The Inner Ring and Climbing

Carrera said:

I find that climbing really steep, long stretches on my Carrera is really really tough. On more moderate hills there hasn't been a problem but in other cases I've had to physically bust my ass to keep the pedals churning and this, in turn, has led to near exhaustion.

So, what I want to know is whether spinning more in a lower gear will be less physically demanding than powering uphill in a bigger gear? What I'm hoping is that I'll now be able to ascend very steep terrain without busting my ass and switch the stress from my leg muscles to my overall aerobic endurance.
Anyone have any insight?

From my experience with a three a lot depends on physical fitness and muscle tone. Obviously you are not comfortable "churning the pedals". In my case, I look for the gear where I'm not quite spinning and not quite powering up hill where I can hold a steady heart rate in the high zone II/low zone III about 70% of max. Sometimes that's on the smaller ring and sometimes thats on the middle ring. For example, there's one hill I have to tackle about 7 miles into one of my 20+ mile routes. At the start of the hill which is one mile long, I'm on my small ring. The hill flattens a bit in the middle for 50 yards or so allowing me to shift up to the middle ring. Then the hill takes an up turn that's steeper than the original up hill climb. On that second portion of the climb, I never have to drop back to the smaller ring. I'm able to maintain cadence and feel good about it.

Do you reckon that if you tackled the first part of that climb on your middle ring you'd be in danger of bonking out on the climb? That is, do you attribute your ability to get up there to sensible gearing?
I guess what I need to do is put all of this to the test. Hopefully I'll cycle out to the mountains tomorrow and see if I can climb more easily now I have lower gears. This time I won't be grinding my way up hill red in the face but will hopefully pedal a lot faster and find that it will be easier. The only thing that bugs me is whether my fitness level is tuned enough to keep up a fast cadence on a climb. The whole thing has me puzzled but I can't wait to see what happens.

Trekker2017 said:

From my experience with a three a lot depends on physical fitness and muscle tone. Obviously you are not comfortable "churning the pedals". In my case, I look for the gear where I'm not quite spinning and not quite powering up hill where I can hold a steady heart rate in the high zone II/low zone III about 70% of max. Sometimes that's on the smaller ring and sometimes thats on the middle ring. For example, there's one hill I have to tackle about 7 miles into one of my 20+ mile routes. At the start of the hill which is one mile long, I'm on my small ring. The hill flattens a bit in the middle for 50 yards or so allowing me to shift up to the middle ring. Then the hill takes an up turn that's steeper than the original up hill climb. On that second portion of the climb, I never have to drop back to the smaller ring. I'm able to maintain cadence and feel good about it.

[quote="Carrera"]I find that climbing really steep, long stretches on my Carrera is really really tough. On more moderate hills there hasn't been a problem but in other cases I've had to physically bust my ass to keep the pedals churning and this, in turn, has led to near exhaustion.


Why not train on smaller hills so you can tackle the big hills in time? sounds like your not training properly imo.if your busting your ass to keep the pedals turning and blowing up, at that point your not makin much progress.

Carrera, believe you're correct when you say the lower gearing should take a lot of stress off the leg muscles; that's what makes it so good for all-day mountain rides. You'll find you can still get to max HR on your inner ring if you want, but unless the grade is really steep, you can stay seated, or alternate between sitting/standing. It's a great option to have.

And you don't always need to use you biggest cog on the triple. When you're down below 10 mph on a long climb, the inner ring will give you a whole set of tighter climbing gears to work with as the grade changes.

After watching Lance climb 8% mountain grades in the TdF at 90 rpm, I'd have to say cadence should work for you as well. Certainly helps me.

I already do most of my training on the hills I can handle. It's the two hills I can't handle that worry me most. One of these particular suckers just got the better of me after only 3 minutes pedaling. I simply threw in the towel and concluded I didn't have the gearing to make a serious attempt. However, my new bike should have the full range of gears I need to give it a shot - hence my post.
The other hill is equally awesome and I've been up twice so far all the way. I only do it occasionally as the kind of effort required to make the ascent is pretty intense and I guess you have to be careful not to overstress your knees. As I say, most climbs don't particulary bother me and I can sprint O.K. uphill (room for improvement of course).
At any rate, this is what I plan to do today, provided it doesn't start pouring with rain (don't want to get my brand new bike wet):
I'm hoping to get on my new bike and cycle out to the mountains. I'm then going to select a gear on my smallest inner ring and do my climb. This time I won't need to bust my ass with regard to muscular effort from the legs and I imagine I'll have the option of pedaling at faster cadence. However, till I try I still don't know whether this will make my climb easier but will have to see. Put it this way, if I can do the climb on my inner ring and get to the summit more easily than is the norm, then I'll be returning home in a very good mood and quite happy.
In a way, I suppose this is an interesting experiment - one in which you can discover where your most effective gear strategy lies. But what bothers me a little is the fact I may ascend more slowly if I'm not used to high cadence and this may chip away at my aerobic capacity as the climb drags on. As a cyclist my strengths lie in my leg power but I've always struggled more with regard to endurance and am trying to push my fitness level up (doing more riding time).
I'll let you folks know what I think after I do the climb. Can't wait to see how it goes and I'm hoping we don't get another hideous electrical storm with downpours. The weather here is absolutely horrendous.

[quote="zaskar"]

Carrera said:

I find that climbing really steep, long stretches on my Carrera is really really tough. On more moderate hills there hasn't been a problem but in other cases I've had to physically bust my ass to keep the pedals churning and this, in turn, has led to near exhaustion.

Why not train on smaller hills so you can tackle the big hills in time? sounds like your not training properly imo.if your busting your ass to keep the pedals turning and blowing up, at that point your not makin much progress.

Using the inner chain ring has allowed me to go places I could not go before. Also, using lower gears at a higher cadance will mean you will be exerting more aerobic effort, thereby improving your aerobic fitness levels and generating less lactic acid.

You should find climbing MUCH easier. That's why they use triples on mountain bikes.

The only downside I have found to triples are that they are more complicated to maintain and to dial in.

Carrera said:

I already do most of my training on the hills I can handle. It's the two hills I can't handle that worry me most. One of these particular suckers just got the better of me after only 3 minutes pedaling. I simply threw in the towel and concluded I didn't have the gearing to make a serious attempt. However, my new bike should have the full range of gears I need to give it a shot - hence my post.
The other hill is equally awesome and I've been up twice so far all the way. I only do it occasionally as the kind of effort required to make the ascent is pretty intense and I guess you have to be careful not to overstress your knees. As I say, most climbs don't particulary bother me and I can sprint O.K. uphill (room for improvement of course).
At any rate, this is what I plan to do today, provided it doesn't start pouring with rain (don't want to get my brand new bike wet):
I'm hoping to get on my new bike and cycle out to the mountains. I'm then going to select a gear on my smallest inner ring and do my climb. This time I won't need to bust my ass with regard to muscular effort from the legs and I imagine I'll have the option of pedaling at faster cadence. However, till I try I still don't know whether this will make my climb easier but will have to see. Put it this way, if I can do the climb on my inner ring and get to the summit more easily than is the norm, then I'll be returning home in a very good mood and quite happy.
In a way, I suppose this is an interesting experiment - one in which you can discover where your most effective gear strategy lies. But what bothers me a little is the fact I may ascend more slowly if I'm not used to high cadence and this may chip away at my aerobic capacity as the climb drags on. As a cyclist my strengths lie in my leg power but I've always struggled more with regard to endurance and am trying to push my fitness level up (doing more riding time).
I'll let you folks know what I think after I do the climb. Can't wait to see how it goes and I'm hoping we don't get another hideous electrical storm with downpours. The weather here is absolutely horrendous.

With my Scott being a new bike I'm finding the gears work like a dream, whereas my Carrera (being older) really gives me trouble when gears don't change or respond to the shifter. With my Carrera, I may be able to adjust the gears so they respond to flicks of the brake leaver but then they let me down on the shifter button going the opposite way. I suspect maybe my front derailier needs adjusting. As for the Scott at least I'll have my guarantee effective for a year till I learn more mechanical skills.
However the case may be, I just got back from the climb and it looks like you're right. I did a very extensive climb in the mountains and being on the inner ring made a huge difference. I was able to regulate my breathing and just keep taking in air rhythmically as I climbed. When I finally hit the really steep section at the summit I was still O.K. It really was a huge difference and I guess I'm a converted triple rider from now on. I reckon I should be able to do this climb maybe 2 times a week - which should develop more fitness.
Of course, I'm aware that with the right cassette you don't really need a triple at all (cassettes can be adjusted). Still, I would personally vouch for the triple system for those folks who like to climb and feel a need for a wide range of gears.

renoster said:

Using the inner chain ring has allowed me to go places I could not go before. Also, using lower gears at a higher cadance will mean you will be exerting more aerobic effort, thereby improving your aerobic fitness levels and generating less lactic acid.

You should find climbing MUCH easier. That's why they use triples on mountain bikes.

The only downside I have found to triples are that they are more complicated to maintain and to dial in.

Carrera said:

Of course, I'm aware that with the right cassette you don't really need a triple at all (cassettes can be adjusted). Still, I would personally vouch for the triple system for those folks who like to climb and feel a need for a wide range of gears.

Or if triple is not your thing, you can get FSA Carbon Compact Pro - double ring with 50/34 size chainrings. This crank + your preferred cassette combo provides you with a much tighter gear combination.

Or better yet, if you're really serious on climbs -- lose some body weight!!! The lighter you are, the faster you are on climbs 😄

Carrera said:

I already do most of my training on the hills I can handle. It's the two hills I can't handle that worry me most. One of these particular suckers just got the better of me after only 3 minutes pedaling. I simply threw in the towel and concluded I didn't have the gearing to make a serious attempt. However, my new bike should have the full range of gears I need to give it a shot - hence my post.
The other hill is equally awesome and I've been up twice so far all the way. I only do it occasionally as the kind of effort required to make the ascent is pretty intense and I guess you have to be careful not to overstress your knees. As I say, most climbs don't particulary bother me and I can sprint O.K. uphill (room for improvement of course).
At any rate, this is what I plan to do today, provided it doesn't start pouring with rain (don't want to get my brand new bike wet):
I'm hoping to get on my new bike and cycle out to the mountains. I'm then going to select a gear on my smallest inner ring and do my climb. This time I won't need to bust my ass with regard to muscular effort from the legs and I imagine I'll have the option of pedaling at faster cadence. However, till I try I still don't know whether this will make my climb easier but will have to see. Put it this way, if I can do the climb on my inner ring and get to the summit more easily than is the norm, then I'll be returning home in a very good mood and quite happy.
In a way, I suppose this is an interesting experiment - one in which you can discover where your most effective gear strategy lies. But what bothers me a little is the fact I may ascend more slowly if I'm not used to high cadence and this may chip away at my aerobic capacity as the climb drags on. As a cyclist my strengths lie in my leg power but I've always struggled more with regard to endurance and am trying to push my fitness level up (doing more riding time).
I'll let you folks know what I think after I do the climb. Can't wait to see how it goes and I'm hoping we don't get another hideous electrical storm with downpours. The weather here is absolutely horrendous.

Gottcha, let us know how it goes i hope it stays dry for your ride good luck!

I think your original post is spot-on. Most doubles come standard with rear cassettes that are designed mainly for flat terrain, or small to moderate hills. If you are doing serious climbs, then even a very fit rider will be unable to maintain good cadence using the stock gearing. I faced this problem and changed my rear cassette, but a triple would obviously have the same effect. From experience I can vouch that spinning faster with lower resistance makes it a LOT easier to make it up long steep climbs. On steep climbs, just stay in the saddle and keep your heart rate steady at a rate you can maintain, and keep the pedals spinning around 90rpm+. Whatever gear you have to be in to make that happen will be the correct gear - you probably will only be able to do this on your triple cuz your double prolly can't go that low with the stock cassette.

Had I used the very smallest gear on the small ring, I guess I'd have been able to climb seated. As it was I went up 2 or so gears more and climbed standing. I tried to relax my entire body as much as possible and breathed in deep lungfulls of air (to prepare for the steeper parts of the climb to come). I tried to keep a nice rhythm going and felt fine. The final part of the climb was taxing but not so much as I'd be scared of going up again. The ascent varies around 20 - 25 per.cent.
Now when I've struggled to do the same climb on my Carrera I've suffered near hyperventilation at the top. On my first attempt I was dangerously out of breath. Now I know that what I really needed all along was lower gearing to make life far more tolerable.
Just as I started the climb upwards it started to thunder and a few drops of rain fell. Thought I was in for another storm. However, I took a few more pics of the mountains and will take the film in tomorrow. I'll put the pics on the internet.
Only one more question. Now I know I can climb this monster far easier on my inner ring, should I try to build my gears upwards? Or should I just try to increase my cadence and build more speed and efficiency that way.

WINGNUTT said:

I think your original post is spot-on. Most doubles come standard with rear cassettes that are designed mainly for flat terrain, or small to moderate hills. If you are doing serious climbs, then even a very fit rider will be unable to maintain good cadence using the stock gearing. I faced this problem and changed my rear cassette, but a triple would obviously have the same effect. From experience I can vouch that spinning faster with lower resistance makes it a LOT easier to make it up long steep climbs. On steep climbs, just stay in the saddle and keep your heart rate steady at a rate you can maintain, and keep the pedals spinning around 90rpm+. Whatever gear you have to be in to make that happen will be the correct gear - you probably will only be able to do this on your triple cuz your double prolly can't go that low with the stock cassette.

Carrera said:

Had I used the very smallest gear on the small ring, I guess I'd have been able to climb seated. As it was I went up 2 or so gears more and climbed standing. I tried to relax my entire body as much as possible and breathed in deep lungfulls of air (to prepare for the steeper parts of the climb to come). I tried to keep a nice rhythm going and felt fine. The final part of the climb was taxing but not so much as I'd be scared of going up again. The ascent varies around 20 - 25 per.cent.
Now when I've struggled to do the same climb on my Carrera I've suffered near hyperventilation at the top. On my first attempt I was dangerously out of breath. Now I know that what I really needed all along was lower gearing to make life far more tolerable.
Just as I started the climb upwards it started to thunder and a few drops of rain fell. Thought I was in for another storm. However, I took a few more pics of the mountains and will take the film in tomorrow. I'll put the pics on the internet.
Only one more question. Now I know I can climb this monster far easier on my inner ring, should I try to build my gears upwards? Or should I just try to increase my cadence and build more speed and efficiency that way.

I don't think the hills are 20%+... that's almost impossible to climb on a bike. In any case, I wouldn't focus on trying to push a taller gear... focus instead on your heart rate and your cadence. If you can keep your cadence above 90, and your heart rate is within your zone, then push the tallest gear you can maintain at that cadence and heart rate. If you try to push a taller gear, either your cadence will drop or your HR will go out of the zone, and then you know it's time to down shift. I would also try to remain seated - standing will wear you out a lot faster and you don't really go that much faster unless you are in a full sprint.

One thing that's tough to get used to is spinning the pedals fast in a very low gear. You feel like you're barely moving, but check your speedo - you're probably going faster than you think. Also, some people (mainly more muscular people) like to turn bigger gears at slower cadence - if you are that build, then perhaps high rpm won't be as effective. It's worked for me, but I'm fairly scrawny.

WINGNUTT said:

I don't think the hills are 20%+... that's almost impossible to climb on a bike. In any case, I wouldn't focus on trying to push a taller gear... focus instead on your heart rate and your cadence. If you can keep your cadence above 90, and your heart rate is within your zone, then push the tallest gear you can maintain at that cadence and heart rate. If you try to push a taller gear, either your cadence will drop or your HR will go out of the zone, and then you know it's time to down shift. I would also try to remain seated - standing will wear you out a lot faster and you don't really go that much faster unless you are in a full sprint.

One thing that's tough to get used to is spinning the pedals fast in a very low gear. You feel like you're barely moving, but check your speedo - you're probably going faster than you think. Also, some people (mainly more muscular people) like to turn bigger gears at slower cadence - if you are that build, then perhaps high rpm won't be as effective. It's worked for me, but I'm fairly scrawny.

Agree with your advice on pushing the cadence up, not the gear. Selecting the right gear to keep around 90 rpm, while staying in your desired HR zone would seem to be to be the quickest way to climb a long steady grade.

Concerning 20% grades, yes, we've got a few on the local hillclimbs. They don't average this steep, but short sections and hairpins will go 20-25% and higher. At around 15%, you can't sit and pull because the front wheel starts lofting off the ground. I have to stand in my 30/25 and forget the HR zones, just go all out to keep moving up at 3 mph. A few of the best climbers can make it in doubles without getting off to walk.

Will I be able to climb some good steep hills with my lowest gear? Its a 39/24 i think and, considering I used to have a mountain bike, seems quite high for climbing. Any thoughts?

NUFCrichard said:

Will I be able to climb some good steep hills with my lowest gear? Its a 39/24 i think and, considering I used to have a mountain bike, seems quite high for climbing. Any thoughts?

39/24 is not a very low gear. When your climbs start to get above 5-6%, your cadence will likely drop way down, unless it's just a very short hill. My rear cassette was a 13-25 and I swapped it out to a 13-30 and it made a very big improvement on steep hills. I wish I had gone to a 13-32, but at some point you need to make a change to your rear derailer. 13-32 is probably at the limit.

I'm hoping this will work O.K. I'm providing a link to a webpage where I've posted my favourite climbing route. All you have to do to see the scenery and climbs is to go to the address below. If nothing happens and no page appears, it may be best to type the address into the address bar.
You can also see a pic of my bike on the same page. I hope folks will post and say what they think of this climbing root - it can be very thundery and rainy in this area but it's remote and good for climbing-training.

http://www.geocities.com/resromae/climbing

Looks like a really nice and scenic route with some good rolling hills. Those hills don't look much steeper than around 6%, but that's enough to slow your cadence in a 39/24 gear.

The photo may be a touch deceptive. Maybe the best depiction is the one with the bike propped by the fence where you can get some idea of the length of the initial climb from the fence where the bike is parked. It begins where the road dips below. I do it on my inner ring on the third highest gear on that ring. The second ring is possible but far more leg-strength is needed.
I've descended this particular section at 40 mph and that was using my brakes to slow my speed.
Check out the sheep. There are far more of them in Wales.

WINGNUTT said:

Looks like a really nice and scenic route with some good rolling hills. Those hills don't look much steeper than around 6%, but that's enough to slow your cadence in a 39/24 gear.

Pictures do tend to make hills look less steep. They definitely look like some good hills, but certainly not 20-25%. If you watched the Tour de France, the STEEPEST section of Alpe D'Huez is 11% and change. I have an ascent/descent meter on my bike and was surprised that some of the really steep climbs I do are only 5-8% 🙁

The sheep look nice. I'm originally from England... don't miss the weather, but I wish we had a few more scenic rides like that.