The XO Factor

Quoted message said:

XO factor = XANTHENE OXIDASE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Quoted message said:

WHAT IS HOMOGENIZATION?

When milk is passed through a fine filter at pressures equal to 4,000
pounds per square inch, the fat globules (liposomes) are made smaller
(micronized) by a factor of 10 times or more. These fat molecules
become evenly dispersed within the liquid milk.

Milk is a hormonal delivery system. With homogenization, milk becomes a
very powerful and efficient way of bypassing normal digestive processes
and delivering steroid and protein hormones to the human body.
Homogenization is technology's way of improving upon nature's
mechanism.

Through homogenization, fat molecules in milk become smaller and become
"capsules" for substances that bypass digestion. Proteins would
normally be digested in the stomach or gut. By homogenizing milk, these
proteins are not broken down and are absorbed into the bloodstream,
intact.

Two Connecticut heart researchers, Oster and Ross, demonstrated that
cow proteins survive digestion. Their heart patients developed
antibodies to bovine proteins after consuming homogenized milk. This
proved that milk proteins are not destroyed by digestion. Hormones in
milk are protected, survive digestion, and exert powerful effects on
the human body.

The scientific community believes that the survival of protein hormones
after ingestion is not possible because of the strength of stomach acid
and enzymatic activity. Oster and Ross pointed a finger of blame at the
homogenization process. They discovered the presence of an enzyme,
bovine xanthene oxidase (XO), which, in theory, should not have
survived digestion. The XO Factor was identified as the element that
destroyed one-third of the cellular material in atrial cells of 300
heart attack victims during a five-year study.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Quoted message said:

"Bovine milk is presently under investigation by this laboratory since
it has been shown that milk antibodies are significantly elevated in
the blood of male patients with heart disease."

Proceedings of the Society for Experimental Biology and Medicine, 163:
1981
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Quoted message said:

"Bovine milk xanthene oxidase (BMXO) may be absorbed and may enter the
cardiovascular system. People with clinical signs of atherosclerosis
have greater quantities of BMXO antibodies. BMXO antibodies are found
in greater quantities in those patients who consume the largest volumes
of homogenized milk and milk products."

The X-O Factor, by Kurt Oster, M.D., and Donald Ross, Ph.D.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Quoted message said:

"Atherosclerotic patients exhibit an immune response to bovine xanthene
oxidase."

American Laboratory, August 1974

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Quoted message said:

"This study conclusively demonstrates that XO from cow's milk does get
into the bloodstream. Seventy-three out of the 94 people tested (of all
ages) had antibodies to XO."

Proc. Soc. Exp. Bio. Med., 160, 1979
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Quoted message said:

Robert Cohen author of: MILK A-Z
(201-871-5871)
Executive Director ([email hidden])
Dairy Education Board
http://www.notmilk.com

"George Lagergren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

XO factor = XANTHENE OXIDASE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Quoted message said:

WHAT IS HOMOGENIZATION?

When milk is passed through a fine filter at pressures equal to 4,000
pounds per square inch, the fat globules (liposomes) are made smaller
(micronized) by a factor of 10 times or more. These fat molecules
become evenly dispersed within the liquid milk.

So far, this is (mostly) correct.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Milk is a hormonal delivery system.

Oops! This fear-mongering statement is false, and irrelevant to the subject
at hand.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

With homogenization, milk becomes a
very powerful and efficient way of bypassing normal digestive processes
and delivering steroid and protein hormones to the human body.

No, it does not.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Homogenization is technology's way of improving upon nature's
mechanism.

Through homogenization, fat molecules in milk become smaller and become
"capsules" for substances that bypass digestion.

No, milk proteins do not become encapsulated in "fat molecules" in milk.
(The fat GLOBULES in homogenized milk are much larger than molecules, and
contain no proteins.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Proteins would
normally be digested in the stomach or gut. By homogenizing milk, these
proteins are not broken down and are absorbed into the bloodstream,
intact.

Protein molecules are much too large to be absorbed across the walls of the
intestinal microvilli. So are the much larger fat globules, of course.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Two Connecticut heart researchers, Oster and Ross, demonstrated that
cow proteins survive digestion.

They're not "heart researchers", they are anti-milk zealots.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Their heart patients developed
antibodies to bovine proteins after consuming homogenized milk. This
proved that milk proteins are not destroyed by digestion.

Even if the claim of antibodies were true, it would prove nothing about
protein digestion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hormones in
milk are protected, survive digestion, and exert powerful effects on
the human body.

And these "powerful effects" are observed only by anti-milk whackos.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The scientific community believes that the survival of protein hormones
after ingestion is not possible because of the strength of stomach acid
and enzymatic activity. Oster and Ross pointed a finger of blame at the
homogenization process. They discovered the presence of an enzyme,
bovine xanthene oxidase (XO), which, in theory, should not have
survived digestion. The XO Factor was identified as the element that
destroyed one-third of the cellular material in atrial cells of 300
heart attack victims during a five-year study.

Heart attacks primarily affect the cardiac ventricles, not the atria. The
cellular destruction that occurs is caused by ischemia (insufficient
oxygen), not by xanthene oxidase. Xanthene oxidase is an enzyme in the liver
that usually is not found in the bloodstream. When it is, it's the result of
liver damage, not milk consumption.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Bovine milk is presently under investigation by this laboratory since
it has been shown that milk antibodies are significantly elevated in
the blood of male patients with heart disease."

Proceedings of the Society for Experimental Biology and Medicine, 163:
1981
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Quoted message said:

"Bovine milk xanthene oxidase (BMXO) may be absorbed and may enter the
cardiovascular system. People with clinical signs of atherosclerosis
have greater quantities of BMXO antibodies. BMXO antibodies are found
in greater quantities in those patients who consume the largest volumes
of homogenized milk and milk products."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The X-O Factor, by Kurt Oster, M.D., and Donald Ross, Ph.D.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Quoted message said:

"Atherosclerotic patients exhibit an immune response to bovine xanthene
oxidase."

American Laboratory, August 1974

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Quoted message said:

"This study conclusively demonstrates that XO from cow's milk does get
into the bloodstream. Seventy-three out of the 94 people tested (of all
ages) had antibodies to XO."

Proc. Soc. Exp. Bio. Med., 160, 1979
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

------

Quoted message said:

Robert Cohen author of: MILK A-Z
(201-871-5871)
Executive Director ([email hidden])
Dairy Education Board
http://www.notmilk.com

1974!? 1979!? That's ancient history!

It doesn't look like Oster and Ross have made a discovery that has held up
in the bright light of science.

--Rich

Rich is largely correct, but ischemia is followed by reperfusion, which
causes a great deal of free radical damage to cellular constituents
(books have been written on this subject, and of course plenty of
scientific papers are avaiable). A spokesmant for the AHA recently
stated in Newsday newspaper that it's only the oxidized cholesterol
that is dangerous, but homogenization makes the fatty acids more
susceptible to free radical degredation, so that is the connection, not
the "XO factor." I eat raw, organic cheese, for example, and I cut the
yellowed (oxidized) sides off of the pasteurized, organic butter sticks
that I buy.

On a different note, I laugh at the people who say that "milk is only
for baby cows," and that one should eat plenty of "dark, leafy green
vegetables." Why? Because something fit for a baby cow has to be
about as non-toxic as you could get, whereas many vegetables have very
strong toxic, enzyme-inhibiting properties, and so should be eaten in
very small amounts or fermented (as Asians do with soy beans - tempeh,
miso, tamari, for example).

You can, of course, cook even raw milk in ways that will oxidize much
of the cholesterol, so you've got to have a basic sense of the
chemistry in order to avoid turned "health food" into "junk food."

montygram said:

On a different note, I laugh at the people who say that "milk is only
for baby cows," and that one should eat plenty of "dark, leafy green
vegetables." Why? Because something fit for a baby cow has to be
about as non-toxic as you could get, whereas many vegetables have very

To see why cow's milk may not be suitable for humans, check out
these web sites:
www.notmilk.com and www.panix.com/~nomilk . Drinking cow's milk
gave me strep throats.

You don't even specifiy exactly what brand and kind of milk you drank.
Do you realize what causes strep throats? The milk could be a
co-factor, presumably, but your claim is ridiculous. I'd advise you
learn some basic biochemistry. You could also read Bruce Fife's book
"Saturated fat may save your life." There are a few minor errors, but
it's good for those who want a fairly easy read, but one with some
scientific substance.

I used to think the same thing. I switched to a vegan diet and stayed
on it for about 14 years, until I lost the ability to digest food,
which almost killed me. Now I eat large amounts of dairy, all organic:
cream cheese, raw cheese, plain whole-milk yogurt, butter, whey powder,
and (rarely) milk or cream. I will not eat anything that has been
homogenized. I haven't been sick for a couple of years now, after
always getting at least a nasty cold twice a year while on the vegan
diet. There are many ways you can depress your "immune system," and I
don't know all the details, but you are describing (mucus, strep,
diabetes) makes absolutely no sense. I've done the research, and
there's just little or nothing to support such claims. On the other
hand, there is real science (meaning you can search pubmed.com and read
actual scientific papers, not what your local chiropractor says) behind
the damage done by free radical mediated processes; physiological
(e.g., Braganza's work on several internal organs), biochemical
(Spiteller and many others) and epidemiological (measuring things like
MDA levels and then making correlations). Fatty acid expert Mary Enig
has noted that any non-whole milk or homogenized product is bad news.
If there is a study that demonstrates, controlling for all other
variables, that raw, organic, whole dairy has unhealthy properties,
please cite it. Otherwise, you are using anecdotes as a substitute for
the scientific method. I run into this all the time. Someone reads
one or two studies, and then think that no other scientist ever did any
experiment that relates to the issue, when in fact there is usually so
much evidence that it's difficult to read it all, even on one subject,
such as the fatty acid known as arachidonic - hundreds, if not
thousands of studies just on this one fatty acid. If you want to make
"expert" claims, then at least read a good portion of the relevant
literature (assuming there is any) and get a grasp on the underlying
mechanisms. Otherwise, you're just "cherry picking," but in the case
of your claims, I doubt that there is anything beyond the usually
nonsense epidemiology, where they claim that the group consuming more
dairy (which isn't even verified) had .07% more diabetes (though the
other group may have died of other things instead). If you want to
rely on this kind of garbage, be my guest, but if you find yourself in
the same place I was in several years ago, that is, eating whole
grains, beans, nuts, and seeds, and losing my ability to digest food,
just don't say you were never warned about it.

montygram said:

I used to think the same thing. I switched to a vegan diet and

stayed

Quoted message said:

on it for about 14 years, until I lost the ability to digest food,
which almost killed me. Now I eat large amounts of dairy, all

organic:

Quoted message said:

cream cheese, raw cheese, plain whole-milk yogurt, butter, whey

powder,

Quoted message said:

and (rarely) milk or cream. I will not eat anything that has been
homogenized. I haven't been sick for a couple of years now, after
always getting at least a nasty cold twice a year while on the vegan
diet. There are many ways you can depress your "immune system," and

I

Quoted message said:

don't know all the details, but you are describing (mucus, strep,
diabetes) makes absolutely no sense. I've done the research, and
there's just little or nothing to support such claims. On the other
hand, there is real science (meaning you can search pubmed.com and

read

Quoted message said:

actual scientific papers, not what your local chiropractor says)

behind

Quoted message said:

the damage done by free radical mediated processes; physiological
(e.g., Braganza's work on several internal organs), biochemical
(Spiteller and many others) and epidemiological (measuring things

like

Quoted message said:

MDA levels and then making correlations). Fatty acid expert Mary

Enig

Quoted message said:

has noted that any non-whole milk or homogenized product is bad news.
If there is a study that demonstrates, controlling for all other
variables, that raw, organic, whole dairy has unhealthy properties,
please cite it. Otherwise, you are using anecdotes as a substitute

for

Quoted message said:

the scientific method. I run into this all the time. Someone reads
one or two studies, and then think that no other scientist ever did

any

Quoted message said:

experiment that relates to the issue, when in fact there is usually

so

Quoted message said:

much evidence that it's difficult to read it all, even on one

subject,

Quoted message said:

such as the fatty acid known as arachidonic - hundreds, if not
thousands of studies just on this one fatty acid. If you want to

make

Quoted message said:

"expert" claims, then at least read a good portion of the relevant
literature (assuming there is any) and get a grasp on the underlying
mechanisms. Otherwise, you're just "cherry picking," but in the case
of your claims, I doubt that there is anything beyond the usually
nonsense epidemiology, where they claim that the group consuming more
dairy (which isn't even verified) had .07% more diabetes (though the
other group may have died of other things instead). If you want to
rely on this kind of garbage, be my guest, but if you find yourself

in

Quoted message said:

the same place I was in several years ago, that is, eating whole
grains, beans, nuts, and seeds, and losing my ability to digest food,
just don't say you were never warned about it.

Good overview. I agree that probiotic dairy is perfectly healthy.
What in your vegan diet do you think compromised your digestion? Do
you think you may have developed allergic reactions following too
limited a selection of foods?

montygram said:

I used to think the same thing. I switched to a vegan diet and

stayed

Quoted message said:

on it for about 14 years, until I lost the ability to digest food,
which almost killed me. Now I eat large amounts of dairy, all

organic:

Quoted message said:

cream cheese, raw cheese, plain whole-milk yogurt, butter, whey

powder,

Quoted message said:

and (rarely) milk or cream. I will not eat anything that has been
homogenized. I haven't been sick for a couple of years now, after
always getting at least a nasty cold twice a year while on the vegan
diet. There are many ways you can depress your "immune system," and

I

Quoted message said:

don't know all the details, but you are describing (mucus, strep,
diabetes) makes absolutely no sense. I've done the research, and
there's just little or nothing to support such claims. On the other
hand, there is real science (meaning you can search pubmed.com and

read

Quoted message said:

actual scientific papers, not what your local chiropractor says)

behind

Quoted message said:

the damage done by free radical mediated processes; physiological
(e.g., Braganza's work on several internal organs), biochemical
(Spiteller and many others) and epidemiological (measuring things

like

Quoted message said:

MDA levels and then making correlations). Fatty acid expert Mary

Enig

Quoted message said:

has noted that any non-whole milk or homogenized product is bad news.
If there is a study that demonstrates, controlling for all other
variables, that raw, organic, whole dairy has unhealthy properties,
please cite it. Otherwise, you are using anecdotes as a substitute

for

Quoted message said:

the scientific method. I run into this all the time. Someone reads
one or two studies, and then think that no other scientist ever did

any

Quoted message said:

experiment that relates to the issue, when in fact there is usually

so

Quoted message said:

much evidence that it's difficult to read it all, even on one

subject,

Quoted message said:

such as the fatty acid known as arachidonic - hundreds, if not
thousands of studies just on this one fatty acid. If you want to

make

Quoted message said:

"expert" claims, then at least read a good portion of the relevant
literature (assuming there is any) and get a grasp on the underlying
mechanisms. Otherwise, you're just "cherry picking," but in the case
of your claims, I doubt that there is anything beyond the usually
nonsense epidemiology, where they claim that the group consuming more
dairy (which isn't even verified) had .07% more diabetes (though the
other group may have died of other things instead). If you want to
rely on this kind of garbage, be my guest, but if you find yourself

in

Quoted message said:

the same place I was in several years ago, that is, eating whole
grains, beans, nuts, and seeds, and losing my ability to digest food,
just don't say you were never warned about it.

Good overview. I agree that probiotic dairy is perfectly healthy.
What in your vegan diet do you think compromised your digestion? Do
you think you may have developed allergic reactions following too
limited a selection of foods?

George Lagergren said:

montygram said:

You don't even specifiy exactly what brand and kind of milk you

drank.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do you realize what causes strep throats? The milk could be a
co-factor, presumably, but your claim is ridiculous. I'd advise

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

learn some basic biochemistry. You could also read Bruce Fife's

book

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Saturated fat may save your life." There are a few minor errors,

but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it's good for those who want a fairly easy read, but one with some
scientific substance.

Other good books are: "The Deadly Poison" and "Milk: A to

Z."

Quoted message said:

See www.notmilk.com .

I used regular grocery store purchased cow's milk (2%

fat).

Quoted message said:

I know strep throats is a germ. But cow's milk consumption

produces

Quoted message said:

heavy mucus and mucus tends to cause germs to stay in the human body.
Thus cow's milk drinkers may get health conditions like ear

infections and

Quoted message said:

strep throats and maybe asthma / lung congestion.

dairy does increase mucus and the proteins and hormones which become
systemic overload the immune system's antibody defense.
normally our immune system keeps germ and virus such as strep, colds,
flu under control but when the antibodies become overwhelmed by
invading whole proteins from dairy then the diseases are able to make
us sick.

Quoted message said:

If the person eliminates dairy (including cow's milk)

products

Quoted message said:

from their diet, those health problems just may dis-appear. I have

not

Quoted message said:

drank any form of cow's milk in the past ten years and I don't get

strep

Quoted message said:

throats anymore.

I have a chiro doc (& nutritionist) friend who has his

young

Quoted message said:

daughter drinking rice milk. He fears she could develop type 1

diabetes

Quoted message said:

from drinking cow's milk.

A google search on ("cow's milk"😉 and (ear infection)

may

Quoted message said:

produce some good hits.

montygram said:

I used to think the same thing. I switched to a vegan diet and stayed
on it for about 14 years, until I lost the ability to digest food,
which almost killed me. Now I eat large amounts of dairy, all organic:
cream cheese, raw cheese, plain whole-milk yogurt, butter, whey powder,
and (rarely) milk or cream. I will not eat anything that has been
homogenized. I haven't been sick for a couple of years now, after

Then you would never buy cow's milk from a grocery store, which
is always homogenized.

Quoted message said:

always getting at least a nasty cold twice a year while on the vegan
diet. There are many ways you can depress your "immune system," and I
don't know all the details, but you are describing (mucus, strep,
diabetes) makes absolutely no sense. I've done the research, and

It may not make sense in the "medical research" world, but it
makes all the sense in the
"common medical sense real world."

Try doing a google search on: ("cow's milk"😉 & diabetes .

Quoted message said:

MDA levels and then making correlations). Fatty acid expert Mary Enig
has noted that any non-whole milk or homogenized product is bad news.

If homogenized cow's milk is bad for human consumption, then
buying cow's milk makes no sense. The great mass of cow's milk drinkers
will buy their cow's milk from their local grocery store. That type of
cow's milk will always be homogenized.

In the ten years since I gave up drinking cow's milk, I have
not come across any "real world information" to support the claim that
drinking cow's milk does the human body good. Thus I will never ever
re-start any drinking of cow's milk again.

In article <[email hidden]>,

George Lagergren said:

montygram said:

always getting at least a nasty cold twice a year while on the vegan
diet. There are many ways you can depress your "immune system," and I
don't know all the details, but you are describing (mucus, strep,
diabetes) makes absolutely no sense. I've done the research, and

It may not make sense in the "medical research" world, but it
makes all the sense in the "common medical sense real world."

That latter term is presumably another way of saying "Fantasyland."

Quoted message said:

Try doing a google search on: ("cow's milk"😉 & diabetes .

Yes -- you'll find a bunch of really bad web sites. If you do the
same on PubMed, things are a bit different.

Quoted message said:

In the ten years since I gave up drinking cow's milk, I have
not come across any "real world information" to support the claim that
drinking cow's milk does the human body good. Thus I will never ever
re-start any drinking of cow's milk again.

You haven't come across that info because you're carefully not
looking. You stick to sites like notmilk that will never, ever
say anything good about milk.

So you can ignore the study that came out within the week about
how dairy users had a 20% lower chance of developing adult-onset
diabetes.

For example.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"I don't need someone to tell me that George W. Bush is a
deceitful, corrupt, clever and destructive man--that's pretty
clear on the face of it." -- Garrison Keillor

David Wright said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

George Lagergren said:

montygram said:

always getting at least a nasty cold twice a year while on the

vegan

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

diet. There are many ways you can depress your "immune system,"

and I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

don't know all the details, but you are describing (mucus, strep,
diabetes) makes absolutely no sense. I've done the research, and

It may not make sense in the "medical research" world,

but it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

makes all the sense in the "common medical sense real world."

That latter term is presumably another way of saying "Fantasyland."

Quoted message said:

Try doing a google search on: ("cow's milk"😉 &

diabetes .

Quoted message said:

Yes -- you'll find a bunch of really bad web sites. If you do the
same on PubMed, things are a bit different.

Quoted message said:

In the ten years since I gave up drinking cow's milk, I

have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not come across any "real world information" to support the claim

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

drinking cow's milk does the human body good. Thus I will never

ever

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

re-start any drinking of cow's milk again.

You haven't come across that info because you're carefully not
looking. You stick to sites like notmilk that will never, ever
say anything good about milk.

So you can ignore the study that came out within the week about
how dairy users had a 20% lower chance of developing adult-onset
diabetes.

But we don't know dairy was protective in these men, or whether an
associated lifestyle factor or other dietary effect was responsible.
In many food-based studies, dietary displacement can occur and become a
confounding factor, introducing a bias in favor of the studied food.
Frank Hu made it clear that "it is too soon to tell people at high risk
for type 2 diabetes to eat more dairy." He also stated, "I don't think
it is a good idea at this point to recommend high dairy consumption as
a public health strategy to prevent diabetes." And, "...the public
health implications are not yet clear." By contrast, quite a few
large, excellent studies have shown higher rates of heart disease in
those consuming the most dairy, which in terms of cholesterol theory
(one of many, though not the one I find most convincing) is well
corroborated.

PeterB

In article <[email hidden]>,

PeterB said:

David Wright said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

George Lagergren said:

"montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote:

> always getting at least a nasty cold twice a year while on the

vegan

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> diet. There are many ways you can depress your "immune system,"

and I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> don't know all the details, but you are describing (mucus, strep,
> diabetes) makes absolutely no sense. I've done the research, and

It may not make sense in the "medical research" world,

but it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

makes all the sense in the "common medical sense real world."

That latter term is presumably another way of saying "Fantasyland."

Quoted message said:

Try doing a google search on: ("cow's milk"😉 &

diabetes .

Quoted message said:

Yes -- you'll find a bunch of really bad web sites. If you do the
same on PubMed, things are a bit different.

Quoted message said:

In the ten years since I gave up drinking cow's milk, I

have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not come across any "real world information" to support the claim

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

drinking cow's milk does the human body good. Thus I will never

ever

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

re-start any drinking of cow's milk again.

You haven't come across that info because you're carefully not
looking. You stick to sites like notmilk that will never, ever
say anything good about milk.

So you can ignore the study that came out within the week about
how dairy users had a 20% lower chance of developing adult-onset
diabetes.

But we don't know dairy was protective in these men, or whether an
associated lifestyle factor or other dietary effect was responsible.

I have to ask -- if the study had shown a 20% *increase* in diabetes
in milk drinkers, would you be tossing up all these concerns? I
rather doubt it.

Quoted message said:

In many food-based studies, dietary displacement can occur and become a
confounding factor, introducing a bias in favor of the studied food.
Frank Hu made it clear that "it is too soon to tell people at high risk
for type 2 diabetes to eat more dairy." He also stated, "I don't think
it is a good idea at this point to recommend high dairy consumption as
a public health strategy to prevent diabetes." And, "...the public
health implications are not yet clear." By contrast, quite a few
large, excellent studies have shown higher rates of heart disease in
those consuming the most dairy, which in terms of cholesterol theory
(one of many, though not the one I find most convincing) is well
corroborated.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"I don't need someone to tell me that George W. Bush is a
deceitful, corrupt, clever and destructive man--that's pretty
clear on the face of it." -- Garrison Keillor

David Wright said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

PeterB said:

David Wright said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
George Lagergren <[email hidden]> wrote:
>"montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> always getting at least a nasty cold twice a year while on the

vegan

Quoted message said:

>> diet. There are many ways you can depress your "immune

system,"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and I

Quoted message said:

>> don't know all the details, but you are describing (mucus,

strep,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> diabetes) makes absolutely no sense. I've done the research,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> It may not make sense in the "medical research" world,

but it

Quoted message said:

>makes all the sense in the "common medical sense real world."

That latter term is presumably another way of saying

"Fantasyland."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Try doing a google search on: ("cow's milk"😉 &

diabetes .

Quoted message said:

Yes -- you'll find a bunch of really bad web sites. If you do the
same on PubMed, things are a bit different.

> In the ten years since I gave up drinking cow's

milk, I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have

Quoted message said:

>not come across any "real world information" to support the claim

that

Quoted message said:

>drinking cow's milk does the human body good. Thus I will never

ever

Quoted message said:

>re-start any drinking of cow's milk again.

You haven't come across that info because you're carefully not
looking. You stick to sites like notmilk that will never, ever
say anything good about milk.

So you can ignore the study that came out within the week about
how dairy users had a 20% lower chance of developing adult-onset
diabetes.

But we don't know dairy was protective in these men, or whether an
associated lifestyle factor or other dietary effect was responsible.

I have to ask -- if the study had shown a 20% *increase* in diabetes
in milk drinkers, would you be tossing up all these concerns? I
rather doubt it.

If someone makes an unfounded health claim and the data doesn't support
it, I'll gladly play devil's advocate. The difference in my approach
and your approach is that I use the scientific method and your team
uses HappyMutt.

PeterB

In article <[email hidden]>,

PeterB said:

David Wright said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

PeterB said:

David Wright wrote:
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> George Lagergren <[email hidden]> wrote:
> >"montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> >
> >> always getting at least a nasty cold twice a year while on the
vegan
> >> diet. There are many ways you can depress your "immune

system,"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and I
> >> don't know all the details, but you are describing (mucus,

strep,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> diabetes) makes absolutely no sense. I've done the research,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >
> > It may not make sense in the "medical research" world,
but it
> >makes all the sense in the "common medical sense real world."
>
> That latter term is presumably another way of saying

"Fantasyland."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> > Try doing a google search on: ("cow's milk"😉 &
diabetes .
>
> Yes -- you'll find a bunch of really bad web sites. If you do the
> same on PubMed, things are a bit different.
>
> > In the ten years since I gave up drinking cow's

milk, I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have
> >not come across any "real world information" to support the claim
that
> >drinking cow's milk does the human body good. Thus I will never
ever
> >re-start any drinking of cow's milk again.
>
> You haven't come across that info because you're carefully not
> looking. You stick to sites like notmilk that will never, ever
> say anything good about milk.
>
> So you can ignore the study that came out within the week about
> how dairy users had a 20% lower chance of developing adult-onset
> diabetes.

But we don't know dairy was protective in these men, or whether an
associated lifestyle factor or other dietary effect was responsible.

I have to ask -- if the study had shown a 20% *increase* in diabetes
in milk drinkers, would you be tossing up all these concerns? I
rather doubt it.

If someone makes an unfounded health claim and the data doesn't support
it, I'll gladly play devil's advocate. The difference in my approach
and your approach is that I use the scientific method and your team
uses HappyMutt.

And your team uses Gastaldo, Scudamore, and Jan Drew. Very scientific
indeed.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"I don't need someone to tell me that George W. Bush is a
deceitful, corrupt, clever and destructive man--that's pretty
clear on the face of it." -- Garrison Keillor

David Wright said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

PeterB said:

David Wright said:

In article

<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>David Wright wrote:
>> In article

<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> George Lagergren <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> >"montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> always getting at least a nasty cold twice a year while on

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>vegan
>> >> diet. There are many ways you can depress your "immune

system,"

Quoted message said:

>and I
>> >> don't know all the details, but you are describing (mucus,

strep,

Quoted message said:

>> >> diabetes) makes absolutely no sense. I've done the

research,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

>> >
>> > It may not make sense in the "medical research"

world,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>but it
>> >makes all the sense in the "common medical sense real world."
>>
>> That latter term is presumably another way of saying

"Fantasyland."

Quoted message said:

>>
>> > Try doing a google search on: ("cow's milk"😉 &
>diabetes .
>>
>> Yes -- you'll find a bunch of really bad web sites. If you do

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> same on PubMed, things are a bit different.
>>
>> > In the ten years since I gave up drinking cow's

milk, I

Quoted message said:

>have
>> >not come across any "real world information" to support the

claim

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>that
>> >drinking cow's milk does the human body good. Thus I will

never

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>ever
>> >re-start any drinking of cow's milk again.
>>
>> You haven't come across that info because you're carefully not
>> looking. You stick to sites like notmilk that will never, ever
>> say anything good about milk.
>>
>> So you can ignore the study that came out within the week about
>> how dairy users had a 20% lower chance of developing

adult-onset

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> diabetes.
>
>But we don't know dairy was protective in these men, or whether

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>associated lifestyle factor or other dietary effect was

responsible.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have to ask -- if the study had shown a 20% *increase* in

diabetes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in milk drinkers, would you be tossing up all these concerns? I
rather doubt it.

If someone makes an unfounded health claim and the data doesn't

support

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it, I'll gladly play devil's advocate. The difference in my

approach

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and your approach is that I use the scientific method and your team
uses HappyMutt.

And your team uses Gastaldo, Scudamore, and Jan Drew. Very

scientific

Quoted message said:

indeed.

Like the Pharma Bloggers, we prefer a multi-faceted approach.

In article <[email hidden]>,

PeterB said:

David Wright said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

PeterB said:

David Wright wrote:
> In article

<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:
> >
> >David Wright wrote:
> >> In article

<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> George Lagergren <[email hidden]> wrote:
> >> >"montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> always getting at least a nasty cold twice a year while on

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >vegan
> >> >> diet. There are many ways you can depress your "immune
system,"
> >and I
> >> >> don't know all the details, but you are describing (mucus,
strep,
> >> >> diabetes) makes absolutely no sense. I've done the

research,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and
> >> >
> >> > It may not make sense in the "medical research"

world,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >but it
> >> >makes all the sense in the "common medical sense real world."
> >>
> >> That latter term is presumably another way of saying
"Fantasyland."
> >>
> >> > Try doing a google search on: ("cow's milk"😉 &
> >diabetes .
> >>
> >> Yes -- you'll find a bunch of really bad web sites. If you do

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> same on PubMed, things are a bit different.
> >>
> >> > In the ten years since I gave up drinking cow's
milk, I
> >have
> >> >not come across any "real world information" to support the

claim

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >that
> >> >drinking cow's milk does the human body good. Thus I will

never

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >ever
> >> >re-start any drinking of cow's milk again.
> >>
> >> You haven't come across that info because you're carefully not
> >> looking. You stick to sites like notmilk that will never, ever
> >> say anything good about milk.
> >>
> >> So you can ignore the study that came out within the week about
> >> how dairy users had a 20% lower chance of developing

adult-onset

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> diabetes.
> >
> >But we don't know dairy was protective in these men, or whether

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >associated lifestyle factor or other dietary effect was

responsible.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> I have to ask -- if the study had shown a 20% *increase* in

diabetes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> in milk drinkers, would you be tossing up all these concerns? I
> rather doubt it.

If someone makes an unfounded health claim and the data doesn't

support

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it, I'll gladly play devil's advocate. The difference in my

approach

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and your approach is that I use the scientific method and your team
uses HappyMutt.

And your team uses Gastaldo, Scudamore, and Jan Drew. Very
scientific indeed.

Like the Pharma Bloggers, we prefer a multi-faceted approach.

Let me see, now. "Pharma Blogger" is a term you use to describe
anyone who uses the words "strawman argument" against you.

Now, a couple of postings back, you basically tell me that "my team"
uses HD and you use science. So you're improperly tying me to another
poster and then arguing against that.

Now, what sort of argument is that, Scarecrow?

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"I don't need someone to tell me that George W. Bush is a
deceitful, corrupt, clever and destructive man--that's pretty
clear on the face of it." -- Garrison Keillor

David Wright said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

PeterB said:

David Wright said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>David Wright wrote:
>> In article

<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

>> PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> >
>> >David Wright wrote:
>> >> In article

<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

>> >> George Lagergren <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> >> >"montygram" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> always getting at least a nasty cold twice a year while on

the

Quoted message said:

>> >vegan
>> >> >> diet. There are many ways you can depress your "immune
>system,"
>> >and I
>> >> >> don't know all the details, but you are describing (mucus,
>strep,
>> >> >> diabetes) makes absolutely no sense. I've done the

research,

Quoted message said:

>and
>> >> >
>> >> > It may not make sense in the "medical research"

world,

Quoted message said:

>> >but it
>> >> >makes all the sense in the "common medical sense real world."
>> >>
>> >> That latter term is presumably another way of saying
>"Fantasyland."
>> >>
>> >> > Try doing a google search on: ("cow's milk"😉 &
>> >diabetes .
>> >>
>> >> Yes -- you'll find a bunch of really bad web sites. If you do

the

Quoted message said:

>> >> same on PubMed, things are a bit different.
>> >>
>> >> > In the ten years since I gave up drinking cow's
>milk, I
>> >have
>> >> >not come across any "real world information" to support the

claim

Quoted message said:

>> >that
>> >> >drinking cow's milk does the human body good. Thus I will

never

Quoted message said:

>> >ever
>> >> >re-start any drinking of cow's milk again.
>> >>
>> >> You haven't come across that info because you're carefully not
>> >> looking. You stick to sites like notmilk that will never, ever
>> >> say anything good about milk.
>> >>
>> >> So you can ignore the study that came out within the week about
>> >> how dairy users had a 20% lower chance of developing

adult-onset

Quoted message said:

>> >> diabetes.
>> >
>> >But we don't know dairy was protective in these men, or whether

an

Quoted message said:

>> >associated lifestyle factor or other dietary effect was

responsible.

Quoted message said:

>>
>> I have to ask -- if the study had shown a 20% *increase* in

diabetes

Quoted message said:

>> in milk drinkers, would you be tossing up all these concerns? I
>> rather doubt it.
>
>If someone makes an unfounded health claim and the data doesn't

support

Quoted message said:

>it, I'll gladly play devil's advocate. The difference in my

approach

Quoted message said:

>and your approach is that I use the scientific method and your team
>uses HappyMutt.

And your team uses Gastaldo, Scudamore, and Jan Drew. Very
scientific indeed.

Like the Pharma Bloggers, we prefer a multi-faceted approach.

Let me see, now. "Pharma Blogger" is a term you use to describe
anyone who uses the words "strawman argument" against you.

So far, all the trademarks of industry bloggers have been combined with
use of that term.

Quoted message said:

Now, a couple of postings back, you basically tell me that "my team"
uses HD and you use science. So you're improperly tying me to another
poster and then arguing against that.

I argue against the points you make I disagree with. I observe the
behaviour and consistency of bloggers. What's "improper?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

PeterB said:

David Wright said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

PeterB said:

David Wright wrote:
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:
> >
> >David Wright wrote:
> >> In article
<[email hidden]>,
> >>
> >> I have to ask -- if the study had shown a 20% *increase* in
> >> diabetes in milk drinkers, would you be tossing up all these
> >> concerns? I rather doubt it.
> >
> >If someone makes an unfounded health claim and the data doesn't
> >support it, I'll gladly play devil's advocate. The difference
> >in my approach and your approach is that I use the scientific
> >method and your team uses HappyMutt.
>
> And your team uses Gastaldo, Scudamore, and Jan Drew. Very
> scientific indeed.

Like the Pharma Bloggers, we prefer a multi-faceted approach.

Let me see, now. "Pharma Blogger" is a term you use to describe
anyone who uses the words "strawman argument" against you.

So far, all the trademarks of industry bloggers have been combined with
use of that term.

Of course, you don't have any actual evidence that any of them are, in
fact, somehow being funded by the pharm companies; you merely find it
comforting to think so. (Feel free to supply actual evidence.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now, a couple of postings back, you basically tell me that "my team"
uses HD and you use science. So you're improperly tying me to another
poster and then arguing against that.

I argue against the points you make I disagree with. I observe the
behaviour and consistency of bloggers. What's "improper?"

You're basically claiming that I'm somehow "in league" with HD, and
that therefore you can argue against me on that basis. In court, that
would be called "facts not in evidence."

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"I don't need someone to tell me that George W. Bush is a
deceitful, corrupt, clever and destructive man--that's pretty
clear on the face of it." -- Garrison Keillor