Things I want/need to know.

Micheal Artindale said:

After rtk's post, I will try this again.

Please do not post unless it is a helpful answer.

First thing I would like to learn how to do properly is: Fly.

As I understand it, you breath on the second arm push.

1. Breathing on every arm pull is normal.
2.
3.
4.

Quoted message said:

Any drills that would emphasize the breathing, and teach my brain to do it
right?

1. Swim lengths of butterfly, and breath on every arm pull.
2.
3.
4.

"Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Micheal Artindale said:

After rtk's post, I will try this again.

Please do not post unless it is a helpful answer.

First thing I would like to learn how to do properly is: Fly.

As I understand it, you breath on the second arm push.

1. Breathing on every arm pull is normal.

No.

Almost all good butterflyers breathe less often than every stroke; many will
(in short races, or short training swims) breathe every 3 or more strokes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Any drills that would emphasize the breathing, and teach my brain to do

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

right?

1. Swim lengths of butterfly, and breath on every arm pull.

No.

Beginners are unlikely to have the strength to do the stroke correctly for
more than a few cycles, especially if they have the added load of lifting
the head.

Much better advice would be for the original poster to do single-arm fly,
for rhythmand arm-leg co-ordination; and some single lengths of fly with as
few breaths as possible (resting after each) for strength and integration of
the breathing motions.

Swimming fly is an elusive skill. It seems like some people come to it
naturally but that is not my situtaion.

Drills:
My coach has us swim longer amounts of fly slowly, 100-200 yards at a
time, and in order to accomplish it he tells us to look at our feet
when our heads go in the water. It works; you will surprise yourself.
Then as you gain strength and coordination, swim a quicker, normal
stroke.

Another way is to swim fly with fins as you build butterfly
coordination and strength.

I had to change my mindset from focusing on getting my shoulders and
chest out of the water to one where I focused on pressing shoulders
into the water and reaching hands forward and getting my backside up as
my legs kick down. Focusing on pressing shoulders down somehow
automatically made the other end of my stroke easier so I didn't have
to strain on the arm recovery/breathing end of the stroke.
Maybe it is like yogic breathing where you focus on the exhale in order
to make inhaling deeper.

Good luck.

Krolek

krolek said:

Swimming fly is an elusive skill. It seems like some people come to it
naturally but that is not my situtaion.

Drills:
My coach has us swim longer amounts of fly slowly, 100-200 yards at a
time, and in order to accomplish it he tells us to look at our feet
when our heads go in the water. It works; you will surprise yourself.
Then as you gain strength and coordination, swim a quicker, normal
stroke.

Another way is to swim fly with fins as you build butterfly
coordination and strength.

I had to change my mindset from focusing on getting my shoulders and
chest out of the water to one where I focused on pressing shoulders
into the water and reaching hands forward and getting my backside up as
my legs kick down. Focusing on pressing shoulders down somehow
automatically made the other end of my stroke easier so I didn't have
to strain on the arm recovery/breathing end of the stroke.
Maybe it is like yogic breathing where you focus on the exhale in order
to make inhaling deeper.

Good luck.

Krolek

Ten words or less, Krolek.

Quoted message said:

Any drills that would emphasize the breathing, and teach my brain to
do it right?

1. Swim lengths of butterfly, and breath on every arm pull.
2. Swim slow butterlfy; see your feet when head is underwater.
3. Swim lengths butterfly with fins.
4.

A great many masters swimmers, some them quite good, swim fly the wrong
way. I don't know if it's a DQ or not. They will kick at the START of
the stroke to help maintain momentum. That allows them to glide and
rest a moment after completing a stroke and putting their head back
into the water. It's impossible to swim fly after gliding a bit
because it's too hard to get your momentum back with your arms alone.
Hence the dolphin kick at the start of the pull instead of the end.
That's the hard part of fly - kick at the end of the pull while you
breath, then as your head goes back into the water, kick again and
start pull immediately. So correct fly is pull / kick / kick. But
many people do kick / pull / kick. Anybody know if that is a DQ?

Eric

PS Even elites will often omit one of the kicks to conserve energy.
It's the kick as they go to breath. But you MUST kick as the head goes
back into the water to get your hips back to the surface and generate
some velocity for the next pull. Nobody omits that kick.

Hi, Michael

I recomend you to read this short article

https://swimsearch.com/articles/swimmagazine/articles/199505-03swim_art.asp

It's in the line of the previous comment. I think that in the first
phase of the learning, you should almost try to avoid the second kick.
That is, focus just in the first kick, the one which goes with the
hands entry and catch: don't kick when the hands enter the water, but a
moment later, and try that your feet don't breake the surface as you
prepare for this kick. Make this kick soft with good feeling, and at
the same time your hands should go for the catch. Forget about the
second kick, you don't need it to breath.

I also suggest you that while learning to swim butterfly, either breath
every stroke or don't breath at all. It is a matter or rhythm, if you
breath in some cycles and don't breath in others you will destroy your
rhythm. In fact, I suggest you to breath every stroke.

This was regarding the style. But if you don't have abs and lower back
strenght you will go nowhere. Probably the best you can do for the
moment is to spend 2 to 3 months doing only body dolphin kicks. Use
fins if you want. Vertical dolphin kicks are a good excersise as well.
See:

http://www.svl.ch/shortaxis/breaststroke.html

http://www.goswim.tv/drilloftheweek_comments.php?id=1007_0_20_0_C

Don't expect to be swimming fly from scratch in less than 6 months.

Quoted message said:

Ten words or less, Krolek.

What?

Is that what I get for trying to help? What a useless group. See you
all in the pool. I am done.

Krolek.

krolek said:

Quoted message said:

Ten words or less, Krolek.

What?

Is that what I get for trying to help? What a useless group. See you
all in the pool. I am done.

You were trying to help a guy with ADD. We have been trying to help
him with swimming for... oh... it seems like quite a long time now.
But maybe it just seems that way because, having ADD to deal with, he
doesn't do well with long descriptions of what to do, so we have
agreed with him to keep our answers short.

You think what you got this time was bad? Stick around. You haven't
run into jtaylor yet, or any of the dwindling number of swimmers who
are still proud they voted for George W. Bush and Deadey [censored] Cheney.

"Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

krolek said:

Quoted message said:

Ten words or less, Krolek.

What?

Is that what I get for trying to help? What a useless group. See you
all in the pool. I am done.

You were trying to help a guy with ADD. We have been trying to help
him with swimming for... oh... it seems like quite a long time now.
But maybe it just seems that way because, having ADD to deal with, he
doesn't do well with long descriptions of what to do, so we have
agreed with him to keep our answers short.

You think what you got this time was bad? Stick around. You haven't
run into jtaylor yet, or any of the dwindling number of swimmers who
are still proud they voted for George W. Bush and Deadey [censored] Cheney.

Martin,

You need to drink some more acid and chew some more nails. Hell, I'm
starting to like you.

Joskin

Lay horizontally in water; move appendages; turn head to breathe.

krolek said:

Lay horizontally in water; move appendages; turn head to breathe.

Keep hands at hips, kick head up, kick head down.

rtk

"rtk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

krolek said:

Lay horizontally in water; move appendages; turn head to breathe.

Keep hands at hips, kick head up, kick head down.

don't forget to breathe through your ass and wear goggles on your ears

Quoted message said:

rtk

diablo said:

"rtk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

krolek said:

Lay horizontally in water; move appendages; turn head to breathe.

Keep hands at hips, kick head up, kick head down.

don't forget to breathe through your ass and wear goggles on your ears

Quoted message said:

rtk

Heh. Slightly more seriously though I'll plagiarize myself:

Keep it: long, loose, level, light & low.

--Mike

diablo said:

"rtk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

krolek said:

Lay horizontally in water; move appendages; turn head to breathe.

Keep hands at hips, kick head up, kick head down.

don't forget to breathe through your ass and wear goggles on your ears

Quoted message said:

rtk

okay, smart guy. I was trying to stay in the 10 word limit.
I've found that the timing of the kick and head motion is
the whole obstacle to swimming fly, so I've suggested to
quite a few non-flyers that they not use their arms at all,
but just do the kick that enables them to raise their head
and the other kick that drives their head down. It's very
clumsy to do if you don't already do fly, but once it can be
managed, adding arms is very easy. It's just a rhythm
thing, it seems to me.

rtk

Here's a horrid little video of my solution to the butterfly
breathing problem.
http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/e/x/exk7/MoviePages/rtk.html
It takes forever to load even though the file is miniscule.

rtk

"rtk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

diablo said:

"rtk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

krolek wrote:

>Lay horizontally in water; move appendages; turn head to breathe.
>

Keep hands at hips, kick head up, kick head down.

don't forget to breathe through your ass and wear goggles on your ears

Quoted message said:

rtk

okay, smart guy. I was trying to stay in the 10 word limit. I've found
that the timing of the kick and head motion is the whole obstacle to
swimming fly, so I've suggested to quite a few non-flyers that they not
use their arms at all, but just do the kick that enables them to raise
their head and the other kick that drives their head down. It's very
clumsy to do if you don't already do fly, but once it can be managed,
adding arms is very easy. It's just a rhythm thing, it seems to me.

rtk

no, you're right, I'm sorry Ruth...but the two quotations before mine seemed
pretty abstract...guess you had to be there.

Frankly this whole Artindale thing is getting pretty bloody absurd. I give
you all props for sticking with it though.

This guy is fast becoming the god of Trolls without even knowing he's doing
it. Genius.

diablo said:

no, you're right, I'm sorry Ruth...but the two quotations before mine seemed
pretty abstract...guess you had to be there.

Frankly this whole Artindale thing is getting pretty bloody absurd. I give
you all props for sticking with it though.

This guy is fast becoming the god of Trolls without even knowing he's doing
it. Genius.

I'm spending more time than I want at the computer,
struggling with bits of movies I'm shooting, going through
3000 photos uploaded from a 100 year accumulation in albums,
figuring out how to do assemble it all in iMovie, how to do
voice overs, and generally getting dizzy with the choices
offered by enigmatic numbers and letters. Every so often,
rather than run down the street naked and tearing my hair
out, screaming at the gods of icons and iDVDs and iPhotos
and iTunes, I just jump into the quite entertaining muddy
puddle of r.s.s. The cast of characters, including myself,
is a cheery distraction from this biodoc that could take me
longer than the life span of its soon to be 80 year old
subject. Will M.A. make it across Canada doing fly? Will
L.W. require a 12 step program to recover from his addiction
to his flying machine? Will M.S. leave him in his dust?
Will jTaylor give any of us a passing grade on our blue
books? Will O continue his drag on the Gauloise off the
wall? Trolls, drama queens, party poopers, whatever,
whoever - it's diverting, so I'm glad to see them all here.

Now, back to Google, where I'm searching for views of
Istanbul circa 1926.

rtk

rtk said:

diablo said:

no, you're right, I'm sorry Ruth...but the two quotations before mine
seemed pretty abstract...guess you had to be there.

Frankly this whole Artindale thing is getting pretty bloody absurd. I
give you all props for sticking with it though.

This guy is fast becoming the god of Trolls without even knowing he's
doing it. Genius.

I'm spending more time than I want at the computer, struggling with bits
of movies I'm shooting, going through 3000 photos uploaded from a 100
year accumulation in albums, figuring out how to do assemble it all in
iMovie, how to do voice overs, and generally getting dizzy with the
choices offered by enigmatic numbers and letters. Every so often,
rather than run down the street naked and tearing my hair out, screaming
at the gods of icons and iDVDs and iPhotos and iTunes, I just jump into
the quite entertaining muddy puddle of r.s.s. The cast of characters,
including myself, is a cheery distraction from this biodoc that could
take me longer than the life span of its soon to be 80 year old
subject. Will M.A. make it across Canada doing fly? Will L.W. require
a 12 step program to recover from his addiction to his flying machine?
Will M.S. leave him in his dust? Will jTaylor give any of us a passing
grade on our blue books? Will O continue his drag on the Gauloise off
the wall? Trolls, drama queens, party poopers, whatever, whoever - it's
diverting, so I'm glad to see them all here.

Now, back to Google, where I'm searching for views of Istanbul circa 1926.

rtk

I hate to say this, but this has been the most useful discussion of fly
we have ever had, and gives me hope that I may someday get beyond my own
special stroke, the stationary butterfly, more poetically called the
dying butterfly. Soon to be a sad swimming opera....
Madelaine "Madam" Butterfly

Shouldn't that be "My Damn Butterfly"?