The Lumbar Arch Experience

Quoted message said:

Now you are perfectly horizontal, and flat. Feel that lumbar arch in your back?

Olivier Where is your head positioned when you do this exercise? Is it, chin on bed, nose down or
turned to side? I feel the most relaxed when my head is turned to the side. I feel tension in my
neck when my nose is forward -- which is akin to the position many people swim in.

I feel the most flat when my head is turned sideways. But I don't swim in any of these positions. A
closer simulation of the position in which I swim freestyle would be if i lay on my right side with
shoulders and hips "stacked" (but tilted perhaps 5-10 degrees toward my side) and with my right arm
extended, nose down, top of head leading and my right ear tucked closely against my right shoulder.
(Or substitute left for right above.) To more closely simulate, I'd need to be able to angle my
right hand down about 30 degrees from horizontal.

In each stroke cycle I'm in this position for most of each left-arm recovery, while I pass rapidly
through the prone position.

In this sidelying position, I don' t need to do anything with my lumbar arch to maintain my
position. Doing so would seem likely to deform the laser-like alignment I strive for.

And I pass through the prone position so quickly that there's simply no time to consciously recruit
and activate the muscles that would increase my lumbar arch. Nor any need, because I don't have to
"balance" in a prone position when passing through it so quickly.

Which may be why Larry and I differ on the efficacy of actively arching the back. In the kind of
swimming I teach and practice it wouldn't be practical or efficacious. If someone were to spend less
time in the side-balanced position and much of the stroke cycle more nearly prone, it might be.
That's my best guess anyway. Terry

"Totalswimm" wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now you are perfectly horizontal, and flat. Feel that lumbar arch in your back?

Olivier Where is your head positioned when you do this exercise? Is it, chin on bed, nose down or
turned to side? I feel the most relaxed when my head is turned to the side. I feel tension in my
neck when my nose is forward -- which is akin to the position many people swim in.

I feel the most flat when my head is turned sideways. But I don't swim in any of these
positions. A closer simulation of the position in which I swim freestyle would be if i lay on my
right side with shoulders and hips "stacked" (but tilted perhaps 5-10 degrees toward my side)
and with my right arm extended, nose down, top of head leading and my right ear tucked closely
against my right shoulder. (Or substitute left for right above.) To more closely simulate, I'd
need to be able to

angle

Quoted message said:

my right hand down about 30 degrees from horizontal.

In each stroke cycle I'm in this position for most of each left-arm recovery, while I pass rapidly
through the prone position.

In this sidelying position, I don' t need to do anything with my lumbar arch to maintain my
position. Doing so would seem likely to deform the laser-like alignment I strive for.

And I pass through the prone position so quickly that there's simply no time to consciously
recruit and activate the muscles that would increase my lumbar arch. Nor any need, because I don't
have to "balance" in a prone position when passing through it so quickly.

Which may be why Larry and I differ on the efficacy of actively arching the back. In the kind of
swimming I teach and practice it wouldn't be practical or efficacious. If someone were to spend
less time in the side-balanced position and much of the stroke cycle more nearly prone, it might
be. That's my best guess anyway. Terry

Larry, by his own admission, lacks flexibility. In _his_ experience he has concluded that "arching"
resolves the streamlining problem.

A flexible and articulated body, moves through the water without needing conscious stress on any
area of body. If a certain position has to be _held_ in swimming to be efficient, then it only
indicates that something is not right. There is no need to arch the back in swimming when a swimmer
can meld into the shape of the forces along the flow, naturally and effortlessly.

Shahin

Totalswimm wrote in a message

". . . if i lay on my right side with shoulders and hips "stacked" (but tilted perhaps 5-10 degrees
toward my side) and with my right arm extended, nose down, top of head leading and my right ear
tucked closely against my right shoulder. (Or substitute left for right above.) To more closely
simulate, I'd need to be able to angle my right hand down about 30 degrees from horizontal.

In each stroke cycle I'm in this position for most of each left-arm recovery, while I pass rapidly
through the prone position.

In this sidelying position, I don' t need to do anything with my lumbar arch to maintain my
position. Doing so would seem likely to deform the laser-like alignment I strive for."

Exactly.

This is precisely how I teach my swimmers to swim freestyle. This is the pattern I try to ingrain
from any early age. Few of our swimmers have flat strokes (when they race, a couple of my high
school sprinters might be considered flat compared to everyone else on the team), most swim exactly
as Terry has described. By the time they get to junior high I like to see that all critical "timing"
involving staying in the side-laying position for much of the stroke cycle and then snapping the
hips to quickly move to the other side. We call it driving the high hip down.

To those of you who would point at such a stroke and say "Ha! Masters swimmers' technique. REAL
swimmers don't swim that way." This is the way I teach age groupers, high schoolers, collegians, AND
masters to swim freestyle and they're all real swimmers. Each group (and, indeed, each individual)
develops this general stroke pattern a bit differently depending on their particular gifts. The
above IS the general pattern we prefer.

This style of freestyle emphasizes the body core as THE engine which drives the stroke. I believe
this emphasis has been one of the keys to my swimmers' success. Because they use more of their
muscle mass when they swim this way, they're able to actually stay smoother in the water. This may
seem to be a non sequitur at first glance. However, ponder this: the end result of having more
strength to apply to the water may not simply be the addition of power to the propulsive side of the
equation. Rather, it may be more important to the other side of the equation, where resistance is
minimized. Being strong allows the swimmer to execute complex sculling movements without struggling.
That heightened proficiency vastly reduces a swimmer's wave drag, the component of total drag that
has the greatest effect at race speeds.

As I say to my swimmers when they warm-up, "Slide and glide."

Regards,

Scott

[email hidden] (Totalswimm) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now you are perfectly horizontal, and flat. Feel that lumbar arch in your back?

Olivier Where is your head positioned when you do this exercise? Is it, chin on bed, nose down or
turned to side? I feel the most relaxed when my head is turned to the side. I feel tension in my
neck when my nose is forward -- which is akin to the position many people swim in.

I feel the most flat when my head is turned sideways. But I don't swim in any of these positions.
A closer simulation of the position in which I swim freestyle would be if i lay on my right side
with shoulders and hips "stacked" (but tilted perhaps 5-10 degrees toward my side) and with my
right arm extended, nose down, top of head leading and my right ear tucked closely against my
right shoulder. (Or substitute left for right above.) To more closely simulate, I'd need to be
able to angle my right hand down about 30 degrees from horizontal.

In each stroke cycle I'm in this position for most of each left-arm recovery, while I pass rapidly
through the prone position.

In this sidelying position, I don' t need to do anything with my lumbar arch to maintain my
position. Doing so would seem likely to deform the laser-like alignment I strive for.

And I pass through the prone position so quickly that there's simply no time to consciously
recruit and activate the muscles that would increase my lumbar arch. Nor any need, because I don't
have to "balance" in a prone position when passing through it so quickly.

Which may be why Larry and I differ on the efficacy of actively arching the back. In the kind of
swimming I teach and practice it wouldn't be practical or efficacious. If someone were to spend
less time in the side-balanced position and much of the stroke cycle more nearly prone, it might
be. That's my best guess anyway. Terry

A picture is worth a thousand words, which makes a video worth ... I don't know how much. There is a
short video clip on the site below of a frestyle technique which I think is exactly what Terry is
describing. Click on the link called "Don Walsh" in the freestyle section.

goswim.tvvideoarch.htmlOpen ↗

Eric

[email hidden] (Scott Lemley) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Totalswimm wrote in a message This is precisely how I teach my swimmers to swim freestyle. This is
the pattern I try to ingrain from any early age. Few of our swimmers have flat strokes (when they
race, a couple of my high school sprinters might be considered flat compared to everyone else on
the team), most swim exactly as Terry has described. By the time they get to junior high I like to
see that all critical "timing" involving staying in the side-laying position for much of the
stroke cycle and then snapping the hips to quickly move to the other side. We call it driving the
high hip down.

To those of you who would point at such a stroke and say "Ha! Masters swimmers' technique. REAL
swimmers don't swim that way." This is the way I teach age groupers, high schoolers, collegians,
AND masters to swim freestyle and they're all real swimmers. Each group (and, indeed, each
individual) develops this general stroke pattern a bit differently depending on their particular
gifts. The above IS the general pattern we prefer.

This style of freestyle emphasizes the body core as THE engine which drives the stroke. I believe
this emphasis has been one of the keys to my swimmers' success. Because they use more of their
muscle mass when they swim this way, they're able to actually stay smoother in the water. This may
seem to be a non sequitur at first glance. However, ponder this: the end result of having more
strength to apply to the water may not simply be the addition of power to the propulsive side of
the equation. Rather, it may be more important to the other side of the equation, where resistance
is minimized. Being strong allows the swimmer to execute complex sculling movements without
struggling. That heightened proficiency vastly reduces a swimmer's wave drag, the component of
total drag that has the greatest effect at race speeds.

As I say to my swimmers when they warm-up, "Slide and glide."

Regards,

Scott

I've spent many hours analyzing video downloaded from the web of elite swimmers, as well as the best
Masters swimmers in my pool.

What you describe above is how the best Masters swimmers in my pool swim. Side lying position in
which they seem to glide forever, deep arm catch with relatively straight elbow, single beat kick at
the end of the pull, and wham!, quickly transition to the other side and their body squirts forward
at high speed. Hips and speedo are BELOW the surface of the water. No dry lycra.

However, this paradigm does not seem to be how the elites do it. Most are much flatter in the water,
particularly at the shorter distances. And busy kicks.

So what are we to make of this - is it useless to emulate the elites? Maybe so.

Eric

On 16 Dec 2003 00:29:14 -0800, [email hidden] (Olivier)

Quoted message said:

A very simple experience (might not work for obese people!).

Lay in your bed, on the belly. Wait a few minutes. Now you are perfectly horizontal, and flat. Feel
that lumbar arch in your back? This is how you should feel when swimming. Feeling arch shaped, but
being flat...

-- Olivier

I'm not 100% sure this is a good comparison at all. When one is laying on a bet or just
about any solid surface, different pressure is appilied to different portions of the body.
This is unlike the buoyancy of water that presses nearly equally on all surfaces and
conforms to that surface. This also does not take into account that certain portions of the
body, namely the legs, would continue downward and must be held up by some force other than
the water pushing up on it.

~Matt

4precious said:

Terry wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Which may be why Larry and I differ on the efficacy of actively arching the back. In the kind of
swimming I teach and practice it wouldn't be practical or efficacious. If someone were to spend
less time in the side-balanced position and much of the stroke cycle more nearly prone, it might
be. That's my best guess anyway. Terry

A picture is worth a thousand words, which makes a video worth ... I don't know how much. There is
a short video clip on the site below of a frestyle technique which I think is exactly what Terry
is describing. Click on the link called "Don Walsh" in the freestyle section.

goswim.tvvideoarch.htmlOpen ↗

Eric

The swimmer that demonstrates "Flip turn sequence" does it better (near the end of the clip). The
arms of the other swimmer (Don Walsh) reach too far towards the bottom of the pool (they go outside
of the "hole" through which he must swim), and are not articulated/coordinated/smooth enough. Popov
remains the best example.

Shahin

[email hidden] (Olivier) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Now you are perfectly horizontal, and flat. Feel that lumbar arch in your back? This is how you
should feel when swimming. Feeling arch shaped, but being flat...

But, a bit BUT, almost all freestylers do not spend their time swimming in the flat or in the prone
position. They are rolling from side to side, or in TI parlance, snapping their hips and shifting
their weight from side to side. The hips are indeed the engine that drive the propellers (arms).
When I swim, the only tension THAT I AM CONSCIOUS OF is the snap of my hips and that all-important
resistance of the water against my forearm and hand when they are in the catch position and I am
trying to hold on to that place in the water as I squirt past it.

There are many things I focus on when I swim and my lumbar arch is not one of them. The only times I
think about it is when I'm doing squats and deadlifts in the gym.

Bill

Totalswimm wrote in a message

"Don is a TI coach and was my inspiration for swimming around Manhattan. He can swim for hours at
7-8spl in a 25 yard pool and is a super-successful open water racer in the 50+ age group..."

Hi Terry. Don's an animal. Do I understand you to say he can maintain 7-8 spl (strokes per length)
aka 4 cycles/length? Or is 7-8 spl short for stroke cycles per length? Our seniors have been
spending the majority of their time, when swimming freestyle anyway, holding 6 cpl (cycles per
length), or 12 strokes per length. I find this compels most of them to hold a lot of water when
they swim.

Regards,

Scott

[email hidden] (Bill) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Olivier) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Now you are perfectly horizontal, and flat. Feel that lumbar arch in your back? This is how you
should feel when swimming. Feeling arch shaped, but being flat...

But, a bit BUT, almost all freestylers do not spend their time swimming in the flat or in the
prone position. They are rolling from side to side, or in TI parlance, snapping their hips and
shifting their weight from side to side.

Actually Bill, based on countless hours studying elite swimming video, I would say most top swimmers
swim very much on their stomachs. They swim quite flat in the water with high elbow catch on the
breathing side, and high or low elbow catch on the non-breathing side. They do often roll quite a
bit when they breath, and this would be a classic side balance position, but they rarely roll
significantly to the breathing side. If interested, go to Donald Graft's site and check out videos
of Pieter VDH, Thorpe, Phelps, and Hackett. Those men all have big kicks, but others, such as
Kowalski and Bennett have small kicks but do not rotate much.

With that swimming style, lower lumbar arch is crucial to maintaining a rigid aquatic bodyline which
drives through the water, and can keep the hips elevated with minimal kick if desired.

Eric

"Scott Lemley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Totalswimm wrote in a message

"Don is a TI coach and was my inspiration for swimming around Manhattan. He can swim for hours at
7-8spl in a 25 yard pool and is a super-successful open water racer in the 50+ age group..."

Hi Terry. Don's an animal. Do I understand you to say he can maintain 7-8 spl (strokes per length)
aka 4 cycles/length? Or is 7-8 spl short for stroke cycles per length? Our seniors have been
spending the majority of their time, when swimming freestyle anyway, holding 6 cpl (cycles per
length), or 12 strokes per length. I find this compels most of them to hold a lot of water when
they swim.

if that is accurate, i find it absolutely incredible, (especially judging by his size in that video
clip)...that comes close to about 3 yards per stroke, with an average push....

[email hidden] (Scott Lemley) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

We call it driving the high hip down.

Pardon my French, but this s_ _ _ really works!

I was in the middle of our "Big Wednesday" set about an hour ago. It consisted of: 1x500, 4x50
1x400, 4x50 1x300, 4x50 (negative split the 3) 1x200, 4x50 (fast 2) 1x100, 4x50 (sprint the 1)

I was concentrating as usual on arm pull: hand down and out during the catch, sweep in, try hard to
finish strong and flick the water. Totally fatigued half way through the set, so I said, well, let's
try this Lemley thing.

Eureka! worked like a champ. I've been at this swimming thing for 18 months now. The whole anchor
your hand and pivot the hips didn't make much sense to me when I first tried it a while ago. Maybe
I've just gotten much fitter overall so I can appreciate it.

Instead of thinking about my arm pull, (which will erroneously start your propulsion with your arm),
I just kind of let my hand fall to a catch position somewhere down and out of my body line, and then
concentrated on starting the propulsion by driving the upper hip down. Just let the pulling arm find
it's own natural "S" pattern without worrying about it too much. It will naturally sweep in towards
your body, and then easily out since you've gotten your hip out of the way. I found myself thinking
more about the non-propulsion arm - hip down and shoot the arm on the same side forward.

It's a tad subtle. It's not like baseball where everyone in the stadium can see the pitcher open up
his hips and "drop and drive" during his motion to engage his kinetic change and hurl the baseball.
But it can be done. The hips have to start first! Probably only a fraction of a second before the
arm. Your arms don't have to be strong to sweep through the water, they have to be strong to
maintain positions where they create lots of drag (i.e. propulsion) while your hips and shoulder
rotate and pull on them.

thanks for the tip, Eric

[email hidden] (Larry Weisenthal) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

1. I am in complete agreement that the average adult swimmer (or any sub-elite swimmer) may
realize of lot of gain from pretending that the hips are the conductor of the orchestra and
having the hips lead the stroke. This is step 2 in Larry's "how to swim better" syllabus.

Anybody who's read a TI literature can say the same. What you say is straight from the TI textbook,
although their book explains it much better.

Quoted message said:

The problem with many sub-elite swimmers is that the hips follow the shoulders. It should be an
actual coil. The shoulders rotate much more than the hips (like Tiger Woods' golf swing). It is
not the rolling log epitomized by "TI." The shoulders should rotate substantially more than the
hips. But the coil should BEGIN with the hips. The hips lead the stroke. Again, this is lesson
number 2.

Again, it's the "which-came-first-the-chicken-or-the-egg" situation. Is the arch the cause or the
effect? Have you actually talked to an elite swimmer who's told you they've consciously maintained
that lumbar arch?

Quoted message said:

Terry can argue all of this until the cows come in. I am supremely comfortable, knowing that an
arched back allows you to lift your head (and your arms) all you want, without the need to spend
countless hours doing balancing drills. Knowing that all the really good swimmers keep their butts
on the surface of the water and have great lumbar tone. Developed by kickboard training, butterfly
swimming, and underwater dolphining.

You are supremely pompous (pardon my being frank) having convinced yourself that your "theory" from
a few months ago is now fact. What made the change?

[email hidden] (Scott Lemley) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Totalswimm wrote in a message

"Don is a TI coach and was my inspiration for swimming around Manhattan. He can swim for hours at
7-8spl in a 25 yard pool and is a super-successful open water racer in the 50+ age group..."

Hi Terry. Don's an animal. Do I understand you to say he can maintain 7-8 spl (strokes per length)
aka 4 cycles/length? Or is 7-8 spl short for stroke cycles per length? Our seniors have been
spending the majority of their time, when swimming freestyle anyway, holding 6 cpl (cycles per
length), or 12 strokes per length. I find this compels most of them to hold a lot of water when
they swim.

Regards,

Scott

He clearly means arm pulls, not cycles. If by "7-8" he meant cycles, that would be 14 to 16 arm
pulls. Heck, even I can do that .... 🙂

Eric

On 16 Dec 2003 00:29:14 -0800,

(Olivier) said:

Lay in your bed, on the belly. Wait a few minutes. Now you are perfectly horizontal, and flat.

How about my version?

Stand on stepladder, look up while you screw furring into ceiling joists and check with a 54" level.
It struck me that this is the same position being touted here for swimming. Do this for three days.

Quoted message said:

Feel that lumbar arch in your back?

Oh yeah, my lower back and my neck are really sore.

Quoted message said:

This is how you should feel when swimming. Feeling arch shaped, but being flat...

If I felt that way while swimming, I'd take up golf.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)