The real scandal

benjo maso said:

And what's even worse is that now that it's clear that this
suspicion is unfounded, none of those people who were involved in the
decicion to exclude them from the Tour, seems to have the decency to resign
or at least to say they are sorry and will do everything to prevent a repeat
of this blunder. Obviously they are so convinced they are right that they
don't care about the consequences of their self-rigteous, their lust for
power or whatever it might be.

I expect anybody who recanted would make it into Torquemada Pound's
not so little black book.

benjo maso said:

The real scandal of the last weeks is not that Floyd Landis tested positive.
This unfortunate incident is shrinking to insignificance compared to the
real scandal concerning the two teams (Comunidad and Astana-Würth) which
were not allowed to participate to the Tour, because some of their riders
might have been in contact with dr. Fuentes, who might have precribed them
products on the anti-doping list. In other word, the career of 18 pro's has
been affected and perhaps even destroyed, a decision based on mere
suspicion. And what's even worse is that now that it's clear that this
suspicion is unfounded, none of those people who were involved in the
decicion to exclude them from the Tour, seems to have the decency to resign
or at least to say they are sorry and will do everything to prevent a repeat
of this blunder. Obviously they are so convinced they are right that they
don't care about the consequences of their self-rigteous, their lust for
power or whatever it might be. And why should they? Almost nobody seems to
care. Nobody or almost nobody has stated that the current anti-doping policy
should be drastically reformed. The innocence of the two teams seems to be
so umimportant that it has been hardly reported in the media.

Benjo

Thank you Benjo!
This is exactly what I was thinking. The accusations against these
riders seem to be falling apart at a massive rate. Really makes me
wonder just what was going in with the police and politicians.
If you follow any of our US news it's a lot like the lacrosse rape
caser at Duke university. The prosecutor was coming up for election and
needed a boost so he took a very questionable case and turned it into a
huge event with his public comments and actions. Now that he's been
re-elected he's saying he made mistakes, and look at all the other good
things I've done, as his case is totally falling apart.
The kids involved are jackasses, but in this case there's no chance in
hell of proving them guilty. They were rich, white, privileged kids and
the DA needed the support of the poor minority community to get
re-elected so he played it for all it was worth despite all the early
evidence punching huge holes in his case.
The first thing that has to happen is that the system needs to be
responsible. It takes a hell of a lot more courage to stand by all the
principles of a fair, just, innocent until proven guilty system,
especially when there is a huge public outcry from the media, than to
do a kneejerk reaction. Unfortunately courage seems to be in pretty
short supply, other than with the riders.
Bill C

benjo maso said:

The real scandal of the last weeks is not that Floyd Landis tested positive.
This unfortunate incident is shrinking to insignificance compared to the
real scandal concerning the two teams (Comunidad and Astana-Würth) which
were not allowed to participate to the Tour, because some of their riders
might have been in contact with dr. Fuentes, who might have precribed them
products on the anti-doping list. In other word, the career of 18 pro's has
been affected and perhaps even destroyed, a decision based on mere
suspicion. And what's even worse is that now that it's clear that this
suspicion is unfounded, none of those people who were involved in the
decicion to exclude them from the Tour, seems to have the decency to resign
or at least to say they are sorry and will do everything to prevent a repeat
of this blunder. Obviously they are so convinced they are right that they
don't care about the consequences of their self-rigteous, their lust for
power or whatever it might be. And why should they? Almost nobody seems to
care. Nobody or almost nobody has stated that the current anti-doping policy
should be drastically reformed. The innocence of the two teams seems to be
so umimportant that it has been hardly reported in the media.

Benjo

Agreed. Landis will have his day in court, or actually given the
lengthy appeal process, his many days in court. He and his lawyers will
have their chances to convince us that the science is wrong, or whatever
arguments they wish to muster.

What about the Puerto riders? The UCI has still not forwarded the
documents to the German or Italian federations. The riders remain
suspended indefinitely. Though Liberty has been cleared to ride, the
German federation refuses to allow Jaksche to race. Over the last few
days the president of the Italian federation has written two letters to
the UCI demanding that they forward the relevent documents so that the
federation can release the Italian riders from limbo (the letters were
published at tuttobiciweb.it). Despite the clearance of Liberty and CV,
the Vuelta organizors still refuse to allow CV to ride and may yet
exclude Liberty, or sorry, Astana as I should say. So their status also
remains ambiguous.

The delay and lack of due process are disgraceful. If the evidence is
so damning, then certainly the riders should be sanctioned. But not
without a chance to defend their actions. Trial by denouncement is no
justice. As you say, this is a scandal.

j

benjo maso said:

The real scandal of the last weeks is not that Floyd Landis tested positive.
This unfortunate incident is shrinking to insignificance compared to the
real scandal concerning the two teams (Comunidad and Astana-Würth) which
were not allowed to participate to the Tour, because some of their riders
might have been in contact with dr. Fuentes, who might have precribed them
products on the anti-doping list. In other word, the career of 18 pro's has
been affected and perhaps even destroyed, a decision based on mere
suspicion. And what's even worse is that now that it's clear that this
suspicion is unfounded, none of those people who were involved in the
decicion to exclude them from the Tour, seems to have the decency to resign
or at least to say they are sorry and will do everything to prevent a repeat
of this blunder. Obviously they are so convinced they are right that they
don't care about the consequences of their self-rigteous, their lust for
power or whatever it might be. And why should they? Almost nobody seems to
care. Nobody or almost nobody has stated that the current anti-doping policy
should be drastically reformed. The innocence of the two teams seems to be
so umimportant that it has been hardly reported in the media.

There is this very unseemly "gotcha" mentality in some people. We see it here
all the time. Guys who all but cackle when they think they see weakness or
vulnerability on the part of someone to whom they feel inferior. And these are
sometimes people with a lot to feel inferior about. The people who find
gratification this way are very quick to forget all about it whenever their
target is vindicated. By then they've moved on to some other target.

Prosecutors and cops are not only subject to this themselves, they know how to
play it for their constituents.

Ron

On Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:35:50 +0200, "benjo maso" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The real scandal of the last weeks is not that Floyd Landis tested positive.
This unfortunate incident is shrinking to insignificance compared to the
real scandal concerning the two teams (Comunidad and Astana-Würth) which
were not allowed to participate to the Tour, because some of their riders
might have been in contact with dr. Fuentes, who might have precribed them
products on the anti-doping list. In other word, the career of 18 pro's has
been affected and perhaps even destroyed, a decision based on mere
suspicion. And what's even worse is that now that it's clear that this
suspicion is unfounded

That's the key here, are you referring to the fact that the riders
like Beloki got a letter for the Spanish prosecutor saying they had
done nothing illegal ? That doesn't mean they didn't dope right.
Clearly due process should happen but we shoudln't jump to conlusions
the other way round.

Quoted message said:

none of those people who were involved in the
decicion to exclude them from the Tour, seems to have the decency to resign
or at least to say they are sorry and will do everything to prevent a repeat
of this blunder. Obviously they are so convinced they are right that they
don't care about the consequences of their self-rigteous, their lust for
power or whatever it might be. And why should they? Almost nobody seems to
care. Nobody or almost nobody has stated that the current anti-doping policy
should be drastically reformed. The innocence of the two teams seems to be
so umimportant that it has been hardly reported in the media.

Benjo

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> solemnly wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

The real scandal of the last weeks is not that Floyd Landis tested
positive. This unfortunate incident is shrinking to insignificance
compared to the real scandal concerning the two teams (Comunidad and
Astana-Würth) which were not allowed to participate to the Tour,
because some of their riders might have been in contact with dr.
Fuentes, who might have precribed them products on the anti-doping
list. In other word, the career of 18 pro's has been affected and
perhaps even destroyed, a decision based on mere suspicion. And what's
even worse is that now that it's clear that this suspicion is
unfounded, none of those people who were involved in the decicion to
exclude them from the Tour, seems to have the decency to resign or at
least to say they are sorry and will do everything to prevent a repeat
of this blunder. Obviously they are so convinced they are right that
they don't care about the consequences of their self-rigteous, their
lust for power or whatever it might be. And why should they? Almost
nobody seems to care. Nobody or almost nobody has stated that the
current anti-doping policy should be drastically reformed. The
innocence of the two teams seems to be so umimportant that it has been
hardly reported in the media.

Benjo

Collateral damage from the War Against Doping

"Keith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:35:50 +0200, "benjo maso" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The real scandal of the last weeks is not that Floyd Landis tested
positive.
This unfortunate incident is shrinking to insignificance compared to the
real scandal concerning the two teams (Comunidad and Astana-Würth) which
were not allowed to participate to the Tour, because some of their riders
might have been in contact with dr. Fuentes, who might have precribed them
products on the anti-doping list. In other word, the career of 18 pro's
has
been affected and perhaps even destroyed, a decision based on mere
suspicion. And what's even worse is that now that it's clear that this
suspicion is unfounded

That's the key here, are you referring to the fact that the riders
like Beloki got a letter for the Spanish prosecutor saying they had
done nothing illegal ? That doesn't mean they didn't dope right.
Clearly due process should happen but we shoudln't jump to conlusions
the other way round.

The Comunidad Valencia was excluded from the Tour for only one reason:
because they were suspected to have been in contact with dr. Fuentes. The
Spanish court investigating Operacion Puerto case has announced the 28 july
that the Comunidad Valenciana riders "do not appear in the list of those
implicated in Operación Puerto." That means the team isn't even suspected
anymore by the Spanish court to have been involved in the Fuentes-case. Does
that prove that none of the members of the team ever doped himself? Of
course not. Nobody can prove he never took one of the products on the
WADA-list. But does that mean they should be considered to be guilty,
excluded from the Vuelta because of that document drawn up in Strasbourg and
so amusingly called the "ethical code"?

Benjo

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The real scandal of the last weeks is not that Floyd Landis tested
positive. This unfortunate incident is shrinking to insignificance
compared to the real scandal concerning the two teams (Comunidad and
Astana-Würth) which were not allowed to participate to the Tour, because
some of their riders might have been in contact with dr. Fuentes, who
might have precribed them products on the anti-doping list. In other word,
the career of 18 pro's has been affected and perhaps even destroyed, a
decision based on mere suspicion. And what's even worse is that now that
it's clear that this suspicion is unfounded, none of those people who were
involved in the decicion to exclude them from the Tour, seems to have the
decency to resign or at least to say they are sorry and will do everything
to prevent a repeat of this blunder. Obviously they are so convinced they
are right that they don't care about the consequences of their
self-rigteous, their lust for power or whatever it might be. And why
should they? Almost nobody seems to care. Nobody or almost nobody has
stated that the current anti-doping policy should be drastically reformed.
The innocence of the two teams seems to be so umimportant that it has been
hardly reported in the media.

Benjo

Worst can happen to us in our life as citizen.
Accusations proved to be false after custody, or month if not years in jail,
or even innocent with death penalty.
The suspension for the TDF, even for an innocent, seems to me to be a very
light injustice.

On other way, all the riders need to share part of the blame.
They had to understand that the public was bored, tired, outraged.
Who paid them all this millions ? The Sponsors ? No. The public along the
road.
What have them done for to extirpate this cancer ?
Very few, if not nothing.
We remember what happened to Simeoni when he began to tell the true .
We remember what Lance did with Filippo Simeoni during this stage of the
TDF.
We remember the way Lance and all his friends obliged Christophe Bassons to
leave the TDF
We remember Lance when he said " S'il pense que le cyclisme fonctionne comme
cela, il se trompe et c'est mieux qu'il rentre chez lui ".

Sorry Benjo, but too much " esprit de corps ".

Keith said:

On Wed, 2 Aug 2006 15:35:50 +0200, "benjo maso" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The real scandal of the last weeks is not that Floyd Landis tested positive.
This unfortunate incident is shrinking to insignificance compared to the
real scandal concerning the two teams (Comunidad and Astana-Würth) which
were not allowed to participate to the Tour, because some of their riders
might have been in contact with dr. Fuentes, who might have precribed them
products on the anti-doping list. In other word, the career of 18 pro's has
been affected and perhaps even destroyed, a decision based on mere
suspicion. And what's even worse is that now that it's clear that this
suspicion is unfounded

That's the key here, are you referring to the fact that the riders
like Beloki got a letter for the Spanish prosecutor saying they had
done nothing illegal ? That doesn't mean they didn't dope right.
Clearly due process should happen but we shoudln't jump to conlusions
the other way round.

Quoted message said:

none of those people who were involved in the
decicion to exclude them from the Tour, seems to have the decency to resign
or at least to say they are sorry and will do everything to prevent a repeat
of this blunder. Obviously they are so convinced they are right that they
don't care about the consequences of their self-rigteous, their lust for
power or whatever it might be. And why should they? Almost nobody seems to
care. Nobody or almost nobody has stated that the current anti-doping policy
should be drastically reformed. The innocence of the two teams seems to be
so umimportant that it has been hardly reported in the media.

Benjo

Permit me to "ditto" your sentiments. And if I might add a query.

If have come to wonder whether serious doping is as prevalent as the
UCI and others repeated claim. The basis for my reservations arise
from an odd turn of events the facts of which may, in time, enter your
lexicon of interest stories.

I have come to be convinced that alcohol has a significant influence
on T/E levels. See:
http://dirtragmag.com/forums/showpost.php?p=112477&postcount=13,
(alcohol consumption increases T/E by 30%-277%) and
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB115444904804023475-b3Yk05K97EtFKvdjhAVAvcCleyE_20060831.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top
("Landis's Alcohol Defense"😉. Apparently this is a result of
the body metabolizing the "E" and lowering it relative to "T'.
I think the truth of the matter is that this will eventually come
out. Recall if you will, that from the beginning Landis has said that
it was low "E" levels which caused the ratio to be high.
Importantly, the "E" level is not related to his heroic performance
on the Stage 17. He gained no benefit from having a T/E ratio greater
than 4/1. The result: Landis many not have taken a performance
enhancing drug (a caveat: which raised his T/E ratio above the speed
limit of 4/1). He was no cheater.

Once we digest this concept digested, and for the purposes of this
story accepted, the plot thickens. If you will recall, Mr. Armstrong
on the night of the Stage 16 is the one who brought the whiskey bottle
to Mr. Landis. The consumed considerable amounts together. Presumably
Mr. Armstrong was there to console and comfort a friend and teammate
and ultimately to encourage perseverance to do his best the next day.
But, tragically for all, Mr. Armstrong was administering the agent of
his friend's downfall - alcohol.

This would be story enough, but perhaps we may turn another page. Mr.
Armstrong has long been accused of being a master doper of virtually
superhuman proportions whose genius in the dark art of doping has
permitted him to evade capture these many years by the UCI. But how do
we square Armstrong the evil genius who knows all with the Armstrong
who gives his friend alcohol, the agent of his undoing? If Armstrong
really where that all knowing he surely would have been aware
alcohol's effect on metabolism and on the T/E ratio. He surely
would not give his friend "poison".

So to me the final questions are: what to do riders, in today's
world, really know about doping? Is the image of all riders being
serious droppers a myth? And, if Armstrong is so innocent of
alcohol's effect, what else is he innocent of?

Montesquiou said:

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The real scandal of the last weeks is not that Floyd Landis tested
positive. This unfortunate incident is shrinking to insignificance
compared to the real scandal concerning the two teams (Comunidad and
Astana-Würth) which were not allowed to participate to the Tour, because
some of their riders might have been in contact with dr. Fuentes, who
might have precribed them products on the anti-doping list. In other word,
the career of 18 pro's has been affected and perhaps even destroyed, a
decision based on mere suspicion. And what's even worse is that now that
it's clear that this suspicion is unfounded, none of those people who were
involved in the decicion to exclude them from the Tour, seems to have the
decency to resign or at least to say they are sorry and will do everything
to prevent a repeat of this blunder. Obviously they are so convinced they
are right that they don't care about the consequences of their
self-rigteous, their lust for power or whatever it might be. And why
should they? Almost nobody seems to care. Nobody or almost nobody has
stated that the current anti-doping policy should be drastically reformed.
The innocence of the two teams seems to be so umimportant that it has been
hardly reported in the media.

Benjo

Worst can happen to us in our life as citizen.
Accusations proved to be false after custody, or month if not years in jail,
or even innocent with death penalty.
The suspension for the TDF, even for an innocent, seems to me to be a very
light injustice.

On other way, all the riders need to share part of the blame.
They had to understand that the public was bored, tired, outraged.
Who paid them all this millions ? The Sponsors ? No. The public along the
road.
What have them done for to extirpate this cancer ?
Very few, if not nothing.
We remember what happened to Simeoni when he began to tell the true .
We remember what Lance did with Filippo Simeoni during this stage of the
TDF.
We remember the way Lance and all his friends obliged Christophe Bassons to
leave the TDF
We remember Lance when he said " S'il pense que le cyclisme fonctionne comme
cela, il se trompe et c'est mieux qu'il rentre chez lui ".

Sorry Benjo, but too much " esprit de corps ".

Let's just guillotine all the riders on the street in front of the Arc
de Triomphe after the final Tour stage finishes, because they are all
doping and we just haven't caught them yet, then we can apologize to
any that prove themselves innocent afterward.
At least Lafferty was suggesting a year long suspension of the sport
while all this was worked out and a new start for everyone, not a
continuing crusade, and "The Lord Shall Know His Own".
It's tough to find real estate farther out on the "hang the dopers no
matter what" road than Brian, but you are definitely getting there.
Bill C

Montesquiou said:

I was telling the opposit. The injustice and the true scandal is when many
champions are living in the shadow, incognito, because they are not doped.
It would be nice to respect them also. They are victim, it is not ?

We agree on the victims being the clean riders, but how about all the
clean riders being slandered because of the doper witch hunt, aren't
they victims?

Quoted message said:

****
I agree with Lafferty. A year long suspention.
But it seems you desagree with him.
At least some others doping apologist agree with a punition.

Find anything where I have been a doping apologist, or against very
strong penalties once justly proven.
You won't, because you can't, because it doesn't exist. To use a
phrase as it's currently being used everywhere but the US, I'm not in
favor of "cowboy" anti-doping.
Bill C

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Montesquiou said:

I was telling the opposit. The injustice and the true scandal is when
many
champions are living in the shadow, incognito, because they are not
doped.
It would be nice to respect them also. They are victim, it is not ?

We agree on the victims being the clean riders, but how about all the
clean riders being slandered because of the doper witch hunt, aren't
they victims?

Quoted message said:

****
I agree with Lafferty. A year long suspention.
But it seems you desagree with him.
At least some others doping apologist agree with a punition.

Find anything where I have been a doping apologist,

And you where I asked for Guillotine ? 😉

or against very

Quoted message said:

strong penalties once justly proven.
You won't, because you can't, because it doesn't exist. To use a
phrase as it's currently being used everywhere but the US, I'm not in
favor of "cowboy" anti-doping.
Bill C

<Montesquiou> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The real scandal of the last weeks is not that Floyd Landis tested
positive. This unfortunate incident is shrinking to insignificance
compared to the real scandal concerning the two teams (Comunidad and
Astana-Würth) which were not allowed to participate to the Tour, because
some of their riders might have been in contact with dr. Fuentes, who
might have precribed them products on the anti-doping list. In other
word, the career of 18 pro's has been affected and perhaps even
destroyed, a decision based on mere suspicion. And what's even worse is
that now that it's clear that this suspicion is unfounded, none of those
people who were involved in the decicion to exclude them from the Tour,
seems to have the decency to resign or at least to say they are sorry and
will do everything to prevent a repeat of this blunder. Obviously they
are so convinced they are right that they don't care about the
consequences of their self-rigteous, their lust for power or whatever it
might be. And why should they? Almost nobody seems to care. Nobody or
almost nobody has stated that the current anti-doping policy should be
drastically reformed. The innocence of the two teams seems to be so
umimportant that it has been hardly reported in the media.

Benjo

Worst can happen to us in our life as citizen.
Accusations proved to be false after custody, or month if not years in
jail, or even innocent with death penalty.
The suspension for the TDF, even for an innocent, seems to me to be a very
light injustice.

On other way, all the riders need to share part of the blame.
They had to understand that the public was bored, tired, outraged.
Who paid them all this millions ? The Sponsors ? No. The public along the
road.
What have them done for to extirpate this cancer ?
Very few, if not nothing.
We remember what happened to Simeoni when he began to tell the true .
We remember what Lance did with Filippo Simeoni during this stage of the
TDF.
We remember the way Lance and all his friends obliged Christophe Bassons
to leave the TDF
We remember Lance when he said " S'il pense que le cyclisme fonctionne
comme cela, il se trompe et c'est mieux qu'il rentre chez lui ".

Sorry Benjo, but too much " esprit de corps ".

Doping is indeed part of the cycling culture, and the rules against the use
of performance enhancing products which have been forced upon the peloton,
hasn't lead to a fundamental change. That's all true, but it still doesn't
justify to punish some of them who might be guilty, but might be innocent as
well. Of course, excluding a team from the Tour isn't as bad as putting it
in prison, but one of the consequences of this measure, the fact that the
Valencian Government has decided to terminate its sponsorship of the
Comunidad Valenciana cycling team, means that some of its members are now
unemployed and possibly forced to end their career. OK, it's not the death
penalty, but it's pretty hard for the riders in question and totally unjust.

Benjo

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Montesquiou said:

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The real scandal of the last weeks is not that Floyd Landis tested
positive. This unfortunate incident is shrinking to insignificance
compared to the real scandal concerning the two teams (Comunidad and
Astana-Würth) which were not allowed to participate to the Tour, because
some of their riders might have been in contact with dr. Fuentes, who
might have precribed them products on the anti-doping list. In other
word,
the career of 18 pro's has been affected and perhaps even destroyed, a
decision based on mere suspicion. And what's even worse is that now that
it's clear that this suspicion is unfounded, none of those people who
were
involved in the decicion to exclude them from the Tour, seems to have
the
decency to resign or at least to say they are sorry and will do
everything
to prevent a repeat of this blunder. Obviously they are so convinced
they
are right that they don't care about the consequences of their
self-rigteous, their lust for power or whatever it might be. And why
should they? Almost nobody seems to care. Nobody or almost nobody has
stated that the current anti-doping policy should be drastically
reformed.
The innocence of the two teams seems to be so umimportant that it has
been
hardly reported in the media.

Benjo

Worst can happen to us in our life as citizen.
Accusations proved to be false after custody, or month if not years in
jail,
or even innocent with death penalty.
The suspension for the TDF, even for an innocent, seems to me to be a very
light injustice.

On other way, all the riders need to share part of the blame.
They had to understand that the public was bored, tired, outraged.
Who paid them all this millions ? The Sponsors ? No. The public along the
road.
What have them done for to extirpate this cancer ?
Very few, if not nothing.
We remember what happened to Simeoni when he began to tell the true .
We remember what Lance did with Filippo Simeoni during this stage of the
TDF.
We remember the way Lance and all his friends obliged Christophe Bassons
to
leave the TDF
We remember Lance when he said " S'il pense que le cyclisme fonctionne
comme
cela, il se trompe et c'est mieux qu'il rentre chez lui ".

Sorry Benjo, but too much " esprit de corps ".

Let's just guillotine all the riders on the street in front of the Arc
de Triomphe after the final Tour stage finishes, because they are all
doping and we just haven't caught them yet, then we can apologize to
any that prove themselves innocent afterward.
At least Lafferty was suggesting a year long suspension of the sport
while all this was worked out and a new start for everyone, not a
continuing crusade, and "The Lord Shall Know His Own".

Attributed to the papal legate Arnaud-Amaury. And it was Amaury Sport
Organisation which excluded the two teams from the Tour de France. Can't be
a coincidence :-)

Benjo

In article <[email hidden]>,

Montesquiou said:

On other way, all the riders need to share part of the blame.
They had to understand that the public was bored, tired, outraged.
Who paid them all this millions ? The Sponsors ? No. The public along the
road.

The public does not care about doping as long as they are
not forced to read about it in the newspapers.

How about taking your crusade to the futbol newsgroups?

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

How about taking your crusade to the futbol newsgroups?

I think flandis should consider employing the lawyers for those Italian
clubs. If he doesn't get off, he can at least get his ban reduced to 3
months.

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<Montesquiou> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The real scandal of the last weeks is not that Floyd Landis tested
positive. This unfortunate incident is shrinking to insignificance
compared to the real scandal concerning the two teams (Comunidad and
Astana-Würth) which were not allowed to participate to the Tour, because
some of their riders might have been in contact with dr. Fuentes, who
might have precribed them products on the anti-doping list. In other
word, the career of 18 pro's has been affected and perhaps even
destroyed, a decision based on mere suspicion. And what's even worse is
that now that it's clear that this suspicion is unfounded, none of those
people who were involved in the decicion to exclude them from the Tour,
seems to have the decency to resign or at least to say they are sorry
and will do everything to prevent a repeat of this blunder. Obviously
they are so convinced they are right that they don't care about the
consequences of their self-rigteous, their lust for power or whatever
it might be. And why should they? Almost nobody seems to care. Nobody or
almost nobody has stated that the current anti-doping policy should be
drastically reformed. The innocence of the two teams seems to be so
umimportant that it has been hardly reported in the media.

Benjo

Worst can happen to us in our life as citizen.
Accusations proved to be false after custody, or month if not years in
jail, or even innocent with death penalty.
The suspension for the TDF, even for an innocent, seems to me to be a
very light injustice.

On other way, all the riders need to share part of the blame.
They had to understand that the public was bored, tired, outraged.
Who paid them all this millions ? The Sponsors ? No. The public along the
road.
What have them done for to extirpate this cancer ?
Very few, if not nothing.
We remember what happened to Simeoni when he began to tell the true .
We remember what Lance did with Filippo Simeoni during this stage of
the TDF.
We remember the way Lance and all his friends obliged Christophe Bassons
to leave the TDF
We remember Lance when he said " S'il pense que le cyclisme fonctionne
comme cela, il se trompe et c'est mieux qu'il rentre chez lui ".

Sorry Benjo, but too much " esprit de corps ".

Doping is indeed part of the cycling culture, and the rules against the
use of performance enhancing products which have been forced upon the
peloton, hasn't lead to a fundamental change. That's all true, but it
still doesn't justify to punish some of them who might be guilty, but
might be innocent as well. Of course, excluding a team from the Tour isn't
as bad as putting it in prison, but one of the consequences of this
measure, the fact that the Valencian Government has decided to terminate
its sponsorship of the Comunidad Valenciana cycling team, means that some
of its members are now unemployed and possibly forced to end their career.
OK, it's not the death penalty, but it's pretty hard for the riders in
question and totally unjust.

Benjo

I understand your point Benjo. I feel also very sorry for the Comunidad
Valenciana cycling team.
But I am sure you also understand that we are in 2006 right now.
What the Europeans fans could accept 10 or 20 years ago, they don't accept
anymore.
Comunidad Valenciana don't want his name in association with accusation of
doping.

It is not because Anquetil could take what he wanted in the 60's that today
also the peloton can do it.
During the Anquetil time I could take my car after some glass of wine, today
I can't.

The mentalities are different today. It is not just the TDF who is in
danger. It is bicycle racing.
I never believed Leblanc or the direction of the TDF or the UCI to fight
against doping because they are " nice " guys. No. As men of marketing, as
in charge of a big machine called bicycle racing they know that the problem
is CREDIBILITY.
If they don't act right now this sport is lost.

benjo maso ha scritto:
because of that document drawn up in Strasbourg and

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so amusingly called the "ethical code"?

Dear Benjo,
I do not know how the parties came to agree upond and
undersign this so called 'Ethical Code'; I wonder and have a question
about it.

Dind't the riders and whoever took care of their interests realise how
potentially dangerous this agreement was going to be?
Were they so stupid, or just weak from a bargaining point of view?
To me, it is clear that the Sponsors wanted to be guaranteed that no
adverse publicity would result (for them, it is clearly better that a
rider under investigation not ride at all), but were the riders so
stupid as not to throw that guarantee onto the bargaining table, so as
to essentially cash a better contract under the promise to be clean of
any accusation?

If so, they only sold a promise.
Did they not?

Sergio
Pisa

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

been affected and perhaps even destroyed, a decision based on mere
suspicion. And what's even worse is that now that it's clear that this
suspicion is unfounded

That's the key here, are you referring to the fact that the riders
like Beloki got a letter for the Spanish prosecutor saying they had
done nothing illegal ? That doesn't mean they didn't dope right.
Clearly due process should happen but we shoudln't jump to conlusions
the other way round.

The Comunidad Valencia was excluded from the Tour for only one reason:
because they were suspected to have been in contact with dr. Fuentes. The
Spanish court investigating Operacion Puerto case has announced the 28 july
that the Comunidad Valenciana riders "do not appear in the list of those
implicated in Operación Puerto." That means the team isn't even suspected
anymore by the Spanish court to have been involved in the Fuentes-case. Does
that prove that none of the members of the team ever doped himself? Of
course not. Nobody can prove he never took one of the products on the
WADA-list. But does that mean they should be considered to be guilty,
excluded from the Vuelta because of that document drawn up in Strasbourg and
so amusingly called the "ethical code"?

Right, the "limbo" this so-called code has created is mind-boggling. I
hadn't heard about the CV being cleared of any connection to Fuentes
whatsoever, you have to wonder how someone could make up that story
though or come to this conclusion though...On the other hand this is
the infamous Kelme team right, with the whole Manzano fiasco, not to
mention Botero, Sevilla and Terminaitor, wasn't Fuentes the actual
team doctor at one point.

All this [censored] is sickening.

Reading your PDM/Theunisse story yesterday, I really think nothing has
changed, you still have doctors injecting stuff just up to the limit,
50% HCT, 4:1 T/E ratio, etc...