thoughts on advance stop lines

stupot came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

However I was not particularly for or against, until this morning when I
pointed out three offending vehicles (2 taxis and a bus) stopped in the
middle of 3 separate advance stop areas, to two police officers in a car.
And they just said that it was the councils fault for not painting the
areas red yet.

It isn't actually illegal to stop, in a vehicle, at the ASL.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

stupot said:

However I was not particularly for or against, until this morning
when I pointed out three offending vehicles (2 taxis and a bus)
stopped in the middle of 3 separate advance stop areas, to two
police officers in a car. And they just said that it was the councils
fault for not painting the areas red yet.

Nonsense. An ASL is an ASL regardless of whether the bicycle reservoir
(as I believe it is called) is painted a pretty colour. Incidentally
motor vehicles are allowed to be stopped in our area if they get caught
there when the lights turn red. They're just not allowed to cross the
line into the bikie bit once the lights have changed, not that it seems
to deter them much down my way.

--
Dave...

Paul - censored said:

stupot came up with the following;:
It isn't actually illegal to stop, in a vehicle, at the ASL.

Interesting.

dkahn400 said:

Nonsense. An ASL is an ASL regardless of whether the bicycle reservoir
(as I believe it is called) is painted a pretty colour. Incidentally
motor vehicles are allowed to be stopped in our area if they get caught
there when the lights turn red. They're just not allowed to cross the
line into the bikie bit once the lights have changed, not that it seems
to deter them much down my way.

So is the 'caught in the ASL during red' the legality that Paul-[censored] points
out?

stupot said:

dkahn400 said:

Nonsense. An ASL is an ASL regardless of whether the bicycle
reservoir (as I believe it is called) is painted a pretty colour.
Incidentally motor vehicles are allowed to be stopped in our area
if they get caught there when the lights turn red. They're just not
allowed to cross the line into the bikie bit once the lights have
changed, not that it seems to deter them much down my way.

So is the 'caught in the ASL during red' the legality that Paul-[censored]
points out?

I can't read his mind, but I think so, yes. It's not illegal for a
motor vehicle to be in the bicycle zone, but it is illegal for them to
cross either white line once the lights have gone red. This means that
if the lights change to red while the driver is in the zone, he not
only can stop there but must do so.

--
Dave...

On Tue, 17 May 2005 13:50:54 +0100 someone who may be stupot
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

In the Edinburgh World Heritage area the council have decided to stop painting
the advance stop areas red as it detracts from the beauty of the area - while
still allowing residents to park enormous 4x4s all along the streets - hmmm

And still using all sorts of lines and signs of many colours. They
also still paint green bus lanes in the World Heritage Site and have
great big ugly black bins parked in the road covered in red and
white stripes.

The fact that the City of Edinburgh Council have only changed things
for cycling probably tells us a lot about the true feelings of
council officials towards cycling. On its own it would not be
significant, but taken with m any other things it is.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

David Hansen said:

On Tue, 17 May 2005 13:50:54 +0100 someone who may be stupot
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

In the Edinburgh World Heritage area the council have decided to
stop painting the advance stop areas red as it detracts from the
beauty of the area - while still allowing residents to park enormous
4x4s all along the streets - hmmm

And still using all sorts of lines and signs of many colours. They
also still paint green bus lanes in the World Heritage Site and have
great big ugly black bins parked in the road covered in red and
white stripes.

I take it it's the red and white stripes you object to. Or the lack of
traditional midden, in its non-traditional black plastic bag.

A

On Tue, 17 May 2005 17:47:22 +0100 someone who may be "Ambrose
Nankivell" <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They [snip] have
great big ugly black bins parked in the road covered in red and
white stripes.

I take it it's the red and white stripes you object to.

That is one of the things I object to. I also object to their size
and where many/most of them are sited (not necessarily in the World
Heritage Site, where they have had a change of mind).

Quoted message said:

Or the lack of
traditional midden, in its non-traditional black plastic bag.

I was not in favour of the black plastic bag approach when it was
introduced and have been shown to be right about this.

However, providing large general bins is not the right way of
improving on the black plastic bags. Only a Council could have been
stupid enough to do what they have done. What they should have done
is change from black plastic bags to reduce, reuse and recycle.
Instead they are trying to bolt this on afterwards.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

"Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

stupot came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

However I was not particularly for or against, until this morning when I
pointed out three offending vehicles (2 taxis and a bus) stopped in the
middle of 3 separate advance stop areas, to two police officers in a car.
And they just said that it was the councils fault for not painting the
areas red yet.

It isn't actually illegal to stop, in a vehicle, at the ASL.

Perhaps not, but it is illegal to cross the first stop line, i.e. the one
before the ASL, if the lights are red.

Quoted message said:

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

Rich came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

"Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

stupot came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

However I was not particularly for or against, until this morning when I
pointed out three offending vehicles (2 taxis and a bus) stopped in the
middle of 3 separate advance stop areas, to two police officers in a
car. And they just said that it was the councils fault for not painting
the areas red yet.

It isn't actually illegal to stop, in a vehicle, at the ASL.

Perhaps not, but it is illegal to cross the first stop line, i.e. the one
before the ASL, if the lights are red.

The OP said they had stopped, they weren't 'crossing' whilst on red ...

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

stupot came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

dkahn400 said:

Nonsense. An ASL is an ASL regardless of whether the bicycle reservoir
(as I believe it is called) is painted a pretty colour. Incidentally
motor vehicles are allowed to be stopped in our area if they get caught
there when the lights turn red. They're just not allowed to cross the
line into the bikie bit once the lights have changed, not that it seems
to deter them much down my way.

So is the 'caught in the ASL during red' the legality that Paul-[censored] points
out?

Yes.

One could conceivably drive over the stop lines quite legally whilst the
lights are green, but have to stop before clearing the ASL. Once the red
light is on then one shouldn't proceed over the solid white lines into the
area between the stop and ASL.

The colour of the road between the stop line and the ASL is immaterial.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

David Hansen said:

On Tue, 17 May 2005 13:50:54 +0100 someone who may be stupot

Quoted message said:

In the Edinburgh World Heritage area the council have decided to stop painting
the advance stop areas red as it detracts from the beauty of the area - while
still allowing residents to park enormous 4x4s all along the streets - hmmm

And still using all sorts of lines and signs of many colours. They
also still paint green bus lanes in the World Heritage Site and have
great big ugly black bins parked in the road covered in red and
white stripes.

Round here, bus lanes are red and ASLs green (or black). So the
obvious solution is to paint the ASLs green, since there is clearly no
objection to that colour.

Colin McKenzie

in message <[email hidden]>, David Hansen

(') said:

On Tue, 17 May 2005 17:47:22 +0100 someone who may be "Ambrose
Nankivell" <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Or the lack of
traditional midden, in its non-traditional black plastic bag.

I was not in favour of the black plastic bag approach when it was
introduced and have been shown to be right about this.

However, providing large general bins is not the right way of
improving on the black plastic bags. Only a Council could have been
stupid enough to do what they have done. What they should have done
is change from black plastic bags to reduce, reuse and recycle.
Instead they are trying to bolt this on afterwards.

The sad this is that when I was a child in Edinburgh the corporation (as
it was in those days) did have separate collections for waste paper
(which was recycled), rags (which were recycled) and general waste
(which was, I admit, dumped). So things have actually got worse, not
better.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Want to know what SCO stands for?
;; http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030605

On Wed, 18 May 2005 10:21:32 +0100 someone who may be Simon Brooke
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

The sad this is that when I was a child in Edinburgh the corporation (as
it was in those days) did have separate collections for waste paper
(which was recycled), rags (which were recycled) and general waste
(which was, I admit, dumped). So things have actually got worse, not
better.

In Fife they got rid of the waste paper collection some years ago.
Some did point out to them then that the landfill tax was going to
make it necessary to separate out as much waste as possible. Of
course the officials of Fife Council knew far better than any plebs.

A couple of years ago, with a big fanfare, Fife Council
(re)introduced waste paper collections. Some plebs laughed about
their "daft" ideas being adopted by the same people who had jeered
at them. They have still to introduce packaging recycling, which one
can see in Edinburgh, but things are going in the right direction.

The City of Edinburgh Council are just as stupid, a word I use
deliberately. If they had any brains they would, as a minimum, have
introduced multi-compartment communal bins.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

David Hansen said:

The City of Edinburgh Council are just as stupid, a word I use
deliberately. If they had any brains they would, as a minimum, have
introduced multi-compartment communal bins.

Good idea.
And when the large bins came in, people saw this as a chance to clear
all that long standing rubbish from their houses. Some of the bin lorries
broke while trying to lift bins filled with blocks of concrete and car
engine blocks. :-)
They are also useful for contractors wishing to dispose of commercial
rubbish that they would have had to pay to dispose of previously. :-)
But I still quite like them.

dkahn400 said:

stupot said:

dkahn400 said:

Nonsense. An ASL is an ASL regardless of whether the bicycle
reservoir (as I believe it is called) is painted a pretty colour.
Incidentally motor vehicles are allowed to be stopped in our area
if they get caught there when the lights turn red. They're just

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

allowed to cross the line into the bikie bit once the lights have
changed, not that it seems to deter them much down my way.

So is the 'caught in the ASL during red' the legality that Paul-[censored]
points out?

I can't read his mind, but I think so, yes. It's not illegal for a
motor vehicle to be in the bicycle zone, but it is illegal for them

to

Quoted message said:

cross either white line once the lights have gone red. This means

that

Quoted message said:

if the lights change to red while the driver is in the zone, he not
only can stop there but must do so.

Of course it is illegal for /any/ vehicle to cross either line when the
lights are red. Cyclists may enter via a cycle lane. If there is no
entry lane the legal status of the ASL is unclear (unless it has
special dispensation from the secretary of state). If the entry lane
has a dotted line (ie corresponds to an advisory cycle lane) then I
imagine that any vehicle that can fit into the lane could use it to
enter the resevoir when the lights are red but I am not sure aboutthis

best wishes
james

Tom Anderson said:

I have an idea! I think we should let cars cross the front line on red,
but not the back, and let bikes cross the back line on red, but not the
front. Then, bikes could get into the box in stopped traffic, but cars
couldn't, and the box would never be occupied by cars trapped in it by a
light change.

Can anyone see any holes in that?

Only that it involves a re-writing of the RTA. The advantage of the
current system is that it works with the original law.

Otherwise a good idea.

Jon

In message <[email hidden]>

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk said:

Tom Anderson said:

I have an idea! I think we should let cars cross the front line on red,
but not the back, and let bikes cross the back line on red, but not the
front. Then, bikes could get into the box in stopped traffic, but cars
couldn't, and the box would never be occupied by cars trapped in it by a
light change.

Can anyone see any holes in that?

Only that it involves a re-writing of the RTA. The advantage of the
current system is that it works with the original law.

Otherwise a good idea.

Also it makes bicycles stop when cars wouldn't! The back line should be
recognised as the RTA stop line and bicycles given special exemption to
cross it as far as the front line.

Regards Paul

--
CTC Right to Ride Representative for Richmond upon Thames