The real reason Hoste lost

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dumbasses -

In a 2 up sprint, the basic principle is simple: go from where you
know you can accelerate all the way to the line. If you're still
accelerating in the last meters, it's difficult to come around you
because the guy behind has to match your acceleration and put
something on top of it. By contrast, if the lead rider isn't
accelerating anymore, then all the rear rider has to do is accelerate
into the slipstream, then come out into the wind and go past.

Although the basic principle of accelerating all the way to the line
is simple, calculating when to go is far more complicated. It depends
upon the abilities of the riders in question, how tired they are, how
fast they are going at the moment vs. how far away they are from the
line at the moment. Lotta variables.

Hoste went from 150 meters today. Normally that's not too far out. Fly
in the ointment though. Look at this photo:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/apr07/rvv07/index.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/rvv07/fs005

It appears as if the entire finishing straight is slightly uphill.
That affects the calculations very significantly. If the finish were
flat, the 150 meters would have been fine for Hoste. But in an uphill,
it's much more difficult to maintain acceleration with gravity working
against you. Ballan got protection in the slipstream and Hoste's
acceleration petered out at the end.

Track racers understand how to ride that sort of finish very well -
it's Match Sprinting 101. Roadies not so much - they don't end up in
that situation so often and usually one of them makes a really dumb
move. Hoste's gotta be bummed. He should've waited another 20 meters
before going. He'll never forget this one.

Maybe. But there's also the factor that when two riders are out alone that
far for a long final sprint, one of them always ends up doing a lead out for
the other. That's my guess from the photo. The only other option is doing
a track stand and letting the pack pass you up.

Caroline
ex-USCF race official

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Dumbasses -

In a 2 up sprint, the basic principle is simple: go from where you
know you can accelerate all the way to the line. If you're still
accelerating in the last meters, it's difficult to come around you
because the guy behind has to match your acceleration and put
something on top of it. By contrast, if the lead rider isn't
accelerating anymore, then all the rear rider has to do is accelerate
into the slipstream, then come out into the wind and go past.

Although the basic principle of accelerating all the way to the line
is simple, calculating when to go is far more complicated. It depends
upon the abilities of the riders in question, how tired they are, how
fast they are going at the moment vs. how far away they are from the
line at the moment. Lotta variables.

Hoste went from 150 meters today. Normally that's not too far out. Fly
in the ointment though. Look at this photo:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/apr07/rvv07/index.php?id=/phot...

It appears as if the entire finishing straight is slightly uphill.
That affects the calculations very significantly. If the finish were
flat, the 150 meters would have been fine for Hoste. But in an uphill,
it's much more difficult to maintain acceleration with gravity working
against you. Ballan got protection in the slipstream and Hoste's
acceleration petered out at the end.

Track racers understand how to ride that sort of finish very well -
it's Match Sprinting 101. Roadies not so much - they don't end up in
that situation so often and usually one of them makes a really dumb
move. Hoste's gotta be bummed. He should've waited another 20 meters
before going. He'll never forget this one.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/apr05/rvv05/index.php?id=raceday/32

Photo of previous race, shows the LH barriers without follow cars in
the way. Definitely a hump-- not a climb but a nice little uphill (one
might think) placed in the course for just this "confounding" effect
on the outcome of finishes.

Quoted message said:

From photos, very close. Film at 6:00 (Versus). --D-y

Quoted post said:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/apr05/rvv05/index.php?id=raced...

Photo of previous race, shows the LH barriers without follow cars in
the way. Definitely a hump-- not a climb but a nice little uphill (one
might think) placed in the course for just this "confounding" effect
on the outcome of finishes.

It's definitely uphill (ridden it a few times) and I would imagine
it's fairly easy to misjudge. Hoste should have known better, having
twice finished second in a sprint there prior to today. Or maybe that
proves that he doesn't know better :-)

Nice finish though - I enjoyed that.

Jeff

Caroline said:

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dumbasses -

Quoted message said:

In a 2 up sprint, the basic principle is simple: go from where you
know you can accelerate all the way to the line. If you're still
accelerating in the last meters, it's difficult to come around you
because the guy behind has to match your acceleration and put
something on top of it. By contrast, if the lead rider isn't
accelerating anymore, then all the rear rider has to do is accelerate
into the slipstream, then come out into the wind and go past.

Quoted message said:

Although the basic principle of accelerating all the way to the line
is simple, calculating when to go is far more complicated. It depends
upon the abilities of the riders in question, how tired they are, how
fast they are going at the moment vs. how far away they are from the
line at the moment. Lotta variables.

Quoted message said:

Hoste went from 150 meters today. Normally that's not too far out. Fly
in the ointment though. Look at this photo:

Quoted message said:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/apr07/rvv07/index.php?id=/phot...

Quoted message said:

It appears as if the entire finishing straight is slightly uphill.
That affects the calculations very significantly. If the finish were
flat, the 150 meters would have been fine for Hoste. But in an uphill,
it's much more difficult to maintain acceleration with gravity working
against you. Ballan got protection in the slipstream and Hoste's
acceleration petered out at the end.

Quoted message said:

Track racers understand how to ride that sort of finish very well -
it's Match Sprinting 101. Roadies not so much - they don't end up in
that situation so often and usually one of them makes a really dumb
move. Hoste's gotta be bummed. He should've waited another 20 meters
before going. He'll never forget this one.

Maybe. But there's also the factor that when two riders are out alone that
far for a long final sprint, one of them always ends up doing a lead out for
the other. That's my guess from the photo. The only other option is doing
a track stand and letting the pack pass you up.

Dumbass -

In match sprinting someone usually also leads out. As for the closing
pack - yes, that's yet another variable to add into the equation.

Another of many things that weren't mentioned is that in road
sprinting the lead rider doesn't have a turn where he/she can float.
There's also no banking to accelerate down for the follow rider. But,
despite the hundreds of differences that can be pointed out, the basic
underlying principles are the same.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Did you attend the University of I Know Everything About Bike Rides That
Take 6 Hours and 10 Minute?

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dumbasses -

In a 2 up sprint, the basic principle is simple: go from where you
know you can accelerate all the way to the line. If you're still
accelerating in the last meters, it's difficult to come around you
because the guy behind has to match your acceleration and put
something on top of it. By contrast, if the lead rider isn't
accelerating anymore, then all the rear rider has to do is accelerate
into the slipstream, then come out into the wind and go past.

Although the basic principle of accelerating all the way to the line
is simple, calculating when to go is far more complicated. It depends
upon the abilities of the riders in question, how tired they are, how
fast they are going at the moment vs. how far away they are from the
line at the moment. Lotta variables.

Hoste went from 150 meters today. Normally that's not too far out. Fly
in the ointment though. Look at this photo:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/apr07/rvv07/index.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/rvv07/fs005

It appears as if the entire finishing straight is slightly uphill.
That affects the calculations very significantly. If the finish were
flat, the 150 meters would have been fine for Hoste. But in an uphill,
it's much more difficult to maintain acceleration with gravity working
against you. Ballan got protection in the slipstream and Hoste's
acceleration petered out at the end.

Track racers understand how to ride that sort of finish very well -
it's Match Sprinting 101. Roadies not so much - they don't end up in
that situation so often and usually one of them makes a really dumb
move. Hoste's gotta be bummed. He should've waited another 20 meters
before going. He'll never forget this one.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Dumbasses -

dumbass,

the reason hoste lost was because he is a [censored]. last year he screwed
over his team to work for boonen and used his second place to leverage
a higher paying job on his old team. the year before he sat on
wesemann until wesemann squeezed his balls.

he sat on ballan, and of course i don't think you should pull through
because someone wants you too, his [censored] body language makes me
want to punch him in the head. *

he's not a winner, which is why he can be strong and still lose.

yeah, i'm glad ballan won.

*(also he may have sprinted for the wrong line)

email hidden said:

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Dumbasses -

dumbass,

the reason hoste lost was because he is a [censored]. last year he screwed
over his team to work for boonen and used his second place to leverage
a higher paying job on his old team. the year before he sat on
wesemann until wesemann squeezed his balls.

he sat on ballan, and of course i don't think you should pull through
because someone wants you too, his [censored] body language makes me
want to punch him in the head. *

he's not a winner, which is why he can be strong and still lose.

yeah, i'm glad ballan won.

*(also he may have sprinted for the wrong line)

Ballan was stronger, and maybe Hoste went too early.

I like this quote from Hoste's teammate Björn Leukemans
(in http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/apr07/apr09news)

"Hoste is like that; if he knows that he's faster, then he thinks he's
certain of the win"

--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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Quoted message said:

Dumbass -

In match sprinting someone usually also leads out. As for the closing
pack - yes, that's yet another variable to add into the equation.

Another of many things that weren't mentioned is that in road
sprinting the lead rider doesn't have a turn where he/she can float.
There's also no banking to accelerate down for the follow rider. But,
despite the hundreds of differences that can be pointed out, the basic
underlying principles are the same.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

The real reason that he lost is because the other rider reached the line
first. He was outsprinted. There were two riders and one first place. I
suffered from that too often, back-in-my-USCF-day.

On Apr 8, 9:45 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On 8 Apr 2007 18:30:19 -0700, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Dumbasses -

Quoted message said:

dumbass,

Quoted message said:

the reason hoste lost was because he is a [censored]. last year he screwed
over his team to work for boonen and used his second place to leverage
a higher paying job on his old team. the year before he sat on
wesemann until wesemann squeezed his balls.

Quoted message said:

he sat on ballan, and of course i don't think you should pull through
because someone wants you too, his [censored] body language makes me
want to punch him in the head. *

Quoted message said:

he's not a winner, which is why he can be strong and still lose.

Quoted message said:

yeah, i'm glad ballan won.

Quoted message said:

*(also he may have sprinted for the wrong line)

Ballan was stronger, and maybe Hoste went too early.

I like this quote from Hoste's teammate Björn Leukemans
(inhttp://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/apr07/apr09news)

"Hoste is like that; if he knows that he's faster, then he thinks he's
certain of the win"

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
****************************- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hoste started his sprint 25 meters too early.

Andre

Jeff Jones said:

It's definitely uphill (ridden it a few times) and I would imagine
it's fairly easy to misjudge. Hoste should have known better, having
twice finished second in a sprint there prior to today.

He's practising so he can become the next Zabel.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Dumbasses -

In a 2 up sprint, the basic principle is simple: go from where you
know you can accelerate all the way to the line. If you're still
accelerating in the last meters, it's difficult to come around you
because the guy behind has to match your acceleration and put
something on top of it. By contrast, if the lead rider isn't
accelerating anymore, then all the rear rider has to do is accelerate
into the slipstream, then come out into the wind and go past.

Although the basic principle of accelerating all the way to the line
is simple, calculating when to go is far more complicated. It depends
upon the abilities of the riders in question, how tired they are, how
fast they are going at the moment vs. how far away they are from the
line at the moment. Lotta variables.

Hoste went from 150 meters today. Normally that's not too far out. Fly
in the ointment though. Look at this photo:

No he didn't. He went from more than 200m. If he waited until 150m,
there was no way Ballan could return. Ballan chose a much bigger gear
than Hoste. That's why Hoste's acceleration made Ballan lose an
entire bike length. With the slightly uphill finish, it would have
been impossible for Ballan to get his gear going and to close that
gap.
Hoste chose the right gear, did a very explosive sprint but too early.

Kenny

Ballan made the move, did more of the work and was stronger in the
break, got sat on for most of the last K, and still one. Perhaps Hoste
would have won with a better timed sprint, but he didn't, and the best
man won.

Wayne

Kenny said:

Ballan chose a much bigger gear
than Hoste. That's why Hoste's acceleration made Ballan lose an
entire bike length. With the slightly uphill finish, it would have
been impossible for Ballan to get his gear going and to close that
gap.
Hoste chose the right gear, did a very explosive sprint but too early.

Speaking of big gears, it looked from the brief coverage on Versus
(USA TV) that Boonen might have been somewhat optimistic* as to gear
choice on the Mur. He just about stopped around the time Ballan went
around.

*Or very, by two or three teeth. Ouch, painful to watch. Was there an
equipment (derailleur) problem? --D-y

Quoted post said:

Kenny said:

Ballan chose a much bigger gear
than Hoste. That's why Hoste's acceleration made Ballan lose an
entire bike length. With the slightly uphill finish, it would have
been impossible for Ballan to get his gear going and to close that
gap.
Hoste chose the right gear, did a very explosive sprint but too early.

Speaking of big gears, it looked from the brief coverage on Versus
(USA TV) that Boonen might have been somewhat optimistic* as to gear
choice on the Mur. He just about stopped around the time Ballan went
around.

*Or very, by two or three teeth. Ouch, painful to watch. Was there an
equipment (derailleur) problem? --D-y

Kevin Hulsmans was chasing down the early breakaway for a long time,
helped by Johan Van Summeren (Predictor-Lotto), so he couldn't play a
role in the finale, neither. "Yes, we were defeated," he said. "It was
a really long day in the end. Tom Boonen came to a fall quite early in
the race and I assisted him the whole day. Tom's wrist was hurting and
he couldn't put pressure on it. Of course, the disappointment is great
- we would have liked to party here!"

Kenny said:

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Hoste went from 150 meters today. Normally that's not too far out. Fly
in the ointment though. Look at this photo:

No he didn't. He went from more than 200m.

Jackass -

No he didn't.

From:
http://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=2745

Alessandro Ballan (Lampre) pulled the last ounces of strength out of
his tired legs to come by Leif Hoste (Predictor-Lotto) in the closing
metres to win the Tour of Flanders. The Italian looked like he was
heading for another second place with Hoste glued to his wheel for the
final kilometre and a half. But when Hoste powered past with 150m to
go, Ballan managed to get behind the Belgian. Incredibly, he had
enough to go again in the last 20m to win by a wheel from the
disappointed Hoste.

<snip><end>

From:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/apr07/rvv07/?id=results

The duo went full-gas and fairly traded pulls over the final 16
kilometres from the Muur. Ballan was forced to lead over the final
kilometre, where the two went increasing slower while the chase closed
in at only a few seconds. At 150 metres, Hoste opened up his sprint on
Ballan's left, thinking he had enough to hold it to the line. But the
1.90m tall rider that usually leads out for Daniele Bennati kept on
his rival's wheel, finally coming around in the ten metres to steal
glory.

<snip><end>

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Kenny said:

On 8 apr, 19:52, "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hoste went from 150 meters today. Normally that's not too far out. Fly
in the ointment though. Look at this photo:

Quoted message said:

No he didn't. He went from more than 200m.

Jackass -

No he didn't.

From:http://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=2745

Asswipe -

Yes he did. Watch the footage instead of reading reports. I can
easily send you a frozen image that prooves it all.

Kenny said:

Kurgan Gringioni said:

On Apr 9, 6:53 am, "Kenny" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On 8 apr, 19:52, "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Hoste went from 150 meters today. Normally that's not too far out. Fly
> in the ointment though. Look at this photo:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No he didn't. He went from more than 200m.

Quoted message said:

Jackass -

Quoted message said:

No he didn't.

Quoted message said:

From:http://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=2745

Asswipe -

Yes he did. Watch the footage instead of reading reports. I can
easily send you a frozen image that prooves it all.

Dumbass -

I should believe you instead of them?

Hahahaha!

BTW, going from 200m in an uphill is even bigger tactical miscue.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Kenny said:

Kurgan Gringioni said:

On Apr 9, 6:53 am, "Kenny" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

> On 8 apr, 19:52, "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

> > Hoste went from 150 meters today. Normally that's not too far out. Fly
> > in the ointment though. Look at this photo:

Quoted message said:

> No he didn't. He went from more than 200m.

Quoted message said:

Jackass -

Quoted message said:

No he didn't.

Quoted message said:

From:http://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=2745

Asswipe -

Yes he did. Watch the footage instead of reading reports. I can
easily send you a frozen image that prooves it all.

Dumbass -

I should believe you instead of them?

Hahahaha!

BTW, going from 200m in an uphill is even bigger tactical miscue.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Work it out from here.

http://www.eurosport.co.uk/cycling/mcplayervideo_vid38376.shtml

Ballan was controlling it all the way - another 50m and he would have
led it out and Hoste would not have got round him. Excellent ride by
Ballan all the way in from the Muur.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Kenny said:

On 9 apr, 23:51, "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Apr 9, 6:53 am, "Kenny" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On 8 apr, 19:52, "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Hoste went from 150 meters today. Normally that's not too far out. Fly
> > in the ointment though. Look at this photo:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> No he didn't. He went from more than 200m.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jackass -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No he didn't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From:http://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=2745

Quoted message said:

Asswipe -

Quoted message said:

Yes he did. Watch the footage instead of reading reports. I can
easily send you a frozen image that prooves it all.

Dumbass -

I should believe you instead of them?

ofcourse. I have it on tape.

Quoted message said:

Hahahaha!

BTW, going from 200m in an uphill is even bigger tactical miscue.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -

- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -

I completely agree on this tactical miscue.