the sub 17 journey

Donovan - fascinating stuff!

Big congrats on the sub-17.

Do you plan to stay on this training regimen indefinitely?
What's your next major goal?

Anthony.

Anthony said:

Donovan - fascinating stuff!

Big congrats on the sub-17.

Thanks!

Quoted message said:

Do you plan to stay on this training regimen indefinitely?

I have a 10k race next week, where I will be trying to match my 5k performance
- so looking for 35-low (sub 35 would be really nice, but I'd be pleased with
anything under 35:30)

After that, I'd like to take it easy for a couple of weeks at least, and then
get ready for what's next ...

Quoted message said:

What's your next major goal?

Indoor track (mile/3k). So the buildup will be similar, though around early
December, I may throw in some more specific training.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Nice work D., but I seemed to have missed were you complimented &
enhanced all this work with some form of sports psychology? No room
for "mumbo jumbo"? Pity, you might have heightened your performance by
10%.

Oh look here, our running club is having a "mumbo jumbo" lecture on
Visualization Techniques on Tuesday with Ethan Gologor, Ph.D., NYRR
medical team member, New York State licensed psychologist, professor
and chair of the psychology department at Medgar Evers College will be
the featured speaker. Topics will include becoming a better
“visualizer” and techniques to improve performance.

By the way, I've already copywritten this excellent posting of
yours...for my own... and will be seeking to have it published in
Runner's World. Thanks!

Quoted message said:

Nice work D., but I seemed to have missed were you complimented &
enhanced all this work with some form of sports psychology? No room

Mostly this just boiled down to being calm and relaxed, both physically and
mentallly, the day of the race. As I've said, I don't think this makes a
substantial measurable impact, but it may help prevent a meltdown if things
don't go well or if you start slowing down.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

crazy lance said:

Pity, you might have heightened your performance by 10%.

Ya figure? Ten percent?

So DR can claim to have run a mumbo-jumbo-adjusted 15:09?

Quoted message said:

Topics will include becoming a better "visualizer" and
techniques to improve performance.

Yeah, he's gonna say "visualize your ass getting out the door on a
weekly long run, and visualize making your easy days easy and your hard
days truly hard." I know this - I can visualize it!

Charlie Pendejo said:

crazy lance said:

Pity, you might have heightened your performance by 10%.

Ya figure? Ten percent?

So DR can claim to have run a mumbo-jumbo-adjusted 15:09?

Quoted message said:

Topics will include becoming a better "visualizer" and
techniques to improve performance.

Yeah, he's gonna say "visualize your ass getting out the door on a
weekly long run, and visualize making your easy days easy and your hard
days truly hard." I know this - I can visualize it!

bwahahahahahaha ...

--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Earlier this year, I took a trip to Australia, and during my time there, I met
up with an old friend who was a fast runner some time back (sub 31:30 for 10k)
also an exercise physiologist. We discussed running, and he pointed out to me
that I really should be running quite a bit faster than I ran during my
college days (my college training was very light).

[]

Quoted message said:

The overall experience was very good -- they had the NJIT cross team manning
the turns and waterstops, and these guys were a great source of support. Felt
I should spread it around a bit and did a cooldown run on the course to offer
some encouragement to the other runners. Then they had an abundant supply of
refreshments. Clocks at every mile, flat and fast course. They'd really gone
that extra mile to pull in sponsors. So I'd recommend this race to any of you
New York snobs (you know who you are) -- it's the St Mary's Hospital 5k,
Hoboken NJ.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

A training AND race report combined. Nice to see how it all fit
together for you.
And more congrats on the PR.

This will help me organize my own training. Thanks a lot Don.

Enjoy the run
Ed

I luv you guys.
to bad I am 50....
sub 17......
well be tony one day.

some body get me a hanky.........
I need a moment to reflexs on all your
well wait a minute.....

Biking the year thru.

There I Farted!

It Happens...............
o.k.

Now where are you...
were my money?

Biking the year thru.

"exercise physiologist? Is that the modern term for that fat drunken
Gym teacher we all had in high school?

Ohhhhhhhh
right in the mommies daddies parts.
ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I ain't no polor bear.
so if the great lakes is a calling if .. it well has to be in tea
spring summer fall babe.

cartoon tattoos in order. and you can call me nog-err......;.0
I well be the one looking a fool in the water.
The white crain with all the jet skies attacking me.......

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
that hurt babe......

Biking the year thru.

Donovan Rebbechi said:

The DeCastella workout involved hitting 400m reps in as close to
80s, with fast 300m recoveries (at about 90-100seconds/400m pace). The
workout starts with a 200 and finishes with a 300 for a total of 5k:
200m rep + 6x(300m recovery +400m rep) + 300m recovery + 300m rep. The
idea is to push the recovery and time the whole run.

I started doing something similar to these as my initiation to
speedwork last week. I ran on a local 5k course, doing 2 minutes on, 1
minute off for the distance. I probably go easier on the off reps
though. If it's a good 5k predictor, and if my judgment of where the
course starts and stops is correct, then I'm sitting pretty. I can see
why people do speedwork on tracks now. Running on the wet, pre-dawn
roads had me worried about spraining an ankle.

gym.gravity said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

The DeCastella workout involved hitting 400m reps in as close to
80s, with fast 300m recoveries (at about 90-100seconds/400m pace). The
workout starts with a 200 and finishes with a 300 for a total of 5k:
200m rep + 6x(300m recovery +400m rep) + 300m recovery + 300m rep. The
idea is to push the recovery and time the whole run.

I started doing something similar to these as my initiation to
speedwork last week. I ran on a local 5k course, doing 2 minutes on, 1
minute off for the distance. I probably go easier on the off reps
though.

For me, it's closer to 80 on, 60-70 off. I did try using shorter recoveries at
one stage (200m), and found the same thing you did -- you have to go much easier
on the recoveries if you cut them back.

Quoted message said:

If it's a good 5k predictor, and if my judgment of where the
course starts and stops is correct, then I'm sitting pretty.

I think if you can get to within 20 seconds of your goal, you're in very good
shape. You should expect to run 20-30 seconds faster on race day.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

gym.gravity said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

The DeCastella workout involved hitting 400m reps in as close to
80s, with fast 300m recoveries (at about 90-100seconds/400m pace). The
workout starts with a 200 and finishes with a 300 for a total of 5k:
200m rep + 6x(300m recovery +400m rep) + 300m recovery + 300m rep. The
idea is to push the recovery and time the whole run.

I started doing something similar to these as my initiation to
speedwork last week. I ran on a local 5k course, doing 2 minutes on, 1
minute off for the distance. I probably go easier on the off reps
though.

For me, it's closer to 80 on, 60-70 off. I did try using shorter recoveries at
one stage (200m), and found the same thing you did -- you have to go much easier
on the recoveries if you cut them back.

Quoted message said:

If it's a good 5k predictor, and if my judgment of where the
course starts and stops is correct, then I'm sitting pretty.

I think if you can get to within 20 seconds of your goal, you're in very good
shape. You should expect to run 20-30 seconds faster on race day.

I don't want to screw with myself too. I contacted the race director
and found that the certified course map should be online by the end of
the week. I'm eager to know if it starts and finishes where I think it
should, where I started and finished my training runs. I'm also
tempted to do my next set on a track to know the accurate distance, or
maybe do the 400-300 thing, or to do 3x1mile repeats instead of one of
these workouts.

gym.gravity said:

I don't want to screw with myself too. I contacted the race director
and found that the certified course map should be online by the end of
the week. I'm eager to know if it starts and finishes where I think it
should, where I started and finished my training runs. I'm also
tempted to do my next set on a track to know the accurate distance, or
maybe do the 400-300 thing, or to do 3x1mile repeats instead of one of
these workouts.

OK.

Some tips if you do the 300-400 thing --

(1) If you alternate 400-300-400...-400, you end up with a total of 5300. You
can either settle for doing 5300, or as I do, shorten the first rep to 200 and
the last to 300 (so you get 200+6x(300,400)+300+300. This has me finishing a
rep at the 1600m mark (about 1 mile) and another one at the 3k mark -- I like
to record these splits.

(2) If your goal 5k time is 20 minutes, you should use about 92 seconds for
the reps. Try to average exactly 92 over the workout. The reps should be as
even as possible, all the variation should be in the recoveries. Once you get
good at the workout, you should average about 104 seconds per lap on the
recoveries at which stage you'll be completing the workout in about 20:15 which
should give you a comfortable sub 20 if all goes well on race day.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"gym.gravity" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I'm also
tempted to do my next set on a track to know the accurate distance, or
maybe do the 400-300 thing, or to do 3x1mile repeats instead of one of
these workouts.

Not to pour water on the 400-300 thing, but I found that 3 x 1m with full
recovery was a very accurate predictor of my 5k time. If the repeats
averaged 5:10, I could average 5:10 on race day. It's one of those
magic-number workouts, like the Yasoo 800 workout.

I also did 10x400 every week or two, cause they were fun...

Quoted message said:

Looks like you might also have just gotten used to the training
and quit responding. You need to remember what works, but also
mix things up once in awhile.
It's no surprise that increasing mileage helped. Unless you
overtrain or get injured, higher mileage should nearly always
lead to better times.
I've found that it's hard to sustain advances indefinitely. You
should take a week or two every few months and back off. The ideal
time is right after you've peaked going into a goal race.

Thanks for the advice. I have a 10k next week, after that I will take it easy
for a few weeks at least.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

gym.gravity said:

I don't want to screw with myself too. I contacted the race director
and found that the certified course map should be online by the end of
the week. I'm eager to know if it starts and finishes where I think it
should, where I started and finished my training runs. I'm also
tempted to do my next set on a track to know the accurate distance, or
maybe do the 400-300 thing, or to do 3x1mile repeats instead of one of
these workouts.

OK.

Some tips if you do the 300-400 thing --

(1) If you alternate 400-300-400...-400, you end up with a total of 5300. You
can either settle for doing 5300, or as I do, shorten the first rep to 200 and
the last to 300 (so you get 200+6x(300,400)+300+300. This has me finishing a
rep at the 1600m mark (about 1 mile) and another one at the 3k mark -- I like
to record these splits.

(2) If your goal 5k time is 20 minutes, you should use about 92 seconds for
the reps. Try to average exactly 92 over the workout. The reps should be as
even as possible, all the variation should be in the recoveries. Once you get
good at the workout, you should average about 104 seconds per lap on the
recoveries at which stage you'll be completing the workout in about 20:15 which
should give you a comfortable sub 20 if all goes well on race day.

I screwed around on a cinder track the other day. It didn't have any
markings. I guessed that 100m was the distance of the straights and
turns and did what I thought was 400-300-400. I shot for
1:32-1:44-1:32 for a bit over 20 minutes just to be sure I was covering
5k because I couldn't keep track of the laps. My hard laps went a
second or more long because I was late in hitting my watch to record
the split, but my rest intervals were often short such that the net was
only +1second.

I stopped after 14 intevals...7x400's and 7x300's which adds up to
4900meters...when the watch said 22:58. There are a lot of unkowns,
like the length of the track, but I'm guessing it's either 440yards or
400meters. But why don't my numbers add up? Do you only add up the
total time of the hard 400's and run 12-13 of them with 300's in
between?

gym.gravity said:

Quoted message said:

I screwed around on a cinder track the other day. It didn't have any
markings. I guessed that 100m was the distance of the straights and
turns and did what I thought was 400-300-400. I shot for
1:32-1:44-1:32 for a bit over 20 minutes just to be sure I was covering
5k because I couldn't keep track of the laps. My hard laps went a
second or more long because I was late in hitting my watch to record
the split, but my rest intervals were often short such that the net was
only +1second.

I stopped after 14 intevals...7x400's and 7x300's which adds up to
4900meters...when the watch said 22:58. There are a lot of unkowns,
like the length of the track, but I'm guessing it's either 440yards or
400meters. But why don't my numbers add up? Do you only add up the
total time of the hard 400's and run 12-13 of them with 300's in
between?

That's consistent in that 7*93+7*104 = 22:59.

But what I was trying to say in my other post was, 1:44 is supposed to be the
pace *per lap* on the recoveries. So recoveries are about 7min/mile, not
~9min/mile.

So your split for a 300m recovery should be 3/4 * 1:44 = 78 seconds (for
300m). No need to monitor them too closely during the workout though. Just
keep pushing the pace as fast as you can without losing speed on the next rep.
The recoveries should be just shy of tempo pace, because that's just slow
enough for your blood lactate levels to fall so you can do the next rep.

Don't worry too much if the 300m points are not exact. I have much the same
problem- they aren't marked. So I just use some other marker, so half of my
300s are actually about 285 and the others are about 315. The two things that
matter are the total distance and that you start and finish each rep at the
same point.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/