THE GREATEST NEWS EVER !

[email hidden] schrieb:

Quoted message said:

http://www.print-it.blogspot.com << The Greatest News Ever!

if god is all powerfull and can only do good, then how come there is a
lucifer? Doesn't that mean that god is not all that powerfull after all?
Unless, BOTH are human inventions and the true gods are the laws of the
universe (science)?

Sonnenrad said:

[email hidden] schrieb:

Quoted message said:

http://www.print-it.blogspot.com << The Greatest News Ever!

if god is all powerfull and can only do good, then how come there is

a

Quoted message said:

lucifer? Doesn't that mean that god is not all that powerfull after

all?

Quoted message said:

Unless, BOTH are human inventions and the true gods are the laws of

the

Quoted message said:

universe (science)?

Your logic is faulty and you aren't following the story.

God creates lucifer.
Lucifer has free will.
Lucifer chooses to be evil.

JustCurious... schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Sonnenrad said:

[email hidden] schrieb:

Quoted message said:

http://www.print-it.blogspot.com << The Greatest News Ever!

if god is all powerfull and can only do good, then how come there is

a

Quoted message said:

lucifer? Doesn't that mean that god is not all that powerfull after

all?

Quoted message said:

Unless, BOTH are human inventions and the true gods are the laws of

the

Quoted message said:

universe (science)?

Your logic is faulty and you aren't following the story.

God creates lucifer.
Lucifer has free will.
Lucifer chooses to be evil.

yes, but if god is all powerfull how can there be any free will?

Sonnenrad said:

JustCurious... schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Your logic is faulty and you aren't following the story.

God creates lucifer.
Lucifer has free will.
Lucifer chooses to be evil.

yes, but if god is all powerfull how can there be any free will?

To be nice?
It wouldn't be any fun being all powerful if no one actually chose you
as God, now would it?

mjoann

On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:57:47 -0400, Sonnenrad <zxcvg@trew> choked
out these words:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] schrieb:

Quoted message said:

http://www.print-it.blogspot.com << The Greatest News Ever!

if god is all powerfull and can only do good, then how come there is a
lucifer? Doesn't that mean that god is not all that powerfull after all?
Unless, BOTH are human inventions and the true gods are the laws of the
universe (science)?

god created lucifer. hello! go read the bible.

mjoann schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Sonnenrad said:

JustCurious... schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Your logic is faulty and you aren't following the story.

God creates lucifer.
Lucifer has free will.
Lucifer chooses to be evil.

yes, but if god is all powerfull how can there be any free will?

To be nice?
It wouldn't be any fun being all powerful if no one actually chose you
as God, now would it?

mjoann

you don't understand: if you have infinite power you can predict the
future and thus free will is irrelevant.

Sonnenrad said:

mjoann schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Sonnenrad said:

yes, but if god is all powerfull how can there be any free will?

To be nice?
It wouldn't be any fun being all powerful if no one actually chose you
as God, now would it?

mjoann

you don't understand: if you have infinite power you can predict the
future and thus free will is irrelevant.

Of course I understand, apparently better than you since I didn't have
to ask theology questions on a bunch of newsgroups.
Free will still exists even if God does know what's going to happen as a
result of it.

mjoann

mjoann schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Sonnenrad said:

mjoann schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Of course I understand, apparently better than you since I didn't
have to ask theology questions on a bunch of newsgroups.
Free will still exists even if God does know what's going to happen
as a result of it.

But if god created lucifer and according to your logic, he could
predict that he would turn out evil despite free will, then god CANNOT
be all good.

FYI, proper names require capitalization.
Lucifer became evil *despite* free will? What do you mean?
He became evil *because* he had free will. How does Satan's decision
mean God isn't good? [censored] chose to do evil, does that mean his parents
couldn't possibly have been good?
Just because God created Satan and Satan went bad doesn't mean the
creator is bad.

I would recommend you talk to a pastor if you have so many questions
regarding free will and pre-destination.

mjoann

listen, god can predict the future, right? So he creates, satan knowing
full well that he (satan) would become evil (wich negates the idea of
free will...), because god can tell the future, right? Anyway, if god is
all powerfull why doesn't he kill satan right now?
You want to know why? There is no god and good and evil are subjective
concept (read Nietasche's the antichrist)

JustCurious... schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Sonnenrad said:

listen, god can predict the future, right? So he creates, satan

knowing

Quoted message said:

full well that he (satan) would become evil (wich negates the idea of

Quoted message said:

free will...), because god can tell the future, right? Anyway, if god

is

Quoted message said:

all powerfull why doesn't he kill satan right now?
You want to know why? There is no god and good and evil are

subjective

Quoted message said:

concept (read Nietasche's the antichrist)

Who said God can predict the future?

God can predict his/her/its own actions. Just like how I can predict
that I will buy a cup of coffee today. That doesn't mean I can see into
the future.

god is supposed to be all powerfull, meaning infinite powers

Sonnenrad said:

god is supposed to be all powerfull, meaning infinite powers

Whose definition of God are you using?
Its impossible to have this discussion when you say things like "is
supposed to be".

"supposed to be" according to whom??

Then there is the issue of God interacting in a universe such as ours
that has rules (presumably of his/her/its design).

The Christian bible doesn't go into enough detail about all the
metaphysics (or physics for that matter).

JustCurious... schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Sonnenrad said:

god is supposed to be all powerfull, meaning infinite powers

Whose definition of God are you using?
Its impossible to have this discussion when you say things like "is
supposed to be".

"supposed to be" according to whom??

Then there is the issue of God interacting in a universe such as ours
that has rules (presumably of his/her/its design).

The Christian bible doesn't go into enough detail about all the
metaphysics (or physics for that matter).

the bible says that god is "allmighty" this must mean that he can do
anything.

mjoann schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Sonnenrad said:

listen, god can predict the future, right? So he creates, satan
knowing full well that he (satan) would become evil (wich negates the
idea of free will...),

How does Satan becoming evil negate free will? It is quite the opposite;
an expression of his free will.

Quoted message said:

because god can tell the future, right? Anyway, if god is all
powerfull why doesn't he kill satan right now?

Because we have free will. Free will doesn't mean anything if they're
aren't any other choices.

mjoann

ok, ok forget "free will" for a moment. If I create a deadly virus in a
lab that kill half of humanity, this makes me evil, right? Unless, I
made a mistake. But god is *perfect* and *all knowing* so what about his
creation of satan? How come god does nothing to correct his mistake?

Sonnenrad said:

mjoann schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Sonnenrad said:

listen, god can predict the future, right? So he creates, satan
knowing full well that he (satan) would become evil (wich negates

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

idea of free will...),

How does Satan becoming evil negate free will? It is quite the

opposite;

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

an expression of his free will.

Quoted message said:

because god can tell the future, right? Anyway, if god is all
powerfull why doesn't he kill satan right now?

Because we have free will. Free will doesn't mean anything if

they're

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

aren't any other choices.

ok, ok forget "free will" for a moment. If I create a deadly virus in

a

Quoted message said:

lab that kill half of humanity, this makes me evil, right? Unless, I
made a mistake. But god is *perfect* and *all knowing* so what about

his

Quoted message said:

creation of satan? How come god does nothing to correct his mistake?

It's the Jews' fault.

David

David Cohen schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Sonnenrad said:

mjoann schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Sonnenrad wrote:

>listen, god can predict the future, right? So he creates, satan
>knowing full well that he (satan) would become evil (wich negates

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>idea of free will...),

How does Satan becoming evil negate free will? It is quite the

opposite;

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

an expression of his free will.

>because god can tell the future, right? Anyway, if god is all
>powerfull why doesn't he kill satan right now?

Because we have free will. Free will doesn't mean anything if

they're

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

aren't any other choices.

ok, ok forget "free will" for a moment. If I create a deadly virus in

a

Quoted message said:

lab that kill half of humanity, this makes me evil, right? Unless, I
made a mistake. But god is *perfect* and *all knowing* so what about

his

Quoted message said:

creation of satan? How come god does nothing to correct his mistake?

It's the Jews' fault.

David

jews are not gods

Sonnenrad said:

ok, ok forget "free will" for a moment. If I create a deadly virus in

a

Quoted message said:

lab that kill half of humanity, this makes me evil, right? Unless, I
made a mistake. But god is *perfect* and *all knowing* so what about

his

Quoted message said:

creation of satan? How come god does nothing to correct his mistake?

A poster above made a good point. If you have a child and then later
they become a serial killer, does that make you evil?
no.
It works the same way with God.

There are many possible explanations for the the usefulness of evil.
Perhaps trials and tribulations are necessary for personal growth.
Perhaps God desires a relationship with mature beings, and maturity is
only developed after facing adversity.

JustCurious... said:

Sonnenrad said:

ok, ok forget "free will" for a moment. If I create a deadly virus

in

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

lab that kill half of humanity, this makes me evil, right? Unless,

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

made a mistake. But god is *perfect* and *all knowing* so what

about

Quoted message said:

his

Quoted message said:

creation of satan? How come god does nothing to correct his

mistake?

Quoted message said:

A poster above made a good point. If you have a child and then later
they become a serial killer, does that make you evil?
no.
It works the same way with God.

There are many possible explanations for the the usefulness of evil.
Perhaps trials and tribulations are necessary for personal growth.
Perhaps God desires a relationship with mature beings, and maturity

is

Quoted message said:

only developed after facing adversity.

This predicates that only one logic system is possible. An omnipotent
being could have as easily created a universe (in a larger sense, not
merely physical) where it was possible for a Being to mature without
facing adversity. Or a world with free choice that did not necessarily
entail evil.

This 'best/only of all possible "sensible" worlds' theory lays
unnecessary constraints on what the Supreme Entity could do. This does
not correspond to what we commonly understand as 'God'.

We can easily imagine an Utopia. Why couldn't God?

Quoted message said:

We can easily imagine an Utopia. Why couldn't God?

I cannot imagine such a Utopia. Without the sour there is no sweet.
Many things are defined my their opposites.

Evil is necessary to show what Good is.

Can you imagine an existence where nothing bad ever happens? An
existence full of success and devoid of failure?
How would you measure success ?

JustCurious... schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Sonnenrad said:

ok, ok forget "free will" for a moment. If I create a deadly virus in

a

Quoted message said:

lab that kill half of humanity, this makes me evil, right? Unless, I
made a mistake. But god is *perfect* and *all knowing* so what about

his

Quoted message said:

creation of satan? How come god does nothing to correct his mistake?

A poster above made a good point. If you have a child and then later
they become a serial killer, does that make you evil?
no.

yes, if you could see in the future

Quoted message said:

There are many possible explanations for the the usefulness of evil.
Perhaps trials and tribulations are necessary for personal growth.
Perhaps God desires a relationship with mature beings, and maturity is
only developed after facing adversity.

perhaps, but this negates the idea that god is all good

On 9 Apr 2005 09:57:11 -0700, "[email hidden]"
<[email hidden]> choked out these words:

Quoted message said:

This predicates that only one logic system is possible. An omnipotent
being could have as easily created a universe (in a larger sense, not
merely physical) where it was possible for a Being to mature without
facing adversity.

you mean like the way Jesus didn't face adversity? oh, wait; He
*did* face adversity, didn't He? silly me.