This SHOULD rock the sport.

Bill C said:

If the EPO test is being called into question, then what of the blood
doping test, in it's current usage by WADA?

Apples and oranges. Holes punched in the EPO test have nothing to do
with Tyler feeding on other's blood.

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
Bill C <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

But probably wont even bother the UCI and WADA.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2005/aug05/aug03news

EPO test called into question

Quoted message said:

I hope this gets really messy with lawsuits filed for
denying the ability to work with the EU courts based on faulty
procedures. Don't know if this is possible, maybe Sandy can fill us
in? Bill C

What an invitation !! Thanks. Three main points :

- Phonak, Swiss team, not EU, therefore no access to ECJ or benefit from EU
legislation
- Civil courts are not the typical route of access to justice in Europe, and
most individuals remain limited to resolving conflicts in specialized labor
tribunals.
- EU directives and legislation are slowly, poorly, ineptly implemented in
national legislation, especially those which refer to individual rights.

Three ancillary points :

- The moribund Constitutional proposal would have left in place and further
entrenched the Brussels bureaucracy, which is exceptionally insensitive to
individual (especially labor) rights.
- That same Constitutional proposal favors big over small - monopolistic
UCI-type organizations over national or regional ones, which reduces
competition with the excuse that Europe must counter the enormous economies
of the USA and China.
- There is a tendency, in European politics, to favor self-confession
(Maoist, almost) over forthrightness in behavior, so attention is directed
to those who stray from the path of Snow White goodness, rather than to
those who remain within the rules. Bad news gets headlines, and good news
is ignored, so to speak.

EPO, blood-doping, older methods, etc., are all forms of cheating, and
cheating is not, in itself, examined or chastised stringently. When ice was
used to bring some bikes up to the UCI weight limit, with full knowledge
that the weight would be reduced during an event, people giggled at the
clever move. When a racer sucks down carbo-gel (lighter, more effective
that real food), no one sees that this is performance enhancing chemistry.

Cheating successfully, in any form, is what demeans the sport, if, indeed,
cycling at the highest level, remains a sport. The increase in grand tour
wild-cards is one kind of answer. Should the Giro and the Vuelta develop
higher profiles, that would be another, partial one. The stakes are high,
less for the riders, bigger for the promoters and sponsors. So long as they
obtain their selective results, always bigger each year, it will be hard to
eliminate cheating.

Doping is not, of itself, the problem. Perverting the labor market of
capable riders is the problem, IMO, and is no different that the environment
I have experienced in the US, where a person who actually does his complete
job is not rewarded, unless he also works overtime without compensation, and
lives with the fear of loss of his job, when he does not do that. UCI
riders fear job loss, so they cheat, when the pressure is too high to
resist.
--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine
*******

La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
-- Einstein, A.

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

But probably wont even bother the UCI and WADA.

Just goes to show, unless you can get a reduced suspension, always deny any
doping allegations based on test results. Someday the test may be proven
unreliable and you can either get re-instated, or maybe get back your
victories.

Ask Camenzind.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Bill C said:

If the EPO test is being called into question, then what of the blood
doping test, in it's current usage by WADA?

Apples and oranges. Holes punched in the EPO test have nothing to do
with Tyler feeding on other's blood.

It brings up serious questions about how WADA is choosing the tests it uses.
It sure makes them look stupider.
---------------
Alex

Alex Rodriguez a écrit :

Quoted message said:

It brings up serious questions about how WADA is choosing the tests it uses.
It sure makes them look stupider.

WADA works as follows: If [censored] Pound thinks you're guilty, then you
are.

-ilan

Bill C said:

Quoted message said:

If the EPO test is being called into question, then what of the blood
doping test, in it's current usage by WADA?

Kyle Legate said:

Apples and oranges. Holes punched in the EPO test have nothing to do
with Tyler feeding on other's blood.

Something to do with their methodology (eg no peer review) perhaps ?

Bill C said:

Once again it looks like Dr. Coggan was on the right track long before
any of us.

dumbass,

i didn't follow that discussion, but wasn't andy's comment on the
nandralone testing ?

Quoted message said:

Bill C said:

Once again it looks like Dr. Coggan was on the right track long before
any of us.

dumbass,

i didn't follow that discussion, but wasn't andy's comment on the
nandralone testing ?

He may have commented specifically on nandralone, but he has also been
incredibly sceptical about how thorough and objective they were going
to be in testing, and how well they would verify their procedures
before using them to convict people. What I got from conversations with
him was that he was much more worried about there being false
positives, and suspensions rather than there not enforcing the rules.
It looks to me like the failures in procedures, and handling that he
was afraid were going to happen are, and up until now they have just
denied there was a problem and kept right on going. Which is just what
I remember him telling me would happen.
Maybe he'll jump in and clarify this if he still bothers to read this
stuff.
Bill C

Sandy said:

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
Bill C <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

But probably wont even bother the UCI and WADA.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2005/aug05/aug03news

EPO test called into question

Quoted message said:

I hope this gets really messy with lawsuits filed for
denying the ability to work with the EU courts based on faulty
procedures. Don't know if this is possible, maybe Sandy can fill us
in? Bill C

What an invitation !! Thanks. Three main points :

- Phonak, Swiss team, not EU, therefore no access to ECJ or benefit from EU
legislation
- Civil courts are not the typical route of access to justice in Europe, and
most individuals remain limited to resolving conflicts in specialized labor
tribunals.
- EU directives and legislation are slowly, poorly, ineptly implemented in
national legislation, especially those which refer to individual rights.

Three ancillary points :

- The moribund Constitutional proposal would have left in place and further
entrenched the Brussels bureaucracy, which is exceptionally insensitive to
individual (especially labor) rights.
- That same Constitutional proposal favors big over small - monopolistic
UCI-type organizations over national or regional ones, which reduces
competition with the excuse that Europe must counter the enormous economies
of the USA and China.
- There is a tendency, in European politics, to favor self-confession
(Maoist, almost) over forthrightness in behavior, so attention is directed
to those who stray from the path of Snow White goodness, rather than to
those who remain within the rules. Bad news gets headlines, and good news
is ignored, so to speak.

EPO, blood-doping, older methods, etc., are all forms of cheating, and
cheating is not, in itself, examined or chastised stringently. When ice was
used to bring some bikes up to the UCI weight limit, with full knowledge
that the weight would be reduced during an event, people giggled at the
clever move. When a racer sucks down carbo-gel (lighter, more effective
that real food), no one sees that this is performance enhancing chemistry.

Cheating successfully, in any form, is what demeans the sport, if, indeed,
cycling at the highest level, remains a sport. The increase in grand tour
wild-cards is one kind of answer. Should the Giro and the Vuelta develop
higher profiles, that would be another, partial one. The stakes are high,
less for the riders, bigger for the promoters and sponsors. So long as they
obtain their selective results, always bigger each year, it will be hard to
eliminate cheating.

Doping is not, of itself, the problem. Perverting the labor market of
capable riders is the problem, IMO, and is no different that the environment
I have experienced in the US, where a person who actually does his complete
job is not rewarded, unless he also works overtime without compensation, and
lives with the fear of loss of his job, when he does not do that. UCI
riders fear job loss, so they cheat, when the pressure is too high to
resist.
--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine
*******

La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
-- Einstein, A.

Thanks for the great reply. Sounds to mke like the riders are pretty
much stuck then no matter what. This is just another reason that the
riders need a strong union, but I don't know if we'll ever see it.
Somebody has to, if not be looking out for them, then at least be
available and impartial to hear cases like this. I'm not sure that the
CAS is up to it. Maybe with a union on the riders side then they'd have
better luck with making things fair and open.
Really appreciate the expert information on how this all works.
Bill C

Sandy is only correct for Europe. The fact is that WADA has an American
arm and Tyler is an American and could bring them to court in the USA.
Since WADA is fully supported by the IOC they have a LOT to lose.
Frankly, I don't understand why Tyler hasn't filed already. I believe
he's being far too nice in this case.

Here's my point - EVEN if Tyler is 100% guilty, WADA and the UCI have
no business using a questionable test to deny employment to Hamilton or
ANYONE ELSE!

Tom Kunich said:

Sandy is only correct for Europe. The fact is that WADA has an American
arm and Tyler is an American and could bring them to court in the USA.
Since WADA is fully supported by the IOC they have a LOT to lose.
Frankly, I don't understand why Tyler hasn't filed already. I believe
he's being far too nice in this case.

Here's my point - EVEN if Tyler is 100% guilty, WADA and the UCI have
no business using a questionable test to deny employment to Hamilton or
ANYONE ELSE!

I am in complete agreement with you on this. They really need to make
sure that any tests they use are fully researched and verified by an
independent agency whether that is a university, independent lab or
what, but they need to be much more careful and open. That said though,
there have been more than enough screwups from US police and govt. labs
to lead me to believe that it's not going to get any better anytime
soon.
I'm really leaning towards the union idea. I think that might be the
only way to force changes from inside the sport without tying up
valuable police and govt. resources which could actually be doing
something useful instead of chasing a bunch of lycra clad people
around.
Bill C

When carbo gel (comprised of actual carbohydrates) becomes capable of
boosting red blood cells, then we'll have a nice discussion.

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sandy is only correct for Europe. The fact is that WADA has an American
arm and Tyler is an American and could bring them to court in the USA.
Since WADA is fully supported by the IOC they have a LOT to lose.
Frankly, I don't understand why Tyler hasn't filed already. I believe
he's being far too nice in this case.

Here's my point - EVEN if Tyler is 100% guilty, WADA and the UCI have
no business using a questionable test to deny employment to Hamilton or
ANYONE ELSE!

Where were you when doping accusations destroyed reputations/careers/lives
before Hamilton tested positive? I remember fairly well how ruthless people
were to 'dopers' back when Hamilton was considered innocent beyond doubt.
Sorry but I do not believe you are sincere.

"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sandy is only correct for Europe. The fact is that WADA has an American
arm and Tyler is an American and could bring them to court in the USA.
Since WADA is fully supported by the IOC they have a LOT to lose.
Frankly, I don't understand why Tyler hasn't filed already. I believe
he's being far too nice in this case.

Here's my point - EVEN if Tyler is 100% guilty, WADA and the UCI have
no business using a questionable test to deny employment to Hamilton or
ANYONE ELSE!

Where were you when doping accusations destroyed reputations/careers/lives
before Hamilton tested positive? I remember fairly well how ruthless
people were to 'dopers' back when Hamilton was considered innocent beyond
doubt. Sorry but I do not believe you are sincere.

You don't remember ME being "ruthless" about dopers without hard evidence.
And LC clearly shows anabolic steroids and levels. That's what my screaming
was about when Moninger was screwed. He had been tested the day before and
was clean and then the second day he had trace amount of a steroid breakdown
component and was give 2 years if memory serves.

It was plain to any scientist that he couldn't have been taking steroids at
that time because the levels were to low to have any effect at all.

I personally don't remember too many doping cases.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Alex Rodriguez a écrit :

Quoted message said:

It brings up serious questions about how WADA is choosing the tests it uses.
It sure makes them look stupider.

WADA works as follows: If [censored] Pound thinks you're guilty, then you
are.

Unfortunately, that seems to be truth.
--------------
Alex