more luck and lifted Pierre Brambilla from the yellow jersey. In
1979 Zoetemelk attacked Hinault two or three times, before Hinault attacked
himself.

And I often thought the ONLY person Hinault hadn't attacked was
himself, but now it is official. He's attacked everyone.

He was beside himself with anger. And panache.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...