The Dancing Chain, by Frank Berto

Excellent book. The price has gone up from the first edition.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just received notice that "The Dancing Chain" by Frank Berto will be
shipping around 2/5/2005 to people who have ordered it through
Amazon.com

For those who have not yet ordered a copy of this fine history of the
derailleur, it is available through the following link:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1892495414/ref=ase_veluninc/

The current Amazon pre-order price is $32.97, which is a savings of 34%
off the list price of $49.95.

--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash

B. Lafferty said:

Excellent book. The price has gone up from the first edition.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just received notice that "The Dancing Chain" by Frank Berto will be
shipping around 2/5/2005 to people who have ordered it through
Amazon.com

For those who have not yet ordered a copy of this fine history of the
derailleur, it is available through the following link:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1892495414/ref=ase_veluninc/

The current Amazon pre-order price is $32.97, which is a savings of 34%
off the list price of $49.95.

--
Steven L. Sheffield

Dear B. and Steven,

Before ordering the book, I'd wait until it's actually in
print and avaiable.

The reprint or new edition was originally supposed to appear
in October. The publisher may be waiting until there are
enough orders to make a print run profitable.

Carl Fogel

Quoted post said:

Just received notice that "The Dancing Chain" by Frank Berto will be
shipping around 2/5/2005 to people who have ordered it through
Amazon.com

For those who have not yet ordered a copy of this fine history of the
derailleur, it is available through the following link:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1892495414/ref=ase_veluninc/

The current Amazon pre-order price is $32.97, which is a savings of 34%
off the list price of $49.95.

I have that book; I rate it excellent. It is really one-of-a-kind if you're
into that sort of thing. I don't know why Berto is the only listed author,
there are three.

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Excellent book. The price has gone up from the first edition.

I read somewhere that this is a substantial rewrite, with Berto being
the sole author. In my opinion, that's probably a good thing, since
the major flaw with the first edition was that its parts didn't hang
together as well as they might.

"Gary Young" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Excellent book. The price has gone up from the first edition.

I read somewhere that this is a substantial rewrite, with Berto being
the sole author. In my opinion, that's probably a good thing, since
the major flaw with the first edition was that its parts didn't hang
together as well as they might.

The first edition was essentially self-published. Is that still the case?

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Excellent book. The price has gone up from the first edition.

it's too bad, this guy made a career writing articles about crossover
vs. alpine gearing and plotting logarithmic gearcharts, stuff that
seems so quaint now, but no one cares about.

"Amit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Excellent book. The price has gone up from the first edition.

it's too bad, this guy made a career writing articles about crossover
vs. alpine gearing and plotting logarithmic gearcharts, stuff that
seems so quaint now, but no one cares about.

He made a career that he enjoyed for years. That's more than can be said
for most people. And his book is really an excellent way to end the career,
even though it isn't a tome on alpine gearing.

"Distrahit animum librorum multitudo." - Seneca

Quoted message said:

Before ordering the book, I'd wait until it's actually in
print and avaiable.

The reprint or new edition was originally supposed to appear
in October. The publisher may be waiting until there are
enough orders to make a print run profitable.

So the publisher won't do another run until there're enough
pre-orders, but you suggest no one order one until it's back in print.

Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this
clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.
"That's some catch, that Catch-22," he observed.
"It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed.

-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Comprehensive catalogue of track equipment: online since 1996.
http://www.businesscycles.com

B. Lafferty said:

"Gary Young" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Excellent book. The price has gone up from the first edition.

I read somewhere that this is a substantial rewrite, with Berto being
the sole author. In my opinion, that's probably a good thing, since
the major flaw with the first edition was that its parts didn't hang
together as well as they might.

The first edition was essentially self-published. Is that still the case?

Dear B.,

Kinda-sorta, in that Van Der Plas publishes only a few
books:

http://www.cyclepublishing.com/aboutus/index.html

Here's their current page on "Dancing Chain":

http://www.cyclepublishing.com/cyclingbooks/dc.html

They have a special offer on pre-ordering to January 1st,
but the original poster was apparently advised by Amazon
that shipping is now set back to February, so they've missed
both Christmas and my birthday.

Carl Fogel

John Dacey said:

"Distrahit animum librorum multitudo." - Seneca

Quoted message said:

Before ordering the book, I'd wait until it's actually in
print and avaiable.

The reprint or new edition was originally supposed to appear
in October. The publisher may be waiting until there are
enough orders to make a print run profitable.

So the publisher won't do another run until there're enough
pre-orders, but you suggest no one order one until it's back in print.

Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this
clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.
"That's some catch, that Catch-22," he observed.
"It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed.

-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Comprehensive catalogue of track equipment: online since 1996.
http://www.businesscycles.com

Dear John,

It is somewhat disheartening to send your money in advance
and then discover that a) the product will never actually be
available and that b) neither will your money.

In this case, I don't know what's going on. The publisher's
current page . . .

http://www.cyclepublishing.com/cyclingbooks/dc.html

.. . . says "Availability: Sorry, it's been a monumental
task, and it's taking longer than anticipated. We now expect
it to come off the press 1 January 2005. It's worth the
wait!"

They certainly aren't saying that they're waiting until
enough orders accumulate, so let's hope that my gloomy
notions are mistaken.

But the original poster seems to say that Amazon now expects
the book to be available in February. Some months ago, the
book was said to be coming out last October.

I'll be pleased if it turns out that it's just been "a
monumental task" and that the book will be available in a
few months--the life of a small publishing house is not
easy.

But if I were asked to explain how the situation differs
from vaporware or similar publishing events, I'd be forced
to change the subject to how nice the weather was today.

With luck, no one will remind me of my previous hopeful
posts about the original October publication date:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22dancing+chain%22+carl&hl=en&lr=&group=rec.bicycles.tech&scoring=d&selm=ih2h90lelricrbeuoh7jpsk2hqse9ir70d%404ax.com&rnum=3

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22dancing+chain%22+carl&hl=en&lr=&group=rec.bicycles.tech&scoring=d&selm=d61cm09h6v53i15ub5k99jnuftkntd8aei%404ax.com&rnum=2

Eeyore

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just received notice that "The Dancing Chain" by Frank Berto will be
shipping around 2/5/2005 to people who have ordered it through
Amazon.com
For those who have not yet ordered a copy of this fine history of the
derailleur, it is available through the following link:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1892495414/ref=ase_veluninc/
The current Amazon pre-order price is $32.97, which is a savings of 34%
off the list price of $49.95.

B. Lafferty said:

Excellent book. The price has gone up from the first edition.

As with so many things, I bought mine at an independent
bookstore, from the owner herself, and paid cover price.
One small step to keeping real bookstores available to me.

IMHO Frank's book, while pricey, is a good read.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Gary Young said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Excellent book. The price has gone up from the first edition.

I read somewhere that this is a substantial rewrite, with Berto being
the sole author. In my opinion, that's probably a good thing, since
the major flaw with the first edition was that its parts didn't hang
together as well as they might.

I agree. The first edition was very interesting, if you're really into
bike history and technical details. But it badly needed an editor's
strong hand.

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Amit said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Excellent book. The price has gone up from the first edition.

it's too bad, this guy made a career writing articles about crossover
vs. alpine gearing and plotting logarithmic gearcharts,

To be more accurate, he made that his hobby or avocation. He had a
career as an engineer.

stuff that

Quoted message said:

seems so quaint now, but no one cares about.

When he did it, many people cared a lot, and learned a lot from him.
Most people aren't nearly as successful or valued.

Now he's found something else interesting to write about. I think he's
doing very well!

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

[email hidden] (Amit) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Excellent book. The price has gone up from the first edition.

it's too bad, this guy made a career writing articles about crossover
vs. alpine gearing and plotting logarithmic gearcharts, stuff that
seems so quaint now, but no one cares about.

Back then we didn't have 8+ speeds. Half step plus granny worked very
well if you know what you were doing & used log log paper. I'd use log
log paper to day to know where my cross over redundant gears are, if I
could find the graph paper. Any suggestions on where to find it would
be deeply appreciated. John

John McGraw said:

[email hidden] (Amit) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Excellent book. The price has gone up from the first edition.

it's too bad, this guy made a career writing articles about crossover
vs. alpine gearing and plotting logarithmic gearcharts, stuff that
seems so quaint now, but no one cares about.

Back then we didn't have 8+ speeds. Half step plus granny worked very
well if you know what you were doing & used log log paper. I'd use log
log paper to day to know where my cross over redundant gears are, if I
could find the graph paper. Any suggestions on where to find it would
be deeply appreciated. John

I miss it too so I would be in on the "If you ding it deal". It might
be possible to print some but then you might have to write a program
to generate the proper lines.

--
Bill (?) Baka

On 3 Dec 2004 21:41:49 -0800, [email hidden] (John

McGraw) said:

[email hidden] (Amit) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Excellent book. The price has gone up from the first edition.

it's too bad, this guy made a career writing articles about crossover
vs. alpine gearing and plotting logarithmic gearcharts, stuff that
seems so quaint now, but no one cares about.

Back then we didn't have 8+ speeds. Half step plus granny worked very
well if you know what you were doing & used log log paper. I'd use log
log paper to day to know where my cross over redundant gears are, if I
could find the graph paper. Any suggestions on where to find it would
be deeply appreciated. John

Dear John,

This company may have what you want:

http://www.artstuff.net/logarithmic_paper.htm

Or embrace spreadsheets--just enter two or three columns of
cells, one column for each of your front sprockets. In each
column, divide the front teeth repeatedly by the teeth on
the rear cogs. This will let you see the ratios in
excruciating detail after the spreadsheet does the division:

53/11
53/12
53/14
53/aa 39/11
53/bb 39/12
53/cc 39/14
53/dd 39/aa
53/ee 39/bb
53/ff 39/cc
53/gg 39/dd
39/ee
39/ff
39/ff

Or go to http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/ and enjoy
Sheldon's gear calculator, with optional slide-rule version.
Due to Sheldon's notoriously lax programming, it doesn't
handle Sherman tanks or Darth Vader's Imperial Walkers, but
it's free and works for bicycles.

Carl Fogel

On 3 Dec 2004 21:41:49 -0800, [email hidden] (John

McGraw) said:

[email hidden] (Amit) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Excellent book. The price has gone up from the first edition.

it's too bad, this guy made a career writing articles about crossover
vs. alpine gearing and plotting logarithmic gearcharts, stuff that
seems so quaint now, but no one cares about.

Back then we didn't have 8+ speeds. Half step plus granny worked very
well if you know what you were doing & used log log paper. I'd use log
log paper to day to know where my cross over redundant gears are, if I
could find the graph paper. Any suggestions on where to find it would
be deeply appreciated. John

Dear John,

Here's a page with a variety of pdf examples of engineering
paper that you could scale up or down and print to your
heart's content:

http://www.csun.edu/~vceed002/ref/measurement/data/graph_paper.html

It has various log-log and semi-log and possibly even
lincoln log examples.

Carl Fogel

g-spot <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted post said:

Just received notice that "The Dancing Chain" by Frank Berto will be
shipping around 2/5/2005 to people who have ordered it through
Amazon.com

For those who have not yet ordered a copy of this fine history of the
derailleur, it is available through the following link:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1892495414/ref=ase_veluninc/

The current Amazon pre-order price is $32.97, which is a savings of 34%
off the list price of $49.95.

I have that book; I rate it excellent. It is really one-of-a-kind if you're
into that sort of thing. I don't know why Berto is the only listed author,
there are three.

The ironic thing is that he lives in Marin & his wife is an avid horse
person & rabidly anti Mt. Bike, but I still appreciate & thank him for
his research in the '80s. He actually had a small lab / shop where he
ran drive trains & evaluated their performance. Shimango stole the
"slant parallelogram" (IIRC) from Sun Tour (What's new?) & refined it.
At the time slant, parallelogram, sounded like just more industry
hype. He was the first person I'm aware of who said that this system
is actually vastly superior. At that time when Shimango was just
coming out w/ indexed, I think Berto knew about as much as Shimano
about the dynamics of chains, teeth, & derailers, perhaps more. Berto
or some wise sole says that if not for the slant parallelogram, we
probably would not have indexed shifting today. And I don't want to
hear a bunch of retro grouch [censored], I've ridden for far more years w/
friction than indexed, & I'll take indexed anyday, Thank You Very
Much!
John

John McGraw said:

...
Back then we didn't have 8+ speeds. Half step plus granny worked very
well if you know what you were doing & used log log paper. I'd use log
log paper to day to know where my cross over redundant gears are, if I
could find the graph paper. Any suggestions on where to find it would
be deeply appreciated.

In previous years, most college bookstores would have had log-log paper
and semi-log - log paper, etc. (I probably still have some leftover
sheets of it around.)

Most spreadsheet programs can produce log-log graphs.

--
Tom Sherman - Rock Island County Illinois
Tetrahedral carbon lattices are not forever.