The two best directors in the sport

Kurgan Gringioni says...

Quoted message said:

Which leads us to Jan Ullrich. One of the reasons T-Mobile can't ever
beat Armstrong, IMO, is their leader on the bike doesn't set a hard
enough example, compounding the weak leadership of Godefroot. The
result? Weak team unity, unfocused preparation, disastrous tactics.
When Bruyneel/Armstrong is on its game, Ullrich doesn't stand a chance.
The only year he truly threatened was 2003, the year Armstrong's
personal life was in turmoil.

(Notice the obvious omission of name-calling)

Almost sounds like you're giving CSC a break here. By comparison, shouldn't
Basso have shown more leadership this year? Maybe someone at CSC should have
tried to get him to pick between the Giro and the Tour? Or were they naive
enough to think he could win both? Then again, had he not gotten sick, he
certainly had a good shot at the Giro. Maybe if that happened, he would have
been more willing to hang it out in the Tour?

I'm actually up on T-Mob after the last week. I don't think they have their
[censored] together in that I didn't see the best coordination of their key resources.
However, they did show conviction and passion. Personally, I'd rather see a
rider take a calculated risk (occasionally) and if they blow up from time to
time, it's not the end of the world. But to hang back, like it appeared to some
that Basso did in stage 15 seems kinda lame to me. Sure, it's possible that CSC
has something up their sleeve that will dethrone the king in the next few days,
but I seriously doubt it.

Henry, I wish you'd post like that all the time. Actually displays your
intelligence for a change.

Riis didn't change Telekom. It was just an embarassment of richs on the
team that the inability of poor old Walter to control all of the egos.

Likewise, a great deal of Bruyneel's 'intelligent management' has to do
with the absolute demands of Lance Armstrong who knew what he wanted
and GOT the people who would take care of it for him.

Expect to see Lance being discussed on Wall Street in the future. He's
the one that has been the driving force behind his own wins.

Riis is probably a little too flackey himself. He's a smart manager but
he doesn't force a close enough focus on his team. This year has been
it's best and I expect in the future it will be better but that will be
because Basso is growing up and taking on a lot of the ideas and focus
of Lance.

All in my own humble opinion of course.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

are Bjarne Riis and Johan Bruyneel.

Not many people will argue about that. But what's more interesting,
look at their racing careers and what happened to their former teams
after they retired.

Riis has his greatest success at Telekom (now T-Mobile). Telekom won
the TdF in 1996 with Riis and the next year w/ Ullrich. Since Riis
left? It's been a team of great talent and amazing underachievement. In
the meantime, look at what Riis has done with CSC.

Bruyneel raced for ONCE under Manolo "Venga Venga Venga" Saiz.
Incredible success they had - winning multiple Vueltas, Classics,
having the UCI #1 in Jalabert, just kicking ass all the way around,
save not being able to dethrone Indurain in the TdF. Bruyneel retired
and went onto direct Lance Armstrong to 6 consecutive TdF victories
along with 2 Vueltas and 1 Giro by other riders. What has Saiz done in
the meantime? His achievements pale by comparison to height of his
successes w/ ONCE.

The contrast of the respective records of Saiz and Godefroot before and
after Bruyneel and Riis left them is telling. I don't believe it's been
discussed here yet. Leadership skills - they matter on the bike as well
as in management.

Which leads us to Jan Ullrich. One of the reasons T-Mobile can't ever
beat Armstrong, IMO, is their leader on the bike doesn't set a hard
enough example, compounding the weak leadership of Godefroot. The
result? Weak team unity, unfocused preparation, disastrous tactics.
When Bruyneel/Armstrong is on its game, Ullrich doesn't stand a chance.
The only year he truly threatened was 2003, the year Armstrong's
personal life was in turmoil.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

You make several compelling points here, but to me, the real power of a
team is in a strong lead RIDER. CSC has had a lot of fun noodling
around and winning odd races in impressive ways, but since they picked
up Basso - a courageous and brilliant team leader - they've been on a
totally new level. Next year, if they let Lombardi retire and replace
him with someone like Marzio Bruseghin, they'll be unstoppable.

Meanwhile, Motorola/USPS/Discovery was built around Lance. They have
lived and died with him, and once he's gone the rest of the guys will be
lost sheep...

sonarrat a écrit :

Quoted message said:

Meanwhile, Motorola/USPS/Discovery was built around Lance. They have
lived and died with him, and once he's gone the rest of the guys will be
lost sheep...

They won the Giro this year without him, which isn't too bad for lost
sheep.

-ilan

Quoted message said:

sonarrat a écrit :

Quoted message said:

Meanwhile, Motorola/USPS/Discovery was built around Lance. They have
lived and died with him, and once he's gone the rest of the guys will be
lost sheep...

They won the Giro this year without him, which isn't too bad for lost
sheep.

-ilan

Savoldelli is an exception. Like I said before, Discovery's
contribution to his Giro win consisted of bussing him to the start line
with a bicycle.

sonarrat said:

You make several compelling points here, but to me, the real power of a
team is in a strong lead RIDER. CSC has had a lot of fun noodling
around and winning odd races in impressive ways, but since they picked
up Basso - a courageous and brilliant team leader - they've been on a
totally new level.

Basso wasn't exactly a _leader_ when he joined CSC. Jalabert was...

Quoted message said:

Next year, if they let Lombardi retire and replace
him with someone like Marzio Bruseghin, they'll be unstoppable.

then they won't be unstopable, one of Basso's prime claims in his
renegotiations with Riis was that Lombardi gets a news contract as
well. Lombardi has been a major success in CSC's tour squad this year.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

PowerMac G5: 1.6GHz, 1.25GB RAM, 300+300GB SATA, 8xDVD+/-RW, Bluetooth
mus + tastatur, R9600PRO, iSight, eyeTV200 & LaCie Photon18Vision TFT

Just for the record about Riis:

Having been star-lieutenant for Laurent Fignon for some years, he went to
the Ariostea team 1992 (together with Rolf Sørensen) under Giancarlo
Ferretti.
1993 In the TdF he won the stage to Châlon sur Marne - and got the polka dot
jersey for a single day. - He ended 5th i the GC.
1994 he got sick during the first week of the Tour but later had a
spectacular stage-victory riding less than 1 min. ahead of a the chasing
peloton for almost 30 km.
1995 - 3rd place in the GC under Indurain and Zülle
1996 - Winner of the TdF
1997 - 7th place in GC (Ullrich's year)

As a team manager he directed the perfect sortie for Laurent Jalabert and he
managed the rise of Tyler Hamilton (untill TH chose to be the man on the
Phonak squad).
It looks like the riders in the CSC stable are quite happy to be there.
Julich use any occasion to praise Riis, as does Jens Voigt, and if You get
the chance, go and see the movie/documentary 'Overcoming' and judge for
yourselves, if you there meet a team with a future.

Basso choose today to prolong his contract with Riis until 2009. I guess he
could have obtained a larger salary on another team, but unlike Ullrich and
Hamilton he evidently trust Bjarne Riis and the CSC team to be the best way
to win the Tour de France.

Thomas Lund

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

are Bjarne Riis and Johan Bruyneel.

Not many people will argue about that. But what's more interesting,
look at their racing careers and what happened to their former teams
after they retired.

Riis has his greatest success at Telekom (now T-Mobile). Telekom won
the TdF in 1996 with Riis and the next year w/ Ullrich. Since Riis
left? It's been a team of great talent and amazing underachievement. In
the meantime, look at what Riis has done with CSC.

Bruyneel raced for ONCE under Manolo "Venga Venga Venga" Saiz.
Incredible success they had - winning multiple Vueltas, Classics,
having the UCI #1 in Jalabert, just kicking ass all the way around,
save not being able to dethrone Indurain in the TdF. Bruyneel retired
and went onto direct Lance Armstrong to 6 consecutive TdF victories
along with 2 Vueltas and 1 Giro by other riders. What has Saiz done in
the meantime? His achievements pale by comparison to height of his
successes w/ ONCE.

The contrast of the respective records of Saiz and Godefroot before and
after Bruyneel and Riis left them is telling. I don't believe it's been
discussed here yet. Leadership skills - they matter on the bike as well
as in management.

Which leads us to Jan Ullrich. One of the reasons T-Mobile can't ever
beat Armstrong, IMO, is their leader on the bike doesn't set a hard
enough example, compounding the weak leadership of Godefroot. The
result? Weak team unity, unfocused preparation, disastrous tactics.
When Bruyneel/Armstrong is on its game, Ullrich doesn't stand a chance.
The only year he truly threatened was 2003, the year Armstrong's
personal life was in turmoil.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

For sure Riis has major leadership qualities, both when he was a rider
on Telekom and then as a director. Bruyneel I don't think was quite
as much like that at ONCE. Thing about ONCE is that Saiz was a better
than average director (probably not as good as Riis or Bruyneel now)
with some exceptional riders. Jalabert in particular.

I don't think Bruyneel leaving ONCE precipitated their decline. Rather
the loss of Jalabert plus Saiz being perhaps a little behind in
general compared to the other two directors.

JT

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Thomas Lund said:

Just for the record about Riis:

Quoted message said:

Having been star-lieutenant for Laurent Fignon for some years, he went to
the Ariostea team 1992 (together with Rolf S?rensen) under Giancarlo
Ferretti.
1993 In the TdF he won the stage to Ch?lon sur Marne - and got the polka dot
jersey for a single day. - He ended 5th i the GC.
1994 he got sick during the first week of the Tour but later had a
spectacular stage-victory riding less than 1 min. ahead of a the chasing
peloton for almost 30 km.

It was the other day arround, he was weak and got sick the day after
(the day the climbed Mont Ventoux and E.Poli won) his exelent win in Albi.
A few days later he sacrificed himself as he had often done for
Fignon, as he dragged his teammate P.Ugrumov and a tiny Columbian
accross 3 mountains in a great attack on Indurain.

Quoted message said:

1995 - 3rd place in the GC under Indurain and Z?lle

And [censored] at Motorola and Le Blanc for annuling the race the day
after Casatelli's death - the day he _would_ have burried at least
A.Zuelle and perhaps M.Indurain.

(thomas gider du ikke enten svare under det citerede, og/eller klippe
det helt bort?)

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

PowerMac G5: 1.6GHz, 1.25GB RAM, 300+300GB SATA, 8xDVD+/-RW, Bluetooth
mus + tastatur, R9600PRO, iSight, eyeTV200 & LaCie Photon18Vision TFT

sonarrat said:

Quoted message said:

sonarrat a écrit :

Quoted message said:

Meanwhile, Motorola/USPS/Discovery was built around Lance. They have
lived and died with him, and once he's gone the rest of the guys will be
lost sheep...

They won the Giro this year without him, which isn't too bad for lost
sheep.

-ilan

Savoldelli is an exception. Like I said before, Discovery's
contribution to his Giro win consisted of bussing him to the start line
with a bicycle.

Dumbass -

You've got your head up your ass.

First of all, Bruyneel bought Savoldelli some help (that's part of the
game) when Danielson faltered and secondly, Bruyneel directed a win in
the Vuelta too, with Heras in 2003.

Bruyneel knows what he's doing. His record speaks for itself. The other
team directors wish they had a record like his. It's not just luck,
otherwise why aren't you and I doing it? Because we can't.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

sonarrat said:

Quoted message said:

sonarrat a écrit :

>Meanwhile, Motorola/USPS/Discovery was built around Lance. They have
>lived and died with him, and once he's gone the rest of the guys will be
>lost sheep...

They won the Giro this year without him, which isn't too bad for lost
sheep.

-ilan

Savoldelli is an exception. Like I said before, Discovery's
contribution to his Giro win consisted of bussing him to the start line
with a bicycle.

Dumbass -

You've got your head up your ass.

First of all, Bruyneel bought Savoldelli some help (that's part of the
game) when Danielson faltered and secondly, Bruyneel directed a win in
the Vuelta too, with Heras in 2003.

Bruyneel knows what he's doing. His record speaks for itself. The other
team directors wish they had a record like his. It's not just luck,
otherwise why aren't you and I doing it? Because we can't.

I'm not saying Bruyneel isn't a fine directeur sportif. I'm saying that
without Lance, Roberto or Paolo, he wouldn't seem as impressive. Look
at the '04 Vuelta for a demonstration or, hell, any Paris-Roubaix. Even
dumb old Manolo Saiz directed Heras to a Vuelta win last year, in case
you had forgotten.

-Sonarrat.

sonarrat said:

Quoted message said:

Dumbass -

You've got your head up your ass.

First of all, Bruyneel bought Savoldelli some help (that's part of the
game) when Danielson faltered and secondly, Bruyneel directed a win in
the Vuelta too, with Heras in 2003.

Bruyneel knows what he's doing. His record speaks for itself. The other
team directors wish they had a record like his. It's not just luck,
otherwise why aren't you and I doing it? Because we can't.

I'm not saying Bruyneel isn't a fine directeur sportif. I'm saying that
without Lance, Roberto or Paolo, he wouldn't seem as impressive. Look
at the '04 Vuelta for a demonstration or, hell, any Paris-Roubaix.

Dumbass -

It's the director who shapes his team, that includes the decisions on
what riders to hire.

As for Paris-Roubaix, look at what happens there. "The Wizard of
Paris-Roubaix", Lefevere, dominates that race. He's set up a system
that works - the riders have turned over and he keeps dominating it,
winning it with 5 different riders (Museeuw, Tafi, Ballerini, Knaven,
Boonen) in the last decade. Over the long run, it's not luck.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Morten Reippuert Knudsen said:

sonarrat said:

You make several compelling points here, but to me, the real power of a
team is in a strong lead RIDER. CSC has had a lot of fun noodling
around and winning odd races in impressive ways, but since they picked
up Basso - a courageous and brilliant team leader - they've been on a
totally new level.

Basso wasn't exactly a _leader_ when he joined CSC. Jalabert was...

Totally wrong - JaJa retired after 2002, and Basso first signed on for
the 2004 season. Before that they had Hamilton, but he was never given
the status of unequivocal leader because they rightly saw that they
couldn't place that kind of faith in him and, at best, called him a
co-leader with Sastre.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Next year, if they let Lombardi retire and replace
him with someone like Marzio Bruseghin, they'll be unstoppable.

then they won't be unstopable, one of Basso's prime claims in his
renegotiations with Riis was that Lombardi gets a news contract as
well. Lombardi has been a major success in CSC's tour squad this year.

They must value him for reasons besides what can be seen on the tube, then.

-Sonarrat.

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:43:54 -0700, sonarrat <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

You make several compelling points here, but to me, the real power of a
team is in a strong lead RIDER. CSC has had a lot of fun noodling
around and winning odd races in impressive ways, but since they picked
up Basso - a courageous and brilliant team leader - they've been on a
totally new level. Next year, if they let Lombardi retire and replace
him with someone like Marzio Bruseghin, they'll be unstoppable.

Meanwhile, Motorola/USPS/Discovery was built around Lance. They have
lived and died with him, and once he's gone the rest of the guys will be
lost sheep...

wrong

You must know were the wasp nest are on the course.

On the topic of Bruyneel, and Riis they are the best because they come
from the modern era and yes in my opinion they are the best right now.

RVD

I swear to god someone could start a thread titled "Farts smell bad"
and there would be 10 posts disagreeing.

David Ferguson said:

I swear to god someone could start a thread titled "Farts smell bad"
and there would be 10 posts disagreeing.

"Did you ever notice that your own farts smell good??"
--George Carlin

On 7/18/05 4:37 PM, in article [email hidden],

David Ferguson said:

I swear to god someone could start a thread titled "Farts smell bad"
and there would be 10 posts disagreeing.

http://www.holylemon.com/DriveByFarting.html

On 07/18/2005 02:30 PM, in article
[email hidden], "Kurgan Gringioni"

Quoted message said:

are Bjarne Riis and Johan Bruyneel.

Not many people will argue about that. But what's more interesting,
look at their racing careers and what happened to their former teams
after they retired.

Riis has his greatest success at Telekom (now T-Mobile). Telekom won
the TdF in 1996 with Riis and the next year w/ Ullrich. Since Riis
left? It's been a team of great talent and amazing underachievement. In
the meantime, look at what Riis has done with CSC.

Bruyneel raced for ONCE under Manolo "Venga Venga Venga" Saiz.
Incredible success they had - winning multiple Vueltas, Classics,
having the UCI #1 in Jalabert, just kicking ass all the way around,
save not being able to dethrone Indurain in the TdF. Bruyneel retired
and went onto direct Lance Armstrong to 6 consecutive TdF victories
along with 2 Vueltas and 1 Giro by other riders. What has Saiz done in
the meantime? His achievements pale by comparison to height of his
successes w/ ONCE.

The contrast of the respective records of Saiz and Godefroot before and
after Bruyneel and Riis left them is telling. I don't believe it's been
discussed here yet. Leadership skills - they matter on the bike as well
as in management.

Which leads us to Jan Ullrich. One of the reasons T-Mobile can't ever
beat Armstrong, IMO, is their leader on the bike doesn't set a hard
enough example, compounding the weak leadership of Godefroot. The
result? Weak team unity, unfocused preparation, disastrous tactics.
When Bruyneel/Armstrong is on its game, Ullrich doesn't stand a chance.
The only year he truly threatened was 2003, the year Armstrong's
personal life was in turmoil.

And the year that Ullrich wasn't riding for Godefroot at Deutsche Telekom.

--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
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ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
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