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This is acceptable?????

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Road Cycling
Published
29 December 2007
Last activity
12 January 2008
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Bill C
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  1. Bill C said:

    On Dec 30, 10:03 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 17:45:51 -0800 (PST), Bill C

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/dec07/dec29news

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    GPS tracking for athletes?

    Quoted message said:

    I saw that and was very disturbed. It's just wrong.

    The whole scene is insane. It's like a twisted parody. They are doing
    and suggesting things that make the "patriot act" look like a joke,
    and we aren't talking trying to save innocent lives, or stop suicidal
    terrorists, we're talking bike racing.
    Somewhere along the line "athlete" has ceased to mean "human" in the
    insane war on doping. If it's wrong in trying to prevent mass murder,
    how much more wrong is it in enetrtainment?
    I never thought that I'd see the day they need to apply basic,
    international human rights laws to a sport, other than maybe in
    dealing with soccer hooligans.
    The whole thing is sick.

    dumbass,

    are you really this earnest and stupid ?

    the original article is someone's musing and there's isn't an actual
    proposal on the table - what are you going to get fired up about
    next ? swift's "a modest proposal" ?

    this is a high tech spin on the current whereabouts system - the idea
    of tracking chip just makes it seem more sinister and 1984ish.

    if you have a problem with this then you should already have a problem
    with the current whereabouts system.

  2. Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    "Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    When I had my shoulder done the surgeon plugged a line into the joint
    connected to a spring loaded pump that pumped anasthetic into the
    joint. I can't see any reason that one of those pumping "PotBelge"
    couldn't be hooked up to feed from a bidon, or jersey pocket.

    I could build such a thing the size of a quarter that could be implanted
    under the skin and be almost invisible. If you were to use about a half
    dozen different extremely powerful steroids the dosage could be so small
    that it couldn't be detected and if you did it right it would jazz up your
    hormone system so much that they'd think it was a freak natural.

    but is it art ?

  3. On Dec 31, 5:35 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Bill C said:

    On Dec 30, 10:03 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 17:45:51 -0800 (PST), Bill C

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/dec07/dec29news

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >GPS tracking for athletes?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I saw that and was very disturbed.  It's just wrong.

    Quoted message said:

    The whole scene is insane. It's like a twisted parody. They are doing
    and suggesting things that make the "patriot act" look like a joke,
    and we aren't talking trying to save innocent lives, or stop suicidal
    terrorists, we're talking bike racing.
     Somewhere along the line "athlete" has ceased to mean "human" in the
    insane war on doping. If it's wrong in trying to prevent mass murder,
    how much more wrong is it in enetrtainment?
     I never thought that I'd see the day they need to apply basic,
    international human rights laws to a sport, other than maybe in
    dealing with soccer hooligans.
     The whole thing is sick.

    dumbass,

    are you really this earnest and stupid ?

    the original article is someone's musing and there's isn't an actual
    proposal on the table - what are you going to get fired up about
    next ? swift's "a modest proposal" ?

    this is a high tech spin on the current whereabouts system - the idea
    of tracking chip just makes it seem more sinister and 1984ish.

    if you have a problem with this then you should already have a problem
    with the current whereabouts system.- Hide quoted text -

    - Show quoted text -

    Seems to me that Orwell, and Huxley were just extrapolating and
    thinking? Were they wrong too?
    I have serious problems with the current system, as you know. I'm not
    sure how things will play out when it does get to the Hague, but given
    Louise Arbour's general attitude and understanding of "human rights",
    and taking that as representative of, especially, EU thinking, I'm
    betting they've got a good shot at forcing a rethink of the system,
    even as currently run.
    The only thing I'm not sure about is the political will to reverse
    the grandstanding that's gone on at the expense of due process, and
    reasonable treatment.
    Notice I didn't dispute Donald's choice of my seasonal whatever
    present? The trick is to miss the windmills and get the nasties.
    Sometimes it's pretty damned tough to tell which is which, and they
    morph too.
    Fight for basic principles, and do the best you can. That's all
    anyone can do. When noone gives a [censored] the exploiters and scumbags
    win.
    Bill C

  4. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Bill C said:


    The whole scene is insane. It's like a twisted parody. They are doing
    and suggesting things that make the "patriot act" look like a joke,
    and we aren't talking trying to save innocent lives, or stop suicidal
    terrorists, we're talking bike racing.
    Somewhere along the line "athlete" has ceased to mean "human" in the
    insane war on doping. If it's wrong in trying to prevent mass murder,
    how much more wrong is it in enetrtainment?
    I never thought that I'd see the day they need to apply basic,
    international human rights laws to a sport, other than maybe in
    dealing with soccer hooligans.
    The whole thing is sick.

    the original article is someone's musing and there's isn't an actual
    proposal on the table - what are you going to get fired up about
    next ? swift's "a modest proposal" ?

    Next week YOU will be recommending it to everyone.

  5. William Asher said:

    Is Tourquemada another version of the PowerTap?

    Its the next generation in power based training devices.
    The main innovation are electrical contacts that attach
    to the riders testicles and generate a shock equal to the
    difference between the target wattage and the actual
    wattage if the actual wattage is below the target wattage
    (if the actual wattage is above the target wattage the
    riders pleasure centers are activated).

    However its doubtful whether the device will see the light
    of day due to protests from the animal rights organizations
    as the developers are using a gorilla riding around a
    track for testing (apparently the gorilla finds the corners
    particularly painful).

  6. Donald Munro said:
    William Asher said:

    Is Tourquemada another version of the PowerTap?

    Its the next generation in power based training devices.
    The main innovation are electrical contacts that attach
    to the riders testicles and generate a shock equal to the
    difference between the target wattage and the actual
    wattage if the actual wattage is below the target wattage
    (if the actual wattage is above the target wattage the
    riders pleasure centers are activated).

    However its doubtful whether the device will see the light
    of day due to protests from the animal rights organizations
    as the developers are using a gorilla riding around a
    track for testing (apparently the gorilla finds the corners
    particularly painful).

    <LOL>

    Bill

  7. On Dec 31 2007, 11:40 pm, Donald Munro <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    However its doubtful whether the device will see the light
    of day due to protests from the animal rights organizations...

    If animals have rights, then I hope too that they can be taxed. I
    need a little help buying Robert his christmas presents.

  8. Bill C said:

    Seems to me that Orwell, and Huxley were just extrapolating and
    thinking? Were they wrong too?
    I have serious problems with the current system, as you know. I'm not
    sure how things will play out when it does get to the Hague, but given
    Louise Arbour's general attitude and understanding of "human rights",
    and taking that as representative of, especially, EU thinking, I'm
    betting they've got a good shot at forcing a rethink of the system,
    even as currently run.

    dumbass,

    as ben pointed out, there is a current lo-tech whereabouts system
    where an athlete is supposed to report their whereabouts at all times
    and if they aren't where they said they would be when the dope cops
    come looking for them they can be penalized.

    if this chip system comes to pass it will be because the president of
    the chip company is friends with the ADA and not because it in any way
    helps the ADAs catch dopers.

    perhaps you think there shouldn't be out of competition tests -- which
    is a defensible position, but that has nothing to do with this stupid
    chip proposal which is a hi-tech red herring, just like the UCI asking
    for riders' DNA. neither "innovation" can actually catch dopers the
    current system can't.

  9. In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    SLAVE of THE STATE said:

    On Dec 31 2007, 11:40 pm, Donald Munro <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    However its doubtful whether the device will see the light
    of day due to protests from the animal rights organizations...

    If animals have rights, then I hope too that they can be taxed. I
    need a little help buying Robert his christmas presents.

    The license fee bill for my dog ("Terrier X" according to the invoice,
    which makes it sound like some sort of evil government project to create
    the Jack Russell for the New Millennium) just arrived, so yeah, animals
    can be taxed.

    They came for the hamsters, but I did not speak up because I was not a
    hamster,

    --
    Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
    "My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
    Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

  10. Ryan Cousineau said:


    They came for the hamsters, but I did not speak up because I was not a
    hamster,

    In Montana, they've been coming for the sheep for over a century and it
    hasn't caused any real problems. Of course, they stay for the scenery.

    --
    Bill Asher

  11. In article <rcousine-01A8BE.15425002012008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,

    Ryan Cousineau said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    SLAVE of THE STATE said:

    On Dec 31 2007, 11:40 pm, Donald Munro <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    However its doubtful whether the device will see the light
    of day due to protests from the animal rights organizations...

    If animals have rights, then I hope too that they can be taxed. I
    need a little help buying Robert his christmas presents.

    The license fee bill for my dog ("Terrier X" according to the invoice,
    which makes it sound like some sort of evil government project to create
    the Jack Russell for the New Millennium) just arrived, so yeah, animals
    can be taxed.

    I hope they don't decide to charge by the foot.

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    Now it's raining pitchforks and women,
    But I've already got a pitchfork...

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

  12. Ryan Cousineau said:
    SLAVE of THE STATE said:

    If animals have rights, then I hope too that they can be taxed. I
    need a little help buying Robert his christmas presents.

    The license fee bill for my dog ("Terrier X" according to the invoice,
    which makes it sound like some sort of evil government project to create
    the Jack Russell for the New Millennium) just arrived, so yeah, animals
    can be taxed.

    "Terrier X" is the name your dog took when it
    renounced its slave name.

    Quoted message said:


    They came for the hamsters, but I did not speak up because I was not a
    hamster,

    First against the wheel when the hamstervolution comes!

    Ben

  13. On Jan 2, 6:37 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Bill C said:

    Seems to me that Orwell, and Huxley were just extrapolating and
    thinking? Were they wrong too?
     I have serious problems with the current system, as you know. I'm not
    sure how things will play out when it does get to the Hague, but given
    Louise Arbour's general attitude and understanding of "human rights",
    and taking that as representative of, especially, EU thinking, I'm
    betting they've got a good shot at forcing a rethink of the system,
    even as currently run.

    dumbass,

    as ben pointed out, there is a current lo-tech whereabouts system
    where an athlete is supposed to report their whereabouts at all times
    and if they aren't where they said they would be when the dope cops
    come looking for them they can be penalized.

    if this chip system comes to pass it will be because the president of
    the chip company is friends with the ADA and not because it in any way
    helps the ADAs catch dopers.

    perhaps you think there shouldn't be out of competition tests -- which
    is a defensible position, but that has nothing to do with this stupid
    chip proposal which is a hi-tech red herring, just like the UCI asking
    for riders' DNA. neither "innovation" can actually catch dopers the
    current system can't.

    Amit my reaction had nothing to do with fighting doping, as such. The
    State has little, to no place inside humans, bodies, period. This
    isn't even the State.
    As for the other OOC testing, that's somewhat less invasive, and IMO
    a reasonable requirement. I do object to the location tracking. The
    better way to do that is to have the athletes provide a contact
    number, or person where they can be reached. Give them 48 hours, or 24
    for that matter, to make themselves available to the testers. Missing
    multiple tests should be then penalized by suspension, or whatever.
    BTW this was pretty much how chunks of the military handled senior
    command officers. We didn't always know where they were, but could
    get 99.5% of them immediately by phone or radio, and if they were
    going to be unable to be contacted normally they would have something
    else set up.
    There was hell to pay, for them, if we couldn't find one of them.
    Bill C

  14. William Asher said:
    Ryan Cousineau said:

    They came for the hamsters, but I did not speak up because I was not a
    hamster,

    In Montana, they've been coming for the sheep for over a century and it
    hasn't caused any real problems.  Of course, they stay for the scenery.

    Thanks for reminding me. It had slipped my mind that the sheeple love
    paying taxes.

  15. Quoted message said:

    Amit my reaction had nothing to do with fighting doping, as such. The
    State has little, to no place inside humans, bodies, period. This
    isn't even the State.

    That is correct, it isn't the state: the riders are not coerced into
    riding.

    Playing pretend for a moment by assuming that professional cycling is
    an open market free of the distortions of guvmint, whose rights have
    been violated?

    I mean, if participation in a particular open market is by consent,
    then by what reasoning can a rider complain? They consented to the
    rules.

    Under (natural) rights doctrine, the only rights you can not waive
    away by consent are inalienable rights. What inalienable right has
    been consented away? If they don't want their whereabouts known, or
    take dope tests, they simply do something other than race a bike. No
    one is forcing them to race a bike.

    (I'm talking actual (natural) rights, not goofy-ass euro-trash notions
    of "rights," like a "right to work." The difference between actual
    rights and powers is often exposed by the "duty-to-perform" test. If
    the law/rule imposes a duty-to-perform (on others), then it is a
    power, not a right. If the rule/law is a restraint on behavior,
    rather than a duty-to-perform, then the rule/law _may_ be a protection
    of (negative) actual rights. The "negative" comes from the fact that
    it creates a rule of restraint, rather than duty-to-perform, which is
    a "positive."😉

  16. SLAVE of THE STATE said:


    Thanks for reminding me. It had slipped my mind that the sheeple love
    paying taxes.

    It's all about the fleece.

    --
    Bill Asher

  17. "SLAVE of THE STATE" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Amit my reaction had nothing to do with fighting doping, as such. The
    State has little, to no place inside humans, bodies, period. This
    isn't even the State.

    That is correct, it isn't the state: the riders are not coerced into
    riding.

    Playing pretend for a moment by assuming that professional cycling is
    an open market free of the distortions of guvmint, whose rights have
    been violated?

    I mean, if participation in a particular open market is by consent,
    then by what reasoning can a rider complain? They consented to the
    rules.

    Under (natural) rights doctrine, the only rights you can not waive
    away by consent are inalienable rights. What inalienable right has
    been consented away? If they don't want their whereabouts known, or
    take dope tests, they simply do something other than race a bike. No
    one is forcing them to race a bike.

    (I'm talking actual (natural) rights, not goofy-ass euro-trash notions
    of "rights," like a "right to work." The difference between actual
    rights and powers is often exposed by the "duty-to-perform" test. If
    the law/rule imposes a duty-to-perform (on others), then it is a
    power, not a right. If the rule/law is a restraint on behavior,
    rather than a duty-to-perform, then the rule/law _may_ be a protection
    of (negative) actual rights. The "negative" comes from the fact that
    it creates a rule of restraint, rather than duty-to-perform, which is
    a "positive."😉

    While I'm half in your camp I'm also half in Bill's. I think that if they
    race bicycles that they ought to submit to any tests they want to make
    BEFORE, DURING OR AFTER THE RACE at the race site. I do not believe that
    they ought to be able to turn up on your doorstep and demand that you be
    there and also that you submit to poking and prodding while you may be about
    to go on a date etc.

    What this means is that they have to develop REAL tests for finding drug use
    and not the phony [censored] they're often using today such as measuring
    testosterone/epitestosterone ratios and if they don't like that switching to
    a variable standard of isotope testing.

    It should be remembered that the standard not only changes from continent to
    continent depending upon the DIET of the athlete but also from individual to
    individual for the same reasons.

    The fact is that Floyd's initial tests were over the UCI standard of 4:1
    which was a phony standard designed to cause more testing. The medical
    community recognizes up to 6:1 as being the high side of NORMAL for 99% of
    the male population.

    What is even more surprising is that Floyd's initial test was only 5.6:1 and
    the second test on the same sample was 11:1. This demonstrated beyond a
    shadow of a doubt that there was a contaminant, probably a bacteria, in the
    sample that was consuming the testosterone. Moreover the ratios were NOT
    caused by higher than normal testosterone but LOWER than normal
    epitestosterone in the sample. Another sign of a contaminant.

    The French lab that completed the isotope tests demonstrated a level of
    incompetence not just in Floyd's tests but many other tests as well.

    So this entire system of dope testing needs to be completely revamped from
    top to bottom.

  18. Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    "SLAVE of THE STATE" <[email hidden]> wrote in

    Quoted message said:

    While I'm half in your camp I'm also half in Bill's. I think that if they
    race bicycles that they ought to submit to any tests they want to make
    BEFORE, DURING OR AFTER THE RACE at the race site. I do not believe that
    they ought to be able to turn up on your doorstep and demand that you be
    there and also that you submit to poking and prodding while you may be about
    to go on a date etc.

    if there's going to be a loophole there might as well not be any
    testing at all because anyone who's half smart will exploit that (ask
    sinkewitz).

    Quoted message said:

    What this means is that they have to develop REAL tests for finding drug use
    and not the phony [censored] they're often using today

    I agree, because it is effectively 1997. There is still no way to test
    for autologous blood doping which is what fuentes riders like jaksche
    were doing once EPO became detectable.

    Anyone who tests positive is either stupid, reckless or poor.

  19. SLAVE of THE STATE said:
    Quoted message said:

    Amit my reaction had nothing to do with fighting doping, as such. The
    State has little, to no place inside humans, bodies, period. This
    isn't even the State.

    That is correct, it isn't the state: the riders are not coerced into
    riding.

    Playing pretend for a moment by assuming that professional cycling is
    an open market free of the distortions of guvmint, whose rights have
    been violated?

    I mean, if participation in a particular open market is by consent,
    then by what reasoning can a rider complain?  They consented to the
    rules.

    Under (natural) rights doctrine, the only rights you can not waive
    away by consent are inalienable rights.  What inalienable right has
    been consented away?  If they don't want their whereabouts known, or
    take dope tests, they simply do something other than race a bike. No
    one is forcing them to race a bike.

    (I'm talking actual (natural) rights, not goofy-ass euro-trash notions
    of "rights," like a "right to work."  The difference between actual
    rights and powers is often exposed by the "duty-to-perform" test.  If
    the law/rule imposes a duty-to-perform (on others), then it is a
    power, not a right.  If the rule/law is a restraint on behavior,
    rather than a duty-to-perform, then the rule/law _may_ be a protection
    of (negative) actual rights.  The "negative" comes from the fact that
    it creates a rule of restraint, rather than duty-to-perform, which is
    a "positive."😉

    There are NO rights, natural or otherwise. Any "rights" are granted
    through the sufference of fellow humans, nothing more, nothing less.
    "Rights" are what the morality of the community says you are entitled
    to, and some others, which you are calling "natural" rights I guess
    that people have been claiming longer. BFD, try telling a tornado,
    Tsunami, or [censored] Grizzly about your "rights".
    After you're born, you have the right to die. Not a single damned
    thing other than that is guaranteed.
    The rest we fight for, and grant to each other. Any "right" you think
    is more valid than any other is due to your prejudices, and priorities
    as opposed to the other persons. Not any more valid other than in YOUR
    view.
    Just because they have other views on what constitutes rights,
    doesn't make their positions any more, or less valid than yours, mine,
    or anyone elses.
    Pick the artificial construct that makes you happy and snuggle up to
    your fantasy, because reality doesn't give a [censored] what any of us
    think.
    Bill C

  20. William Asher said:
    SLAVE of THE STATE said:

    Thanks for reminding me.  It had slipped my mind that the sheeple love
    paying taxes.

    It's all about the fleece.

    Indeed. Very funny.

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