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The Italian scandal

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Road Cycling
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16 June 2004
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pedalchick
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  1. It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is overshadowing something even more serious - a doping scandal with some actualy proof?
    From Eurosport (I'm not going to be pretentious and post it in French...)

    ___________________
    Recorded telephone conversations most likely relating the use of EPO by prominent Italian riders of the Saeco, Domina Vacanze, and Fassa Bortolo teams have been leaked to French newspaper Le Monde. The evidence, which most notably points the finger at Eddy Mazzoleni, room-mate of recent Giro winner Damiano Cunego.

    Among the riders indicted at the end of last month in what Italian police have labeled "Operation Oil for Drugs" are Mazzoleni, and Saeco team-mates Danilo Di Luca and Alessandro Spezialetti.

    At the heart of the investigation is Carlo Santuccione, who presents himself as a "simple family doctor," but who's known inside the peloton as "Ali the Chemist" for his dubious reputation.

    Santuccione has been charged with "prescribing and adminstering performance-enhancing drugs outside of any therapeutic context and of having given advice on how to take the medication with the sole purpose of avoiding that the substances be identified in an eventual doping test."

    "IF NOT FOR THE GIRO, THEN FOR THE TOUR"

    In a transcript of a hidden microphone conversation in Santuccione's office published in Wednesday's edition of Le Monde, Mazzoleni expressed worry to the doctor last April 27:

    "I spoke with Danilo [Di Luca] because for Sunday, I've made 4,000 units in subcutaneous... and I'm riding Saturday... Saturday, there won't be any problems?," Mazzoleni says on the tape.

    "It's most probably Erythropoietin [EPO] precribed by Santuccione," an investigator tells Le Monde.

    The rider then talks about trying to obtain a new kind of EPO available only in the United States.

    "We should maybe bring it in through England or Spain, tomorrow my girlfriend's coming up, and then there's the accountant, we should be able to do it," Mazzoleni tells Santuccione before adding "Above all, if you're not successful for the Giro, then for the Tour [de France]... "

    NO DECISION FROM THE TOUR

    Other riders implicated in the scandal include Fassa Bortolo sprint king Alessandro Petacchi's team-mate Fabio Sacchi and two team-mates of 2002 world champion Mario Cipollini.

    Domina Vacanze have suspended Mario Scirea and Alessandro Galletti. Calls intercepted on Galletti's cellphone have enabled authorities to uncover a supply network of blood transfusion bags.

    Saeco and Fassa Bortolo have so far taken no measure against their indicted riders.

    Organisers of the Tour de France, reached by eurosport.com on Wednesday said no decision had been taken so far on an eventual suspension of the three Italian teams involved in the scandal.

    Earlier this year, the Tour excluded Kelme following the doping revelations of former rider Jesus Manzano while French team Cofidis is back in the peloton after a hiatus due to a major drugs scandal in France.

  2. pedalchick said:

    It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is overshadowing
    something even more serious - a doping scandal with some
    actualy proof? From Eurosport (I'm not going to be
    pretentious and post it in French...)

    This is what I call a troll. What if I post some allegations
    that your hubby/boyfriend is a [censored]?

  3. "Davide Tosi" wrote ...

    Quoted message said:


    This is what I call a troll. What if I post some
    allegations that your hubby/boyfriend is a [censored]?

    You're what I call a [censored].

  4. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by Davide Tosi

    Bpedalchick said:

    It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is overshadowing
    something even more serious - a doping scandal with some
    actualy proof? From Eurosport (I'm not going to be
    pretentious and post it in French...)

    This is what I call a troll. What if I post some allegations
    that your hubby/boyfriend is a [censored]? [/B]

    last I checked he didn't look like a bundle of twigs, but thanks for confirming my rec.bicycles.[censored] theory.
    I admit I am retarded because I use cyclingforums, but at least I don't yell "Troll! *PLONK*" at every post.

  5. "pedalchick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is overshadowing
    something even more serious - a doping scandal with some
    actualy proof? From Eurosport (I'm not going to be
    pretentious and post it in French...)

    I find it interesting that non-lawyers seem to not
    understand the nature of proof that can be offered at trial.
    Phone taps are very credible evidence if there is a proper
    foundation for admission and the statements in them are no
    ambiguous. A person can testify as to matters that occurred
    in their presence and may even testify as to certain things
    said by another, e.g., admissions against interest. In the
    case of testimony, the issue becomes the credibility of the
    witness. Demeanor counts heavily but supporting
    documentation can also help. Circumstantial evidence cases
    are often the strongest and most compelling while so-called
    eye witness cases are often the weakest.

    Turning to the allegations of Emma O'Reilly as one person in
    Walsh's book, one would question her motivation for speaking
    to Walsh. Was money paid? Or is the motive something else?
    Can her allgeations be supported by records of border
    crossings into Spain, tesitmony from people met in Spain,
    etc. If the matter goes to trial, Armstrong will be called
    to testify. What is his motive to falsify? An estimated $16
    million a year in endorsements at risk could be a motivator
    that would bring his credibility into question. One thing I
    can tell you, having been a trial attorney, is that no
    matter how well you prep your witness, trials rarely go
    according to a script and there are times when your witness
    is on the stand being picked apart making the lawyer wish
    they had gone into shoe sales. It's happened to every lawyer
    who's tried a case.

    I have to think that the Times lawyers have done their
    homework. It's going to be a very interesting case.

  6. Quoted message said:

    What if I post some allegations that your
    hubby/boyfriend is a


    [censored]?

    I would ask how you found that out.

    "Davide Tosi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    pedalchick said:

    It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is
    overshadowing


    something

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    even more serious - a doping scandal with some actualy
    proof? From Eurosport (I'm not going to be pretentious
    and post it in


    French...)

    Quoted message said:


    This is what I call a troll. What if I post some
    allegations that your hubby/boyfriend is a


    [censored]?

  7. "pedalchick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Davide Tosi said:
    pedalchick said:

    It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is
    overshadowing something even more serious - a doping
    scandal with some actualy proof? From Eurosport (I'm
    not going to be pretentious and post it in French...)


    This is what I call a troll. What if I post some
    allegations that your hubby/boyfriend is a [censored]?

    last I checked he didn't look like a bundle of twigs, but
    thanks for confirming my rec.bicycles.[censored] theory. I
    admit I am retarded because I use cyclingforums, but at
    least I don't yell "Troll! *PLONK*" at every post.

    What the next big race on your calender? Just curious, did
    you post the philly report on your website yet? I was
    interested in reading it. I have a friend who is sending me
    a video of Philly, hopefully with the womens coverage.

    B-

  8. pedalchick said:

    I admit I am retarded because I use cyclingforums

    There ya go, first step. Need help for next step?

  9. "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "pedalchick" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is
    overshadowing something even more serious - a doping
    scandal with some actualy proof? From Eurosport (I'm not
    going to be pretentious and post it in French...)

    I find it interesting that non-lawyers seem to not
    understand the nature


    of

    Quoted message said:

    proof that can be offered at trial. Phone taps are very
    credible evidence if there is a proper foundation for
    admission and the statements in them


    are

    Quoted message said:

    no ambiguous. A person can testify as to matters that
    occurred in their presence and may even testify as to
    certain things said by another, e.g., admissions against
    interest. In the case of testimony, the issue becomes the
    credibility of the witness. Demeanor counts heavily but
    supporting documentation can also help. Circumstantial
    evidence cases are often the strongest and most compelling
    while so-called eye witness cases are often the weakest.

    Turning to the allegations of Emma O'Reilly as one person
    in Walsh's book, one would question her motivation for
    speaking to Walsh. Was money paid? Or is the motive
    something else? Can her allgeations be supported by
    records of border crossings into Spain, tesitmony from
    people met in


    Spain,

    Quoted message said:

    etc. If the matter goes to trial, Armstrong will be called
    to testify.


    What

    Quoted message said:

    is his motive to falsify? An estimated $16 million a year
    in endorsements at risk could be a motivator that would
    bring his credibility into


    question.

    Quoted message said:

    One thing I can tell you, having been a trial attorney, is
    that no matter how well you prep your witness, trials
    rarely go according to a script and there are times when
    your witness is on the stand being picked apart


    making

    Quoted message said:

    the lawyer wish they had gone into shoe sales. It's
    happened to every lawyer who's tried a case.

    I have to think that the Times lawyers have done their
    homework. It's


    going

    Quoted message said:

    to be a very interesting case.

    Brian, do you get any work done in your office during the
    month of July?

  10. Generally, yes. From about 5 a.m. until OLN starts its daily
    coverage. Then from after lunch until around 5 p.m. It's
    more work that all of France combined during July.

    "Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7Oqdnf_XL8Pw8U3dRVn-
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:lS-
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "pedalchick" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is
    overshadowing something even more serious - a doping
    scandal with some actualy proof? From Eurosport (I'm
    not going to be pretentious and post it in French...)

    I find it interesting that non-lawyers seem to not
    understand the nature


    of

    Quoted message said:

    proof that can be offered at trial. Phone taps are very
    credible


    evidence

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    if there is a proper foundation for admission and the
    statements in them


    are

    Quoted message said:

    no ambiguous. A person can testify as to matters that
    occurred in their presence and may even testify as to
    certain things said by another,


    e.g.,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    admissions against interest. In the case of testimony,
    the issue


    becomes

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the credibility of the witness. Demeanor counts heavily
    but supporting documentation can also help.
    Circumstantial evidence cases are often


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    strongest and most compelling while so-called eye
    witness cases are


    often

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the weakest.

    Turning to the allegations of Emma O'Reilly as one
    person in Walsh's


    book,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    one would question her motivation for speaking to Walsh.
    Was money


    paid?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Or is the motive something else? Can her allgeations be
    supported by records of border crossings into Spain,
    tesitmony from people met in


    Spain,

    Quoted message said:

    etc. If the matter goes to trial, Armstrong will be
    called to testify.


    What

    Quoted message said:

    is his motive to falsify? An estimated $16 million a
    year in


    endorsements

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    at risk could be a motivator that would bring his
    credibility into


    question.

    Quoted message said:

    One thing I can tell you, having been a trial attorney,
    is that no


    matter

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    how well you prep your witness, trials rarely go
    according to a script


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    there are times when your witness is on the stand being
    picked apart


    making

    Quoted message said:

    the lawyer wish they had gone into shoe sales. It's
    happened to every lawyer who's tried a case.

    I have to think that the Times lawyers have done their
    homework. It's


    going

    Quoted message said:

    to be a very interesting case.

    Brian, do you get any work done in your office during the
    month of July?

  11. B. Lafferty said:

    Generally, yes. From about 5 a.m. until OLN starts its
    daily coverage. Then from after lunch until around 5 p.m.
    It's more work that all of France combined during July.

    I understand there's not much work done in
    August either...

    Steve

    Quoted message said:

    --
    Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS dentaltwins.comdentaltwins.com
    Brooklyn, NY

  12. pedalchick <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Davide Tosi said:
    pedalchick said:

    It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is
    overshadowing something even more serious - a doping
    scandal with some actualy proof? From Eurosport (I'm
    not going to be pretentious and post it in French...)


    This is what I call a troll. What if I post some
    allegations that your hubby/boyfriend is a [censored]?

    last I checked he didn't look like a bundle of twigs, but
    thanks for confirming my rec.bicycles.[censored] theory.

    uhh, look who you're dealing with.

  13. pedalchick said:

    At the heart of the investigation is Carlo Santuccione,
    who presents himself as a "simple family doctor," but
    who's known inside the peloton as "Ali the Chemist" for
    his dubious reputation.

    I was wondering what Chemical Ali was up to these days.

  14. pedalchick <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Davide Tosi said:
    pedalchick said:

    It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is
    overshadowing something even more serious - a doping
    scandal with some actualy proof? From Eurosport (I'm
    not going to be pretentious and post it in French...)


    This is what I call a troll. What if I post some
    allegations that your hubby/boyfriend is a [censored]?

    last I checked he didn't look like a bundle of twigs, but
    thanks for confirming my rec.bicycles.[censored] theory. I
    admit I am retarded because I use cyclingforums, but at
    least I don't yell "Troll! *PLONK*" at every post.


    So she posts something from Eurosport, and it's a troll??
    I don't get it? Isn't that information from a news
    service about something we all love to talk about?
    Doping. I mean just because it's not about Lance doesn't
    make it any less pertinent. And Pedalchick's husband is
    not a bundle of twigs.

    Tom

  15. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by Sierraman
    "pedalchick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Davide Tosi said:
    pedalchick said:

    It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is
    overshadowing something even more serious - a doping
    scandal with some actualy proof? From Eurosport (I'm
    not going to be pretentious and post it in French...)


    This is what I call a troll. What if I post some
    allegations that your hubby/boyfriend is a [censored]?

    last I checked he didn't look like a bundle of twigs, but
    thanks for confirming my rec.bicycles.[censored] theory. I
    admit I am retarded because I use cyclingforums, but at
    least I don't yell "Troll! *PLONK*" at every post.



    What the next big race on your calender? Just curious, did
    you post the philly report on your website yet? I was
    interested in reading it. I have a friend who is sending me
    a video of Philly, hopefully with the womens coverage.

    B-

    DP posted the report today.
    I saw the tape of the coverage, and it's pretty weak as usual, but you can see my teammate come blasting out of the pack only to have the Nuremberger train sweep from left to right, cutting off her path. And, heartbreakingly, she has to quit pedaling and LvG nips past to take the last podium spot!!! bummer.

  16. "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "pedalchick" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is
    overshadowing something even more serious - a doping
    scandal with some actualy proof? From Eurosport (I'm not
    going to be pretentious and post it in French...)

    I find it interesting that non-lawyers seem to not
    understand the nature of proof that can be offered at
    trial. Phone taps are very credible evidence if there is a
    proper foundation for admission and the statements in them
    are no ambiguous. A person can testify as to matters that
    occurred in their presence and may even testify as to
    certain things said by another, e.g., admissions against
    interest. In the case of testimony, the issue becomes the
    credibility of the witness. Demeanor counts heavily but
    supporting documentation can also help. Circumstantial
    evidence cases are often the strongest and most compelling
    while so-called eye witness cases are often the weakest.

    Which is what nearly every Judge and Prosecutor claim at
    every trial where the vast majority of the evidence is
    circumstantial rather than direct. Pretty much common sense.

    Just like presenting your broken bike frame at a trial where
    you're suing some inbred redneck for running you over.

    If there is no eye witness(es) other than yourself and the
    redneck, then you have to show all the circumstantial
    evidence apparently caused by the reckless and negligent
    driver in a civil case.

    Quoted message said:

    Turning to the allegations of Emma O'Reilly as one person
    in Walsh's book, one would question her motivation for
    speaking to Walsh. Was money paid? Or is the motive
    something else? Can her allgeations be supported by
    records of border crossings into Spain, tesitmony from
    people met in Spain, etc. If the matter goes to trial,
    Armstrong will be called to testify. What is his motive to
    falsify? An estimated $16 million a year in endorsements
    at risk could be a motivator that would bring his
    credibility into question. One thing I can tell you,
    having been a trial attorney, is that no matter how well
    you prep your witness, trials rarely go according to a
    script and there are times when your witness is on the
    stand being picked apart making the lawyer wish they had
    gone into shoe sales. It's happened to every lawyer who's
    tried a case.

    I have to think that the Times lawyers have done their
    homework. It's going to be a very interesting case.

  17. Amit said:


    pedalchick <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Davide Tosi said:

    pedalchick <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is
    >overshadowing something even more serious - a
    >doping scandal with some actualy proof? From
    >Eurosport (I'm not going to be pretentious and post
    >it in French...)
    This is what I call a troll. What if I post some
    allegations that your hubby/boyfriend is a [censored]?

    last I checked he didn't look like a bundle of twigs,
    but thanks for confirming my rec.bicycles.[censored]
    theory.

    uhh, look who you're dealing with.

    hey, that post at least had a sorta dialogue with
    pedalchick going, unlike this example- google.c-google.c-
    om/groups?&selm=3b53901b.240826690%40news.cis.dfn.de things
    are looking up.

    hh

  18. "pedalchick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Sierraman said:

    "pedalchick" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message


    news:L4Z-

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    [email hidden]:L4Zzc.46108$187.37267@fe11-

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    .usenetserver.com...

    Quoted message said:

    Davide Tosi wrote:
    > pedalchick <[email hidden]>
    > wrote:
    > >It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is
    > >overshadowing something even more serious - a
    > >doping scandal with some


    actualy

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > >proof? From Eurosport (I'm not going to be
    > >pretentious and post it in French...)
    > This is what I call a troll. What if I post some
    > allegations


    that

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > your hubby/boyfriend is a [censored]?

    last I checked he didn't look like a bundle of
    twigs, but thanks for confirming my
    rec.bicycles.[censored] theory. I admit I am retarded
    because I use cyclingforums, but at least I don't
    yell "Troll! *PLONK*" at every post.


    What the next big race on your calender? Just curious,
    did you post


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    philly report on your website yet? I was interested in
    reading it. I have a friend who is sending me a video
    of Philly, hopefully with the womens coverage. B-

    DP posted the report today. I saw the tape of the
    coverage, and it's pretty weak as usual, but you can see
    my teammate come blasting out of the pack only to have the
    Nuremberger train sweep from left to right, cutting off
    her path. And, heartbreakingly, she has to quit pedaling
    and LvG nips past to take the last podium spot!!! bummer.

    Dotsie Cowden had pink flowers in her hair? Dam, I wish you
    could post a photo of that!

  19. pedalchick said:

    In a transcript of a hidden microphone conversation in
    Santuccione's office published in Wednesday's edition of
    Le Monde, Mazzoleni expressed worry to the doctor last
    April 27:

    "I spoke with Danilo [Di Luca] because for Sunday, I've
    made 4,000 units in subcutaneous... and I'm riding
    Saturday... Saturday, there won't be any problems?,"
    Mazzoleni says on the tape.

    43rd Rund um den Henninger Turm - 1.1/1.7.1 Germany,
    May 1, 2004

    Results - 205 km 1 Karsten Kroon (Ned) Rabobank 5.21.10 2
    Danilo Hondo (Ger) Gerolsteiner 3 Johan Coenen (Bel) MrBookmaker.com-
    Palmans 4 Gregory Rast (Swi) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.03 5
    Torsten Schmidt (Ger) Gerolsteiner 0.06 6 Björn Leukemans
    (Bel) MrBookmaker.com-Palmans 0.28 7 Erik Zabel (Ger) T-
    Mobile Team 8 Marcus Zberg (Swi) Gerolsteiner 9 Eddy
    Mazzoleni (Ita) Saeco

    only 35 finishers.

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