The right to defend your bike.

Sounds like California

Pretty funny! but it's true. -tom

"Bike Camano" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sounds like California

Johan Bornman said:

Translation of an article which appeared in Beeld newspaper, issue of 19 August 2003. South Africa.
Cyclists were shocked on Monday when it became known that two Johannesburg mountain bikers have to
stand trial on a murder charge after they shot and killed an armed attacker.

Perhaps better suited for rec.bike.soc

"Tom Nakashima" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Pretty funny! but it's true. -tom

"Bike Camano" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sounds like California

I agree, in California judges are working overtime to remove your right to defend yourself.

A burglar who slips while trying to break into your skylight and injures himself in your shop can
sue AND WIN from the proprietor.

Johan Bornman said:

"Every case is judged on merit. If the robbers ran away, the Griffith brothers would not have been
in their rights to shoot," she explained.

If the robbers ran away, then the wounds would be to the BACK of the head, not to the face.

the people, so the people protected themselves.

Further, the police would never recover the property (at least, if they're as efficient at not
recovering stuff in South Africa as they are here in the USA), so the only choice left is for the
people to defend their own property.

The very good gun laws in Vermont result in the 2nd lowest crime rates (violent, non-violent, and
combined) in the whole US. I have to believe the criminals are aware of the gun laws, the fact that
anybody could be concealing a handgun, and are scared out of their tree to even steal something.

Laws should be like that many more places (not everywhere, though), and those places will benefit
the same way. The major problem would be the transition period, where I suspect there could be a
time of more shooting incidents before the trigger-happy people die off.

I suspect that in an urban atmosphere, license-free legal handgun concealing would probably result
in a melee that would never settle down...but in rural and light suburban areas...

--
Rick Onanian

Tom Kunich said:

A burglar who slips while trying to break into your skylight and injures himself in your shop can
sue AND WIN from the proprietor.

injures himself...on the glass he broke to get in.

Or injures himself...with the tools he was using to break in.

I'll bet it could happen. I've heard of someone suing (don't recall if he won) for getting cut on
broken glass that he broke while breaking in to someone's house.

More recently, I think in the newspaper, I read of someone who got locked in a garage or something
while breaking in, lived on dog food for a couple weeks while the homeowner was on vacation, and
sued after he was let out. I think I actually just confused and combined a couple stories there...

--
Rick Onanian

x-no-archive:yes

"Bike Camano" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sounds like California

Maybe, but not Texas. Here, you can kill the guy and get off without any problems. We had a case
about 1 1/2 years ago where a guy returned to his pickup truck to find somebody trying to break in
(the guy had broken the window already). When the owner shouted, the thief ran off. The owner then
retrieved his gun from under the truck's seat and shot the thief in the back. He was "no billed"
with the excuse that he had the right to protect his property even in the absence of a bodily
threat. There was another case where a homeowner woke up to find some guys rummaging around in his
garage. He got his rifle and chased them up the street. Standing in the middle of the street with
the guys running away, he shot one of them in the back---and got off without even a citation. There
was no imminent threat, but he wasn't even cited for shooting a firearm in the city limits.

Pat in TX

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:39:19 -0500, "Pat" <[email hidden]> may have said:

[topic was a news report about cyclists in South Africa going armed due to bikejackings, and a
specific incident that resulted when a cyclist shot and killed an assaulter; comment was made that
defending property with lethal force in Texas would have a different outcome]

Quoted message said:

... There was no imminent threat, but he wasn't even cited for shooting a firearm in the
city limits.

This varies by county. Don't rely on it in Harris.

This whole thread is really off topic for the group, though. Followups have been set ro
rec.bicycles.soc, and I'm not sure it's appropriate there either.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Werehatrack
[B]On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:39:19 -0500, "Pat" <[email hidden]> may have said:

[topic was a news report about cyclists in South Africa going armed due to bikejackings, and a
specific incident that resulted when a cyclist shot and killed an assaulter; comment was made that
defending property with lethal force in Texas would have a different outcome]

Caution this may [censored] you off!

I am from the US orignally but, have visited and stayed SA for an extended amount of time. I have also lived in Europe for five years. For all of you die hard people who are going to protect your property from a 17 year old kid, you have no clue at what goes on down there. The US is soft and super safe compared to good ole' SA; it is a beautiful and amazing country though.

There are some simple rules I learned while I was down there.
1. Don't walk after dark, ever. If the bar is only 1 kilometer from your house drink and drive; your chances of getting home safely are much greater.
2. Don't leave anything in your car, ever. There are "car watchers" who, for about 10-20 cents, will make sure you car doesn't get stolen. You don't want their services; you better have insurance. You take their services and try not to pay. Bad idea, I've seen a group of four grown men have the [censored] beat out of them for this; I have also seen a lot of other people pay with their a** for not paying
3. The guy with the gun in Grocery Store parking lot is your friend. In some "less afluent" towns they hire whoever has a gun, shot gun, rifle, AK-47, whatever, to protect the cars and customers.
4. Don't walk if you don't have to, which is rare, and if you do take someone with a gun.

The basic reason for all this is the extreme poverty, aids rate, and lack of education. It is much more complex but, this is what fuels all of the day to day crime. If you are going to have a miserable life and have a low life expectancy, you have nothing to lose. It leads to people with no means of improving thier life. The only choice they have to give thier childern nice things some times is to take yours.

So to be riding along and have someone take your bike at gun point in Joeburg, is not the least bit surprising to me. When I went to that area. I was told that Pretoria was much safer than Joeburg; they are only a few miles apart. Two blocks away from our hostel, which resembled a prision camp, we were caught in the middle of a gang war. Luckily my friend Ben and I were in our rental car. 100 or so people came running directly toward us. We had no clue what was going on, until we saw 100 or so more. Coming from the alley way to our left. Ben tried to slow down to keep from hitting anyone, I slammed his leg all the way down on the gas. We hit and probably hurt quite a few; did we stop to see if the we alright afterwards? Hell no. Did the riot police stop us, no they told us to get out of thier and stay gone.

Other than that, we only hit three other more people with our car. They were at speed and probably caused serious injury. But they were "walkers" people who walk in the middle of small road so you have to stop in order not to hit them. They do this so more poeple come running out of the woods, ditch, or shacks, then car jack, beat, and rob you.

Another thing that was quite easy and fairly obvious was the corruption. You could bribe you way out of any trouble easily; a speeding ticket maybe $5, DUI $20-30, public disturbance/fight $5-50. These were the only problems I had to get out of and at I was on the look out for trouble 5 years ago.

This place is not the US, Canada, or Western Europe people. My SA friends tried to explain this to me but, I didn't get it until I went there.

All said though. It is an amazing and beautiful country; and I would go back in a minute. I would leave the wife at home though for her safety.

Cheers,
Eric

Pretty awesome Eric St. Mary! not your usual cycling story, but I enjoyed reading this over
lunch. -tom

"Eric St. Mary" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Originally posted by Werehatrack On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:39:19 -0500, "Pat" <[email hidden]> may
have said:

[topic was a news report about cyclists in South Africa going armed due to bikejackings, and a
specific incident that resulted when a cyclist shot and killed an assaulter; comment was made that
defending property with lethal force in Texas would have a different outcome]

Caution this may [censored] you off!

I am from the US orignally but, have visited and stayed SA for an extended amount of time. I have
also lived in Europe for five years. For all of you die hard people who are going to protect your
property from a 17 year old kid, you have no clue at what goes on down there. The US is soft and
super safe compared to good ole' SA; it is a beautiful and amazing country though.

There are some simple rules I learned while I was down there.
1. Don't walk after dark, ever. If the bar is only 1 kilometer from your house drink and drive;
your chances of getting home safely are much greater.
2. Don't leave anything in your car, ever. There are "car watchers" who, for about 10-20 cents,
will make sure you car doesn't get stolen. You don't want their services; you better have
insurance. You take their services and try not to pay. Bad idea, I've seen a group of four
grown men have the [censored] beat out of them for this; I have also seen a lot of other people pay
with their a** for not paying
3. The guy with the gun in Grocery Store parking lot is your friend. In some "less afluent" towns
they hire whoever has a gun, shot gun, rifle, AK-47, whatever, to protect the cars and
customers.
4. Don't walk if you don't have to, which is rare, and if you do take someone with a gun.

The basic reason for all this is the extreme poverty, aids rate, and lack of education. It is much
more complex but, this is what fuels all of the day to day crime. If you are going to have a
miserable life and have a low life expectancy, you have nothing to lose. It leads to people with
no means of improving thier life. The only choice they have to give thier childern nice things
some times is to take yours.

So to be riding along and have someone take your bike at gun point in Joeburg, is not the least
bit surprising to me. When I went to that area. I was told that Pretoria was much safer than
Joeburg; they are only a few miles apart. Two blocks away from our hostel, which resembled a
prision camp, we were caught in the middle of a gang war. Luckily my friend Ben and I were in our
rental car. 100 or so people came running directly toward us. We had no clue what was going on,
until we saw 100 or so more. Coming from the alley way to our left. Ben tried to slow down to keep
from hitting anyone, I slammed his leg all the way down on the gas. We hit and probably hurt quite
a few; did we stop to see if the we alright afterwards? Hell no. Did the riot police stop us, no
they told us to get out of thier and stay gone.

Other than that, we only hit three other more people with our car. They were at speed and probably
caused serious injury. But they were "walkers" people who walk in the middle of small road so you
have to stop in order not to hit them. They do this so more poeple come running out of the woods,
ditch, or shacks, then car jack, beat, and rob you.

Another thing that was quite easy and fairly obvious was the corruption. You could bribe you way
out of any trouble easily; a speeding ticket maybe $5, DUI $20-30, public disturbance/fight
$5-50. These were the only problems I had to get out of and at I was on the look out for trouble
5 years ago.

This place is not the US, Canada, or Western Europe people. My SA friends tried to explain this to
me but, I didn't get it until I went there.

All said though. It is an amazing and beautiful country; and I would go back in a minute. I would
leave the wife at home though for her safety.

Cheers, Eric

--

Quoted message said:

--------------------------<

Posted via cyclingforums.com cyclingforums.comcyclingforums.comOpen ↗

Pat said:

Maybe, but not Texas. Here, you can kill the guy and get off without any problems. We had a case
about 1 1/2 years ago where a guy returned to

I ought to move to Texas. Sounds like my kind of joint. Common sense still exists!

Yes, I know the cited stories were a bit extreme in so far as the criminals did not succeed in their
crime and were shot in the back. In that case, the shooters maybe shouldn't have shot to kill, but I
wouldn't want to punish them for defense of themselves, their property, and the law.

Society could stand a reduction of criminals anyway.

Quoted message said:

Pat in TX

--
Rick Onanian

Rick Onanian said:

I ought to move to Texas. Sounds like my kind of joint. Common sense still exists!

I wouldn't go that far. There's a lot of loonies there; not to mention an abnormally large number of
bike-hostile idiots in pickup trucks.

Quoted message said:

Yes, I know the cited stories were a bit extreme in so far as the criminals did not succeed in
their crime and were shot in the back. In that case, the shooters maybe shouldn't have shot to
kill, but I wouldn't want to punish them for defense of themselves, their property, and the law.

Actually, they said one was shot twice in the face, not the back. As near as I can tell from the
O.P. none of the other three robbers was hit. Too bad.

Quoted message said:

Society could stand a reduction of criminals anyway.

That's certainly true. It's especially true in S.A. I've heard some scarry stories about that place.

--Bill Davidson
--
Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.

I'm a 17 year veteran of usenet -- you'd think I'd be over it by now

Rick Onanian said:

Pat said:

Maybe, but not Texas. Here, you can kill the guy and get off without any problems. We had a case
about 1 1/2 years ago where a guy returned to

I ought to move to Texas. Sounds like my kind of joint. Common sense still exists!

Yes, I know the cited stories were a bit extreme in so far as the criminals did not succeed in
their crime and were shot in the back. In that case, the shooters maybe shouldn't have shot to
kill, but I wouldn't want to punish them for defense of themselves, their property, and the law.

Society could stand a reduction of criminals anyway.

I always figured that getting shot is just an occupational hazard of being a crook. Oh well...

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

Never encountered one of those yet, I did have a late 70's Cutlass Supreme stick a ball bat out the
window at me, but they missed! That was 20+ years ago though. These days the worst thing I encounter
is this pack of snobs that all own Bianchi's. Not that I have anything against Bianchi bikes, I
don't, some of them are really nice. But these [censored] show no regard for the others around them, I
made the mistake of saying good morning to them once LOL.

--
twotreks, __o __o _`\(,_ _`\(,_ (_)/ (_) (_)/ (_)

"Bill Davidson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HhT0b.26130$kP.23629@fed1read03...

Rick Onanian said:

I ought to move to Texas. Sounds like my kind of joint. Common sense still exists!

I wouldn't go that far. There's a lot of loonies there; not to mention an abnormally large number of
bike-hostile idiots in pickup trucks.

Quoted message said:

Yes, I know the cited stories were a bit extreme in so far as the criminals did not succeed in
their crime and were shot in the back. In that case, the shooters maybe shouldn't have shot to
kill, but I wouldn't want to punish them for defense of themselves, their property, and the law.

Actually, they said one was shot twice in the face, not the back. As near as I can tell from the
O.P. none of the other three robbers was hit. Too bad.

Quoted message said:

Society could stand a reduction of criminals anyway.

That's certainly true. It's especially true in S.A. I've heard some scarry stories about that place.

--Bill Davidson
--
Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.

I'm a 17 year veteran of usenet -- you'd think I'd be over it by now

Texas is a place a man could grow to like.

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

x-no-archive:yes

"Bike Camano" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sounds like California

Maybe, but not Texas. Here, you can kill the guy and get off without

any

Quoted message said:

problems. We had a case about 1 1/2 years ago where a guy returned

to his

Quoted message said:

pickup truck to find somebody trying to break in (the guy had broken

the

Quoted message said:

window already). When the owner shouted, the thief ran off. The

owner then

Quoted message said:

retrieved his gun from under the truck's seat and shot the thief in

the

Quoted message said:

back. He was "no billed" with the excuse that he had the right to

protect

Quoted message said:

his property even in the absence of a bodily threat. There was

another case

Quoted message said:

where a homeowner woke up to find some guys rummaging around in his

garage.

Quoted message said:

He got his rifle and chased them up the street. Standing in the

middle of

Quoted message said:

the street with the guys running away, he shot one of them in the

back---and

Quoted message said:

got off without even a citation. There was no imminent threat, but

he

Quoted message said:

wasn't even cited for shooting a firearm in the city limits.

Pat in TX

twotreks said:

These days the worst thing I encounter is this pack of snobs that all own Bianchi's. Not that I
have anything against Bianchi bikes, I don't, some of them are really nice. But these [censored]
show no regard for the others around them, I made the mistake of saying good morning to them
once LOL.

--
twotreks, __o __o _`\(,_ _`\(,_ (_)/ (_) (_)/ (_)

What's the deal with some of these people? I usually wave when coming across another cyclist or say
"good morning/evening".

It seems like the more logo'd stuff they wear and the cooler the sunglasses, the less likely they
are to wave back. It isn't a perfect correlation, but close enough.

You know, motorcyclists are a whole lot better. I had a small and cheap motorcycle, and even owners
of $15k+ bikes would give a friendly wave going by.

And that's my rant for the day. You may now return to shooting people in the back..

Jim

or stay the hell out of.

dookie

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Texas is a place a man could grow to like.

[snip...two stories about texans shooting criminals in the back without reprimand]

the last bianchi rider i ran across (at a training race) gave me the thumbs up and said 'let's hear
it for the old-school italian steel riders' (mine is scapin). there were a couple other steel
bikes...land shark and lemond, i think...otherwise ti, al and c. and we were the *only* campy riders
in a group of ~30.

let's hear it for the deviants!

dookie

ps - he did have celeste *everything*...frame, jersey, pedals, tires, computer...

"Jim, N2VX" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

twotreks said:

These days the worst thing I encounter is this pack of snobs that all own Bianchi's. Not that I
have anything against Bianchi bikes, I don't, some of them are really nice. But these [censored]
show no regard

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the others around them, I made the mistake of saying good morning to them once LOL.

--
twotreks, __o __o _`\(,_ _`\(,_ (_)/ (_) (_)/ (_)

What's the deal with some of these people? I usually wave when coming across another cyclist or
say "good morning/evening".

It seems like the more logo'd stuff they wear and the cooler the sunglasses, the less likely they
are to wave back. It isn't a perfect correlation, but close enough.

You know, motorcyclists are a whole lot better. I had a small and cheap motorcycle, and even
owners of $15k+ bikes would give a friendly wave going by.

And that's my rant for the day. You may now return to shooting people in the back..

Jim

"CampyO" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you shoot someone in the back as he's running away, you're not really protecting anything, are
you? The threat to property is already gone.

Naw, you're protecting a value system and way of life, not to mention your neighbor and
his property.

Quoted message said:

When you get down to it, it's pathetic that a pickup truck is worth more

than a

Quoted message said:

human life.

The burglar should've realized that before he got started!

Quoted message said:

Heck, the truck was probably insured. It was just an ego thing.

--
Robin Hubert <[email hidden]