Thorpe & Hackett

Donal Fagan <Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Presented for your approval ...

donalfagan.comthorpe.htmlOpen ↗

With the leg-lifting torque of his prodigious kick, Thorpe maintains excellent horizontal balance.
Despite that great kick, when Thorpe arches his back to lift his head and torso, his legs do
occasionally sink a bit.

donalfagan.comhackett1.htmlOpen ↗

It seems clear that Hackett's intermittent, four-beat kick maintains his horizontal balance when
he raises his head and legs.

Great shots and commentary, Donal!

I do notice that some of the frames seem to contradict a theory being discussed here a few months
back regarding head lift causing the legs to raise because of the center of buoyancy moving toward
the legs when the head is lifted. Any comments?

Donal Fagan <Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Presented for your approval ...

donalfagan.comthorpe.htmlOpen ↗

With the leg-lifting torque of his prodigious kick, Thorpe maintains excellent horizontal balance.
Despite that great kick, when Thorpe arches his back to lift his head and torso, his legs do
occasionally sink a bit.

donalfagan.comhackett1.htmlOpen ↗

It seems clear that Hackett's intermittent, four-beat kick maintains his horizontal balance when
he raises his head and legs.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Thanks for the pictures, Donal.

I strongly encourage anyone with some interest to actually try swimming like Hackett. It can be done
fairly easily when wearing a small pair of fins. The the whole cycle initiates with a slight head
lift, right leg up beat, and right forearm descending to catch.The hardest part is doing the upbeat
with the right leg while you go to catch with the right arm. It also helps to be looking a bit
downward when you extend your right arm forward.

It feels a bit un-natural at first, but then gets quite nice. It has a wonderful rolling
rhythm to it.

Much more difficult to swim without fins. (Hackett is 6'8" with very supple feet, particularly his
left) So not sure whether his style is suited to the average rec. swimmer without fins.

With regard to your assertion that the kick is necessary to maintain horizontal alignment, you offer
basically no evidence to support that.

Yanai's article from way back when basically proved that body parts above the center of gravity such
as arms and heads being lifted move the center of bouyancy caudally. (towards the feet) This can be
proved empirically to those so inclined by doing the Weisenthal kick-board test. It becomes pretty
apparent then that head lift makes it much easier to hold the kick-board underwater, and hence is
clearly creating a downward force at the front of ones body. If you keep your body fairly rigid or
"plank like" with an arched back, this force will translate along the teeter-totter of your body to
actually lift your hips.

If you don't agree with that, Donal, you should try and poke holes in Yanai's research, which is
pretty conclusive.

Another recommendation I would have is for people to swim freestyle with an arched back and no kick
whatsoever. It's actually quite easy to maintain the legs at the surface with such a scheme. No
vigorous kick necessary to keep the legs at the surface.

Eric

Just have time to comment on Thorpe now. Hackett to follow.

This is actually a perfect illustration of all the points that I've been trying to make about back
arching and head lifting.

What is NOT important is how horizontal the body is, relative to itself. Of course, when a swimmer
is arching as much as Thorpe and lifting his head as much as Thorpe, the body will not be horizontal
relative to itself. But what we are talking about is keeping the body at the surface or above the
surface. We want to avoid having the butt and thighs go way under water, as do Terry Laughlin's butt
and thighs when he pulls with his head in the down, neutral position.

I got out my trusty metric calipers (which I more typically use for measuring the growth of tumors).
I measured the distance of the top of Thorpe's butt above your reference yellow line in all three
panels. In the top panel, it was
6.65 cm above the yellow line. In the middle, it was 6.25. In the bottom (maximal arch/maximal head
lift, occurring right at the beginning of Thorpe's breathing side catch) it was 7.2. Thus, his
butt is riding highest in the water at the time when his back is maximally arched and his head is
maximally lifted. Precisely as I have claimed. Precisely as predicted by Yanai's research. Why is
he so arched and why is his head so high? It's because he is counterbalancing the large, butt and
leg sinking torque associated with the prodigious moment arm of his catch.

What about the legs themselves? Well, the position of the legs is obviously changing during the
kicking cycle. Thorpe kicks very vigorously and very deeply. But, measuring the uppermost thigh in
both the top and bottom (maximally arched/maximally lifted) panels, the top thigh is 5.75 cm above
the yellow reference line in the top panel and an identical 5.75 cm above the yellow reference line
in the bottom (maximally lifted/maximally arched) panel.

And I am pleased that you agree that the fastest middle distance freestyle swimmer in history arches
his back prominently and lifts his head. I can't imagine that you would agree with TI coach "Big
Red" that Thorpe would be a faster swimmer if he didn't arch and didn't lift his head.

Hackett later. Gotta go make dinner.

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

(4precious) said:

With regard to your assertion that the kick is necessary to maintain horizontal alignment, you
offer basically no evidence to support that.

No, just a sequence of photographs that show the feet sinking when the head is raised.

Quoted message said:

Yanai's article from way back when basically proved ...

Did you read his methodology?
- He only included swimmers that kick hard.
- He didn't measure them directly. He taped them and used rough approximations of their body shapes
and estimates of their body mass and density to make calculations that varied enormously.
- In his summation, he didn't exclude the kick as a contributing source of the "leg-raising torque."

Assertion is not proof.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

This is actually a perfect illustration of all the points that I've been trying to make about back
arching and head lifting.

Actually this is perfect illustration of what I've been saying about reading too much into research
papers. Maglischo bought into all sorts of respected research about lift vs drag, then completely
reversed himself in his latest book.

You have to pay attention to the methodology. On the face of it, Larry measured the photographs.
With a caliper. How could anyone argue with precision measurements?

Like this:

1 - The top of the buttocks are obscured in all of the photos. I can see one cheek clearly in one of
them. I measured 246 pixels, 240 pixels, 257 pixels and 262 pixels, but I can't swear to it.

2 - Thorpe is rotated in two of the photos. Since he is wider at the hips than thick, that rotation
would affect the measurement. Is Larry measuring the top of the butt, or the side of the hips?

3 - The height of Thorpe from the bottom of the pool is not all that relevant. The claim was that
lifting the head and arching the back would lift the legs relative to the body. Archimedes already
tells us that rearranging buoyancy can't lift the body as a whole. Thorpe's stroking and kicking
creates intermittent lifting forces, so he may very well ride up and down in the water. If he does,
I see that as a waste of energy.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Larry,

You're beginning to sound a bit like an anti "Terry" stuck record - just repeating the same old
story again and again.

Why don't you stop trying to destroy him and just promote your own thoughts?

Wayne
--
DrClean www.DrClean.co.uk The Best Fabric Cleaning Resource on the Web "Larry Weisenthal"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am so happy that Fagan has put 6 years of endless controversy into brilliantly clear
perspective:

Fagan states:

"Assertion is not proof." (see context below).

I couldn't agree more. The Emperor's New Clothes mythology of "TI," which

is,

Quoted message said:

unfortunately, well onto the way to hijacking the future of USA swimming

is

Quoted message said:

nothing more than assertion, which runs contrary to (1) the real world of

elite

Quoted message said:

swimming, (2) common sense principles of physics, easily proven to anyone

not

Quoted message said:

too lazy or biased to perform some simple tests, and (3) published, peer-reviewed research.

Let's begin with the legal standards of proof (as opposed to assertion):

Civil standard: Preponderance of evidence

Criminal standard: Proof beyond reasonable doubt.

Let's make this very simple. "TI" says that the proper position for

swimming is

Quoted message said:

head down, neutral position. "TI" says that no specific effort should be

made

Quoted message said:

to maintain lumbar spine tension. "TI" says that one maintains balance by pressing the chest down
into the water, while keeping the head in the

neutral

Quoted message said:

position.

All of this...100% of this...is pure assertion. Backed up only by the

personal

Quoted message said:

experience of its chief proponent, who endlessly cites his experience with thousands of swimmers
(i.e. paid attendees at "TI" workshops).

Additionally, there is first hand experience coaching college level

swimmers at

Quoted message said:

the US Military Academy.

This provides the basis for the above, completely unsubstantiated

assertions.

Quoted message said:

What is the competence level of the "TI" workshop attendees? I honestly

don't

Quoted message said:

know, but I remember Terry telling me that my own personal workshop group

was

Quoted message said:

clearly "above average." My own place within this group was clearly

"average,"

Quoted message said:

as based on my swim golf score and my 50 yard freestyle time. And I am a borderline competent,
elderly fitness swimmer.

Now, I will stipulate, once and for all, that swimmers at my level, if

they

Quoted message said:

make no effort to maintain lumbar spine tone (lumbar "arch"😉 -- will sink

their

Quoted message said:

legs if they raise their heads. But SO WHAT?

This is not the way that good swimmers swim (without a lumbar arch). If

there

Quoted message said:

is one thing abundantly clear from watching any upper level swim meet, it

is

Quoted message said:

that the better swimmers all "arch," which gives them that "high in the

water"

Quoted message said:

look and which provides a very stable platform, allowing them to, if they choose, raise their
heads to counteract leg-sinking torque of the pull.

"TI" says not to make an effort to maintain lumbar spine tension. World

class

Quoted message said:

swimmers say (with their technique) maintain your lumbar spine tension.

Bill

Quoted message said:

Boomer (the original guru on which "TI" principles were based) says it is extremely important to
maintain and train spinal tension.

Here are two images I captured from Volume #2 of the "Boomer Chronicles,"

which

Quoted message said:

devotes at least half of its time to a description of exercises designed

to

Quoted message said:

improve the maintenance of spinal tension:

weisenthal.orgboomarch.jpgOpen ↗

weisenthal.orgboom brd.jpgOpen ↗ (note: this latter image is a

line

Quoted message said:

drawing of a suggested exercise to be performed in the supine position,

back

Quoted message said:

down, face and belly up).

With respect to the West Point swimmers, bless and honor them all, some of

them

Quoted message said:

may well end up dying in the service of US foreign policy, but these are

not

Quoted message said:

swimmers on the level of ian Thorpe, Grant Hackett, or even lower level swimmers with US national
qualifying times.

So we have "TI" ASSERTIONS, based on thousands of novice, spaghetti-backed swimmers.

Supporting my own views are the following:

(1) The fact that, almost without exception, all elite swimmers maintain pronounced lumbar tone
and usually pronounced lumbar arches.

(2). The fact that any person with a normal back can easily prove to himself/herself (taught my my
underwater kickboard exercise) that the

easiest

Quoted message said:

way to establish and maintain a stable horizontal position in the water is

to

Quoted message said:

tighten the muscles which maintain an arch in the L3,4,5 area of the

spine. An

Quoted message said:

ounce of lumbar spine tone is worth a pound of pressing your buoy and

keeping

Quoted message said:

your head in the neutral position.

3. The fact that, in the presence of a taught spine and lumbar arch,

raising

Quoted message said:

the head does not sink the hindquarters of the body but rather raises

them.

Quoted message said:

4. The fact that #3 is perfectly consistent with simple principles of

physics.

Quoted message said:

5. The fact that there are expert, smart people (e.g. Boomer) who agree

with

Quoted message said:

the importance of maintaining a taught spine.

6. The fact that the best (and only) published, peer-review research which relates to the topic of
buoyancy and body position affirms that there is, indeed, a buoyant torque which results from
raising the arms and head in

front

Quoted message said:

of the center of buoyancy.

Now, does all of the above meet the criminal justice standard? I think

yes,

Quoted message said:

but I certainly accept that others would disagree.

Does it meet the civil justice standard? (preponderance of evidence?).

Most

Quoted message said:

assuredly.

Does the "TI" assertion that it's not important to maintain tension in the spine, that kickboard
training is worthless (in spite of decades of

empiric

Quoted message said:

experience to the contrary), and that the way to maintain body position is

to

Quoted message said:

maintain the head in the neutral position and to avoid raising the head is nothing more than
assertion. There is no proof at all. None. Pure

assertion.

Quoted message said:

Based on thousands of novice swimmers. Who are not being properly taught

the

Quoted message said:

fundamentals of truly maintaining a stable aquatic body line. Based on assertions. Not fact.
Certainly not proof.

It's just the Emperor's New Clothes.

Wake up. Look at the real world...all around you. Janet Evans didn't

swim so

Quoted message said:

fast in spite of her decidedly non-"TI" style. Neither does Alex Popov or

Ian

Quoted message said:

Thorpe. They swim that fast because of their non-"TI" techniques. Many

of us

Quoted message said:

can swim better by paying attention to what they do and figuring out how elements of their
technique can put to use in our own swimming.

- Larry Weisenthal

From Fagan:

Subject: Re: Thorpe & Hackett From: Donal Fagan Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com Date: 7/29/2003 4:30 PM
Pacific Standard Time Message-id: <[email hidden]>

(4precious) said:

With regard to your assertion that the kick is necessary to maintain horizontal alignment, you
offer basically no evidence to support that.

No, just a sequence of photographs that show the feet sinking when the head is raised.

Quoted message said:

Yanai's article from way back when basically proved ...

Did you read his methodology?
- He only included swimmers that kick hard.
- He didn't measure them directly. He taped them and used rough approximations of their body
shapes and estimates of their body mass and density to make calculations that varied enormously.
- In his summation, he didn't exclude the kick as a contributing source of the "leg-raising
torque."

Assertion is not proof.

- Donal Fagan

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

Hi Larry,

Thanks for the link, I've downloaded it and will read when I've got the chance.

I think I'm making my point badly - so let me change tack;

There is no ideal scientific and measurable model for any single swimming stroke at this point in
time. Consequently, all of us (notice I included myself in that) attempt to analyse swimmers strokes
by observing what the good and poor swimmers do.

However, this isn't scientific. We could be looking at bad technique applied exceptionally well and
we just don't know, principally because no scientific model exists to test our theories. There are
so many variables that can't be accounted for.

Terry's basic theorum is "It takes less effort to make yourself more aerodynamic than to overcome
the drag forces using strength alone. So, making yourself more aerodynamic will let you swim faster
for longer, far easier than trying to just build strength". (my words not his) This must be a basic
truth that we all can accept. The question to ask may be "Why don't very good swimmers appear to
adopt a more aerodynamic position?" or "If really good swimmers adopted a more aerodynamic position
would they go faster still?".

So your observations that swimmers swim with an arched back, even if 100% true all the time, don't
go any way to disproving Terry's basic theorum. Which is why I believe that a rant against Terry's
methods isn't valid, at least at this point.

Hope this is more clear

Wayne
--
DrClean www.DrClean.co.uk The Best Fabric Cleaning Resource on the Web

"Larry Weisenthal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wayne,

By the way, check out this website:

bcn03.orgsw w 080f f 00 ca.pdfOpen ↗

It's just an example of the wealth of wonderful statistical information available on the official
FINA website where a detailed analysis of each

and

Quoted message said:

every race at the world championships is presented.

Main website is bcn03.orgbcn03.orgOpen ↗

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

(NO! THE "CLAIM" WAS ...

Caps-Lock stuck? "The average buoyant torque ... was directed to raise the legs and lower the head
..." Yanai Toshimasa

Beyond Yanai-san's claim, you have been touting a board-holding exercise which supposedly raises the
legs, implying that this is also going to happen when one swims. I don't see it happening.

I gather you are now claiming something else.

Quoted message said:

Yanai did not qualify his findings of a bouyant torque just because he noted that the kick can
contribute also to maintaining a horizontal body position. His findings and conclusions were
independent of the contribution of the kick).

"...it is postulated that the buoyant force, and perhaps the forces generated by kicks, function to
counteract the torque ..." Yanai Toshimasa

Quoted message said:

With respect to your difficulty in measuring the position of Thorpe's butt, I suggest that you just
look at any above-water videotape. You don't need to go underwater, because Thorpe's butt remains
clearly on the surface at all times;

Then why are *you* presenting caliper measurements that indicate that Thorpe's butt rises? Look at
my page; I clearly indicate that Thorpe's hips stay at the same level. It is his *legs* that begin
to angle down as he lifts his upper body.

Quoted message said:

It's interesting how the fastest sprinters and distance swimmers the world has ever seen swim so
fast despite the fact that Fagan sees the "riding up and down" as a "waste of energy!"

I believe Martin Smith covered that topic.

Quoted message said:

With respect to Maglischo taking a while to get a handle on lift vs drag, this is a straw man ...

"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think." - Mandy Patinkin as Inigo Montoya
in The Princess Bride

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

straw man
n. A person who is set up as cover or a front for a questionable enterprise. An argument or opponent
set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated. A bundle of straw made into the likeness of a man
and often used as a scarecrow.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't have his books handy, but Maglischo cited a number of reputable studies in support of both
lift and drag, studies with names like Counsilman, Schliehauf, and Hay. Apparently, none of these
studies were "the last word," so why should Yanai's be taken as gospel? This is no straw man, it is
clear and cautionary parallel.

And there is a long thread on rss about the efficacy of this and that diet, all supposedly proposed
by experts in their field, all with very different recommendations.

Quoted message said:

Once again, my theses are not simply based on a research paper. They begin with undisputed
observations of the techniques of the greatest swimmers in history.

Actually, they are disputed. That's why I put the clips on a web page. I dispute your claims.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)