The Italian scandal

It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is overshadowing something
even more serious - a doping scandal with some actualy proof? From
Eurosport (I'm not going to be pretentious and post it in French...)

___________________
Recorded telephone conversations most likely relating the use of EPO by
prominent Italian riders of the Saeco, Domina Vacanze, and Fassa Bortolo
teams have been leaked to French newspaper Le Monde. The evidence, which
most notably points the finger at Eddy Mazzoleni, room-mate of recent
Giro winner Damiano Cunego.

Among the riders indicted at the end of last month in what Italian
police have labeled "Operation Oil for Drugs" are Mazzoleni, and Saeco
team-mates Danilo Di Luca and Alessandro Spezialetti.

At the heart of the investigation is Carlo Santuccione, who presents
himself as a "simple family doctor," but who's known inside the peloton
as "Ali the Chemist" for his dubious reputation.

Santuccione has been charged with "prescribing and adminstering performance-
enhancing drugs outside of any therapeutic context and of having given
advice on how to take the medication with the sole purpose of avoiding
that the substances be identified in an eventual doping test."

"IF NOT FOR THE GIRO, THEN FOR THE TOUR"

In a transcript of a hidden microphone conversation in Santuccione's
office published in Wednesday's edition of Le Monde, Mazzoleni expressed
worry to the doctor last April 27:

"I spoke with Danilo [Di Luca] because for Sunday, I've made 4,000 units
in subcutaneous... and I'm riding Saturday... Saturday, there won't be
any problems?," Mazzoleni says on the tape.

"It's most probably Erythropoietin [EPO] precribed by Santuccione," an
investigator tells Le Monde.

The rider then talks about trying to obtain a new kind of EPO available
only in the United States.

"We should maybe bring it in through England or Spain, tomorrow my
girlfriend's coming up, and then there's the accountant, we should be
able to do it," Mazzoleni tells Santuccione before adding "Above all, if
you're not successful for the Giro, then for the Tour [de France]... "

NO DECISION FROM THE TOUR

Other riders implicated in the scandal include Fassa Bortolo sprint king
Alessandro Petacchi's team-mate Fabio Sacchi and two team-mates of 2002
world champion Mario Cipollini.

Domina Vacanze have suspended Mario Scirea and Alessandro Galletti.
Calls intercepted on Galletti's cellphone have enabled authorities to
uncover a supply network of blood transfusion bags.

Saeco and Fassa Bortolo have so far taken no measure against their
indicted riders.

Organisers of the Tour de France, reached by eurosport.com on Wednesday
said no decision had been taken so far on an eventual suspension of the
three Italian teams involved in the scandal.

Earlier this year, the Tour excluded Kelme following the doping
revelations of former rider Jesus Manzano while French team Cofidis
is back in the peloton after a hiatus due to a major drugs scandal
in France.

--

"Davide Tosi" wrote ...

Quoted message said:

This is what I call a troll.
What if I post some allegations that your hubby/boyfriend is a [censored]?

You're what I call a [censored].

Davide Tosi said:

pedalchick said:

It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is overshadowing something
even more serious - a doping scandal with some actualy proof? From
Eurosport (I'm not going to be pretentious and post it in French...)

This is what I call a troll. What if I post some allegations that your
hubby/boyfriend is a [censored]?

last I checked he didn't look like a bundle of twigs, but thanks for
confirming my rec.bicycles.[censored] theory. I admit I am retarded
because I use cyclingforums, but at least I don't yell "Troll! *PLONK*"
at every post.

--

"pedalchick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Davide Tosi said:

pedalchick said:

It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is overshadowing something
even more serious - a doping scandal with some actualy proof? From
Eurosport (I'm not going to be pretentious and post it in French...)

This is what I call a troll. What if I post some allegations that your
hubby/boyfriend is a [censored]?

last I checked he didn't look like a bundle of twigs, but thanks for
confirming my rec.bicycles.[censored] theory. I admit I am retarded
because I use cyclingforums, but at least I don't yell "Troll! *PLONK*"
at every post.

What the next big race on your calender? Just curious, did you post the
philly report on your website yet? I was interested in reading it. I have a
friend who is sending me a video of Philly, hopefully with the womens
coverage.

B-

pedalchick said:

I admit I am retarded because I use cyclingforums

There ya go, first step. Need help for next step?

Quoted message said:

What if I post some allegations that your hubby/boyfriend is a

[censored]?

I would ask how you found that out.

"Davide Tosi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

pedalchick said:

It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is overshadowing

something

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

even more serious - a doping scandal with some actualy proof? From
Eurosport (I'm not going to be pretentious and post it in

French...)

Quoted message said:

This is what I call a troll.
What if I post some allegations that your hubby/boyfriend is a

[censored]?

Quoted message said:

"pedalchick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is overshadowing something
even more serious - a doping scandal with some actualy proof? From
Eurosport (I'm not going to be pretentious and post it in French...)

I find it interesting that non-lawyers seem to not understand the nature of
proof that can be offered at trial. Phone taps are very credible evidence
if there is a proper foundation for admission and the statements in them are
no ambiguous. A person can testify as to matters that occurred in their
presence and may even testify as to certain things said by another, e.g.,
admissions against interest. In the case of testimony, the issue becomes
the credibility of the witness. Demeanor counts heavily but supporting
documentation can also help. Circumstantial evidence cases are often the
strongest and most compelling while so-called eye witness cases are often
the weakest.

Turning to the allegations of Emma O'Reilly as one person in Walsh's book,
one would question her motivation for speaking to Walsh. Was money paid?
Or is the motive something else? Can her allgeations be supported by
records of border crossings into Spain, tesitmony from people met in Spain,
etc. If the matter goes to trial, Armstrong will be called to testify. What
is his motive to falsify? An estimated $16 million a year in endorsements
at risk could be a motivator that would bring his credibility into question.
One thing I can tell you, having been a trial attorney, is that no matter
how well you prep your witness, trials rarely go according to a script and
there are times when your witness is on the stand being picked apart making
the lawyer wish they had gone into shoe sales. It's happened to every
lawyer who's tried a case.

I have to think that the Times lawyers have done their homework. It's going
to be a very interesting case.

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"pedalchick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is overshadowing something
even more serious - a doping scandal with some actualy proof? From
Eurosport (I'm not going to be pretentious and post it in French...)

I find it interesting that non-lawyers seem to not understand the nature

of

Quoted message said:

proof that can be offered at trial. Phone taps are very credible evidence
if there is a proper foundation for admission and the statements in them

are

Quoted message said:

no ambiguous. A person can testify as to matters that occurred in their
presence and may even testify as to certain things said by another, e.g.,
admissions against interest. In the case of testimony, the issue becomes
the credibility of the witness. Demeanor counts heavily but supporting
documentation can also help. Circumstantial evidence cases are often the
strongest and most compelling while so-called eye witness cases are often
the weakest.

Turning to the allegations of Emma O'Reilly as one person in Walsh's book,
one would question her motivation for speaking to Walsh. Was money paid?
Or is the motive something else? Can her allgeations be supported by
records of border crossings into Spain, tesitmony from people met in

Spain,

Quoted message said:

etc. If the matter goes to trial, Armstrong will be called to testify.

What

Quoted message said:

is his motive to falsify? An estimated $16 million a year in endorsements
at risk could be a motivator that would bring his credibility into

question.

Quoted message said:

One thing I can tell you, having been a trial attorney, is that no matter
how well you prep your witness, trials rarely go according to a script and
there are times when your witness is on the stand being picked apart

making

Quoted message said:

the lawyer wish they had gone into shoe sales. It's happened to every
lawyer who's tried a case.

I have to think that the Times lawyers have done their homework. It's

going

Quoted message said:

to be a very interesting case.

Brian, do you get any work done in your office during the month of July?

Generally, yes. From about 5 a.m. until OLN starts its daily coverage.
Then from after lunch until around 5 p.m. It's more work that all of France
combined during July.

"Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"pedalchick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is overshadowing something
even more serious - a doping scandal with some actualy proof? From
Eurosport (I'm not going to be pretentious and post it in French...)

I find it interesting that non-lawyers seem to not understand the nature

of

Quoted message said:

proof that can be offered at trial. Phone taps are very credible

evidence

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if there is a proper foundation for admission and the statements in them

are

Quoted message said:

no ambiguous. A person can testify as to matters that occurred in their
presence and may even testify as to certain things said by another,

e.g.,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

admissions against interest. In the case of testimony, the issue

becomes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the credibility of the witness. Demeanor counts heavily but supporting
documentation can also help. Circumstantial evidence cases are often

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

strongest and most compelling while so-called eye witness cases are

often

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the weakest.

Turning to the allegations of Emma O'Reilly as one person in Walsh's

book,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

one would question her motivation for speaking to Walsh. Was money

paid?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or is the motive something else? Can her allgeations be supported by
records of border crossings into Spain, tesitmony from people met in

Spain,

Quoted message said:

etc. If the matter goes to trial, Armstrong will be called to testify.

What

Quoted message said:

is his motive to falsify? An estimated $16 million a year in

endorsements

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

at risk could be a motivator that would bring his credibility into

question.

Quoted message said:

One thing I can tell you, having been a trial attorney, is that no

matter

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

how well you prep your witness, trials rarely go according to a script

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there are times when your witness is on the stand being picked apart

making

Quoted message said:

the lawyer wish they had gone into shoe sales. It's happened to every
lawyer who's tried a case.

I have to think that the Times lawyers have done their homework. It's

going

Quoted message said:

to be a very interesting case.

Brian, do you get any work done in your office during the month of July?

B. Lafferty said:

Generally, yes. From about 5 a.m. until OLN starts its daily coverage.
Then from after lunch until around 5 p.m. It's more work that all of France
combined during July.

I understand there's not much work done in August either...

Steve

Quoted message said:

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY

pedalchick <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Davide Tosi said:

pedalchick said:

It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is overshadowing something
even more serious - a doping scandal with some actualy proof? From
Eurosport (I'm not going to be pretentious and post it in French...)

This is what I call a troll. What if I post some allegations that your
hubby/boyfriend is a [censored]?

last I checked he didn't look like a bundle of twigs, but thanks for
confirming my rec.bicycles.[censored] theory.

uhh, look who you're dealing with.

pedalchick said:

At the heart of the investigation is Carlo Santuccione, who presents
himself as a "simple family doctor," but who's known inside the peloton
as "Ali the Chemist" for his dubious reputation.

I was wondering what Chemical Ali was up to these days.

pedalchick <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Davide Tosi said:

pedalchick said:

It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is overshadowing something
even more serious - a doping scandal with some actualy proof? From
Eurosport (I'm not going to be pretentious and post it in French...)

This is what I call a troll. What if I post some allegations that your
hubby/boyfriend is a [censored]?

last I checked he didn't look like a bundle of twigs, but thanks for
confirming my rec.bicycles.[censored] theory. I admit I am retarded
because I use cyclingforums, but at least I don't yell "Troll! *PLONK*"
at every post.

So she posts something from Eurosport, and it's a troll?? I don't
get it? Isn't that information from a news service about something we
all love to talk about? Doping. I mean just because it's not about
Lance doesn't make it any less pertinent. And Pedalchick's husband is
not a bundle of twigs.

Tom

Sierraman said:

"pedalchick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:L4Z-
[email hidden]:L4Zzc.46108$187.37267@fe11-
.usenetserver.com...

Quoted message said:

Davide Tosi said:

pedalchick <[email hidden]> wrote:
>It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is overshadowing
>something even more serious - a doping scandal with some actualy
>proof? From Eurosport (I'm not going to be pretentious and post
>it in French...)
This is what I call a troll. What if I post some allegations that
your hubby/boyfriend is a [censored]?

last I checked he didn't look like a bundle of twigs, but thanks for
confirming my rec.bicycles.[censored] theory. I admit I am retarded
because I use cyclingforums, but at least I don't yell "Troll!
*PLONK*" at every post.

What the next big race on your calender? Just curious, did you post the
philly report on your website yet? I was interested in reading it. I
have a friend who is sending me a video of Philly, hopefully with the
womens coverage.
B-

DP posted the report today. I saw the tape of the coverage, and it's
pretty weak as usual, but you can see my teammate come blasting out of
the pack only to have the Nuremberger train sweep from left to right,
cutting off her path. And, heartbreakingly, she has to quit pedaling and
LvG nips past to take the last podium spot!!! bummer.

--

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"pedalchick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is overshadowing something
even more serious - a doping scandal with some actualy proof? From
Eurosport (I'm not going to be pretentious and post it in French...)

I find it interesting that non-lawyers seem to not understand the nature of
proof that can be offered at trial. Phone taps are very credible evidence
if there is a proper foundation for admission and the statements in them are
no ambiguous. A person can testify as to matters that occurred in their
presence and may even testify as to certain things said by another, e.g.,
admissions against interest. In the case of testimony, the issue becomes
the credibility of the witness. Demeanor counts heavily but supporting
documentation can also help. Circumstantial evidence cases are often the
strongest and most compelling while so-called eye witness cases are often
the weakest.

Which is what nearly every Judge and Prosecutor claim at every trial
where the vast majority of the evidence is circumstantial rather than
direct.
Pretty much common sense.

Just like presenting your broken bike frame at a trial where you're
suing some inbred redneck for running you over.

If there is no eye witness(es) other than yourself and the redneck,
then you have to show all the circumstantial evidence apparently
caused by the reckless
and negligent driver in a civil case.

Quoted message said:

Turning to the allegations of Emma O'Reilly as one person in Walsh's book,
one would question her motivation for speaking to Walsh. Was money paid?
Or is the motive something else? Can her allgeations be supported by
records of border crossings into Spain, tesitmony from people met in Spain,
etc. If the matter goes to trial, Armstrong will be called to testify. What
is his motive to falsify? An estimated $16 million a year in endorsements
at risk could be a motivator that would bring his credibility into question.
One thing I can tell you, having been a trial attorney, is that no matter
how well you prep your witness, trials rarely go according to a script and
there are times when your witness is on the stand being picked apart making
the lawyer wish they had gone into shoe sales. It's happened to every
lawyer who's tried a case.

I have to think that the Times lawyers have done their homework. It's going
to be a very interesting case.

Amit said:

pedalchick <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Davide Tosi said:

pedalchick <[email hidden]> wrote:
>It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is overshadowing something
>even more serious - a doping scandal with some actualy proof? From
>Eurosport (I'm not going to be pretentious and post it in French...)
This is what I call a troll. What if I post some allegations that your
hubby/boyfriend is a [censored]?

last I checked he didn't look like a bundle of twigs, but thanks for
confirming my rec.bicycles.[censored] theory.

uhh, look who you're dealing with.

hey, that post at least had a sorta dialogue with pedalchick going,
unlike this example-
http://www.google.com/groups?&selm=3b53901b.240826690%40news.cis.dfn.de
things are looking up.

hh

"pedalchick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sierraman said:

"pedalchick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:L4Z-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden]:L4Zzc.46108$187.37267@fe11-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

.usenetserver.com...

Quoted message said:

Davide Tosi wrote:
> pedalchick <[email hidden]> wrote:
> >It seems that the LA Confidential scandal is overshadowing
> >something even more serious - a doping scandal with some

actualy

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >proof? From Eurosport (I'm not going to be pretentious and post
> >it in French...)
> This is what I call a troll. What if I post some allegations

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> your hubby/boyfriend is a [censored]?

last I checked he didn't look like a bundle of twigs, but thanks for
confirming my rec.bicycles.[censored] theory. I admit I am retarded
because I use cyclingforums, but at least I don't yell "Troll!
*PLONK*" at every post.

What the next big race on your calender? Just curious, did you post

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

philly report on your website yet? I was interested in reading it. I
have a friend who is sending me a video of Philly, hopefully with the
womens coverage.
B-

DP posted the report today. I saw the tape of the coverage, and it's
pretty weak as usual, but you can see my teammate come blasting out of
the pack only to have the Nuremberger train sweep from left to right,
cutting off her path. And, heartbreakingly, she has to quit pedaling and
LvG nips past to take the last podium spot!!! bummer.

Dotsie Cowden had pink flowers in her hair? Dam, I wish you could post a
photo of that!

pedalchick said:

In a transcript of a hidden microphone conversation in Santuccione's
office published in Wednesday's edition of Le Monde, Mazzoleni expressed
worry to the doctor last April 27:

"I spoke with Danilo [Di Luca] because for Sunday, I've made 4,000 units
in subcutaneous... and I'm riding Saturday... Saturday, there won't be
any problems?," Mazzoleni says on the tape.

43rd Rund um den Henninger Turm - 1.1/1.7.1
Germany, May 1, 2004

Results - 205 km
1 Karsten Kroon (Ned) Rabobank 5.21.10
2 Danilo Hondo (Ger) Gerolsteiner
3 Johan Coenen (Bel) MrBookmaker.com-Palmans
4 Gregory Rast (Swi) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.03
5 Torsten Schmidt (Ger) Gerolsteiner 0.06
6 Björn Leukemans (Bel) MrBookmaker.com-Palmans 0.28
7 Erik Zabel (Ger) T-Mobile Team
8 Marcus Zberg (Swi) Gerolsteiner
9 Eddy Mazzoleni (Ita) Saeco

only 35 finishers.