The Curezone

In article <[email hidden]>,

David said:

"Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

David said:

Stop being such a putz.

You're the one calling anyone who disagrees with your advocacy of
alternative medicine a "hatemonger." IMHO, that means your label of
"putz" applies to you better than it does to me.

You do understand that I and many other people do not care about your
"opinion", right?

A better question would have been to ask whether *I* care that you don't
care about my opinion. I don't.

In any case, for someone who says he doesn't care about my opinion, you
certainly do respond to my posts frequently. Methinks thou dost protest
too much. If you care so little about my opinion, no one's forcing you
to read my posts or to respond to them. You do that on your own.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5I03b.2325$_

Quoted message said:

Alternative or natural healing is all about understanding. It is that way
because MD's never prescribe anything that isn't manufactured by a drug
company.

[censored]. MDs prescribe alternative remedies regularly.

Quoted message said:

So, those of us who do "understand" are forced to either self
prescribe, or, if we are smarter than you, we would know enough to consult

a

Quoted message said:

wholistic doctor, a homeopath, a naturopath, a Chinese medical

practitioner, an

Quoted message said:

alternative medicine MD, an accupuncturist, a reflexologist, a

herbologist,

Quoted message said:

and others who do "understand". The really good news is that the mentally
astute are heading toward survival in a tough world and the pretend
scientists are heading, well, lets just say in other directions. To

express

Quoted message said:

this thought in another way, "Mother Nature" is in charge, not man.
Scientists do not rule, they live by the permission of nature.

Your adorable misrepresentation of the position of the vast majority of
people connected with evidence based medicine is a touching insult.
However, it is still only your incorrect opinion. You can't back it up with
anything except conspiracy theories or outright lies. Very few scientific
thinkers would disagree with your last two sentences. But that, clearly,
doesn't stop you from smearing them with this oft repeated insinuation.

Quoted message said:

While I am at it, I want to use a quote from a good doctor. Dr. Phil, who
says, "Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing", Mr. Dog.

Those who claim that they have nothing to hide are almost always lying.

le moo

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

For those of you who want to see an alternative health newsgroup with

useful

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information, go to the curezone. It is not a chatroom, it is monitored

and

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the hatemongers are banned.

I looked. I read messages there from people with serious conditions who

are

Quoted message said:

being encouraged to ignore the advice of their MDs and self treat their
ailments. There isn't a hint of skepticism in any of the responses I

read.

Quoted message said:

So I suppose that means that your definition of "hatemonger" is anyone

who

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

doubts the word of anyone who preaches there.

"Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I looked. I read messages there from people with serious conditions who

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

being encouraged to ignore the advice of their MDs and self treat their
ailments. There isn't a hint of skepticism in any of the responses I

read.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So I suppose that means that your definition of "hatemonger" is anyone

who

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

doubts the word of anyone who preaches there.

That's exactly it. If you question any of the altie "remedies" being
pushed there, no matter how politely or respectfully you do it, you are
a threat and will be labeled a "hatemonger" and kicked off the board.
Imagine if a discussion group dedicated to conventional medical
treatments kicked out people who advocated alternative treatments. Can
you guess what the reaction of the alties around here would be?

One of the first messages I read was a pleading inquiry from a man who has
1.5 - 2cm gallstones. He was concerned because his doctor told him that the
bile duct cannot pass any stone larger than a few millimetres. This is a
simple observation from thousands of autopsies and pathology examinations.
He wanted, very much, to use the gall / liver flush but just couldn't get
his head around the apparent impossibility of the claims. There were
actually two separate posts like this. The *only* response was for him to
ignore his doctor's advice entirely. Mostly because doctors make money from
surgery. However, his doctor had pointed out that emergency surgery is far
more costly and risky than scheduled laparoscopic surgery. Can anyone here
justify the position of curezone.com (removing anyone who supports this
man's suspicions)? Can anyone explain how the claims of the people
recommending the liver flush (that the bile duct can pass stones up to 2cm)
can possibly be true? It's like claiming that a woman can have a 20kg baby
by natural delivery.
moo

Orac said:

Quoted message said:

For those still grapling with things, think of it like the "Law of Gravity".
Whether you believe it exists or not, has no power because it continues to
work in exactly the same way.

Funny, but that's almost EXACTLY what I like to tell alties when they
tell me about their therapies that appear not to conform to any known
natural law (like homeopathy, for instance) or to any known anatomic or
physiological process (too numerous to mention). Just because you don't
believe that the laws of physiology and nature don't exist doesn't mean
that they don't.

If you break the laws of physics...

who is going to arrest you ?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Happy Dog said:

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5I03b.2325$_

Quoted message said:

Alternative or natural healing is all about understanding. It is that way
because MD's never prescribe anything that isn't manufactured by a drug
company.

[censored]. MDs prescribe alternative remedies regularly.

Indeed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, those of us who do "understand" are forced to either self
prescribe, or, if we are smarter than you, we would know enough to consult

a

Quoted message said:

wholistic doctor, a homeopath, a naturopath, a Chinese medical

practitioner, an

Quoted message said:

alternative medicine MD, an accupuncturist, a reflexologist, a

herbologist,

Quoted message said:

and others who do "understand". The really good news is that the mentally
astute are heading toward survival in a tough world and the pretend
scientists are heading, well, lets just say in other directions. To

express

Quoted message said:

this thought in another way, "Mother Nature" is in charge, not man.
Scientists do not rule, they live by the permission of nature.

Your adorable misrepresentation of the position of the vast majority of
people connected with evidence based medicine is a touching insult.
However, it is still only your incorrect opinion. You can't back it up with
anything except conspiracy theories or outright lies. Very few scientific
thinkers would disagree with your last two sentences. But that, clearly,
doesn't stop you from smearing them with this oft repeated insinuation.

Indeed. To my mind, scientists are far more respectful of nature than
the "naturopaths" described by folks like "Dave." Scientists actually
try to understand nature AS IT EXISTS, rather than according to some
belief system about how they think it is or should be. Scientists try to
deduce the laws according to which nature actually works, not idealized
laws by which they wished nature worked (as many alties do).
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Orac said:

Quoted message said:

That's exactly it. If you question any of the altie "remedies" being
pushed there, no matter how politely or respectfully you do it, you are
a threat and will be labeled a "hatemonger" and kicked off the board.
Imagine if a discussion group dedicated to conventional medical
treatments kicked out people who advocated alternative treatments. Can
you guess what the reaction of the alties around here would be?
--

My reference to "hatemongers" was a specific reference
to those individuals who appear to seek out anyone who has an alternative

thought and

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rush to attack it out of an apparent state of ignorance.

Specific examples please.

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We work with people who are on prescribed medications every single day.

Day

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after day. The number one reason that people come to us seeking natural

ways

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is because they aren't getting better utilizing prescription medications.
They have been able to recognize that medications take natural things and
make them into UNnatural compounds that de-activate healing capabilities.
These people are able to "understand" that if they want to get better,

they

Quoted message said:

will have to adopt a path to slowly eliminate prescribed medications in
order to allow the natural supplements to restore their intended body
function. Medications, by their very nature, are an impediment to the
restoration of our immune system.

This sounds wonderful. But there is little evidence in favour of it and
much of it is simply incorrect. What is a "medication"? How does it differ
from, say, a "liver flush"?

Quoted message said:

For those still grapling with things, think of it like the "Law of

Gravity".

Quoted message said:

Whether you believe it exists or not, has no power because it continues to
work in exactly the same way.

This self-serving bit of solipsism smugly assumes that the alternative cures
you promote have effects that are as verifiable as gravity. The fact is
that they aren't. For instance what is the evidence that people can avoid
gall bladder surgery if they have calcified stones that are many times
bigger than the bile duct. Curezone has posters who claim that these
stones can be passed if a liver flush is used. It is also claimed that the
bile duct can distend to diameters much larger than the scientific community
believes. This is such an enormously unlikely claim (as it appears
physically impossible) that some hard proof is needed. Got any? Try to
keep them as simple as observations of gravity, since you claim they are.
moo

No problemo............
"Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

David said:

"Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"David" <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Stop being such a putz.

You're the one calling anyone who disagrees with your advocacy of
alternative medicine a "hatemonger." IMHO, that means your label of
"putz" applies to you better than it does to me.

You do understand that I and many other people do not care about your
"opinion", right?

A better question would have been to ask whether *I* care that you don't
care about my opinion. I don't.

In any case, for someone who says he doesn't care about my opinion, you
certainly do respond to my posts frequently. Methinks thou dost protest
too much. If you care so little about my opinion, no one's forcing you
to read my posts or to respond to them. You do that on your own.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I looked. I read messages there from people with serious conditions who

are being encouraged to ignore the advice of their MDs and self treat

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ailments. There isn't a hint of skepticism in any of the responses I

read.

Oh, poor dawg cannot attack people there, Awwww.

Forget about attacking, there wasn't anything but total acceptance of the
claims I read.
erf

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave said:

Alternative or natural healing is all about understanding.

In Dave the Spamming Scumbag's case, it's all about understanding how
to get people to buy ginseng from him.

Quoted message said:

It is that way because MD's never prescribe anything that isn't
manufactured by a drug company.

Hahahaha. What a card.

Quoted message said:

So, those of us who do "understand" are forced to either self
prescribe, or, if we are smarter than you, we would know enough to
consult a wholistic doctor, a homeopath, a naturopath, a Chinese
medical practitioner, an alternative medicine MD, an accupuncturist,
a reflexologist, a herbologist, and others who do "understand".

Exactly what it is they understand remains unclear.

Quoted message said:

The really good news is that the mentally astute

That leaves you out.

Quoted message said:

Scientists do not rule, they live by the permission of nature.

Spammers don't rule either.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

In article <[email hidden]>,

Orac said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

David said:

Stop being such a putz.

You're the one calling anyone who disagrees with your advocacy of
alternative medicine a "hatemonger." IMHO, that means your label of
"putz" applies to you better than it does to me.

I'd like to think you can come up with a better response than "I know
you are, but what am I?"

However, I suggest a more direct approach, which I took a few minutes
ago, and dump the useless "medtools" into your killfile. I finally
ran out of patience for his untrimmed posts, his know-nothing abuse of
others, and his unfunny one-line responses. (He apparently thinks
he's a real panic, but I suspect he's alone in that belief.)

If he ever starts writing anything worth reading, someone please do
let me know. He's done it occasionally in the past, but nothing I've
seen recently.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

In article <[email hidden]>,

WB said:

If you break the laws of physics...

who is going to arrest you ?

300,000 km/sec -- it's not just a good idea. It's the LAW.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: The Curezone
From: [email hidden] (David Wright)
Date: 8/27/2003 7:20 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave said:

Alternative or natural healing is all about understanding.

In Dave the Spamming Scumbag's case, it's all about understanding how
to get people to buy ginseng from him.

People who sell are not scumbags.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is that way because MD's never prescribe anything that isn't
manufactured by a drug company.

Hahahaha. What a card.

Hehehe. What a grump.

Quoted message said:

So, those of us who do "understand" are forced to either self

Quoted message said:

prescribe, or, if we are smarter than you, we would know enough to
consult a wholistic doctor, a homeopath, a naturopath, a Chinese
medical practitioner, an alternative medicine MD, an accupuncturist,
a reflexologist, a herbologist, and others who do "understand".

Quoted message said:

Exactly what it is they understand remains unclear.

To those who have no actual experience and are brainwashed.

It you eever had a need to go to one, your head and grumpiness might clear up.

Quoted message said:

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The really good news is that the mentally astute

That leaves you out.

Yeah, he needs some giants standing on his shoulders.

Real smart.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Scientists do not rule, they live by the permission of nature.

Spammers don't rule either.

Nobody said they did.

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: The Curezone
From: [email hidden] (David Wright)
Date: 8/27/2003 7:23 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

In article <[email hidden]>,

Orac said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

David said:

Stop being such a putz.

You're the one calling anyone who disagrees with your advocacy of
alternative medicine a "hatemonger." IMHO, that means your label of
"putz" applies to you better than it does to me.

I'd like to think you can come up with a better response than "I know
you are, but what am I?"

However, I suggest a more direct approach, which I took a few minutes
ago, and dump the useless "medtools" into your killfile. I finally
ran out of patience for his untrimmed posts, his know-nothing abuse of
others, and his unfunny one-line responses. (He apparently thinks
he's a real panic, but I suspect he's alone in that belief.)

Sure glad you never hand out any abuse.

Quoted message said:

If he ever starts writing anything worth reading, someone please do
let me know. He's done it occasionally in the past, but nothing I've
seen recently.

Touche.

[email hidden] (Mark Probert) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

HD, I have been reading the Curezone for a few days. I gravitted to
the Hulda Quack forum as I thought it would be interesting.

There is a poster there, "The Skeptic" who seems to have had at least
one message deleted, and is being giving hell for having a differing
opinion.

Is there something wrong with these people's mental abilities?

Individually, probably not. But one of the dangers of a "fellowshipping"
environment like Curezone is that their collective abilities may be less
than the sum of their individual abilities because of the amplification of
dogma, the discouragement of reality checking, and the discouragement of
expressions of doubt. No-disagreement-allowed fora like Curezone serve the
same function as religious fellowshipping; the creation of near-fanatic
self-certainty and devotion to the party line.

No, there is something "wrong" with yours.
"Mark Probert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Happy Dog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

> I looked. I read messages there from people with serious conditions

who

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are

Quoted message said:

> being encouraged to ignore the advice of their MDs and self treat

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> ailments. There isn't a hint of skepticism in any of the responses

I

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Quoted message said:

read.

Quoted message said:

> So I suppose that means that your definition of "hatemonger" is

anyone

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Quoted message said:

who

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> doubts the word of anyone who preaches there.

That's exactly it. If you question any of the altie "remedies" being
pushed there, no matter how politely or respectfully you do it, you

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a threat and will be labeled a "hatemonger" and kicked off the board.
Imagine if a discussion group dedicated to conventional medical
treatments kicked out people who advocated alternative treatments. Can
you guess what the reaction of the alties around here would be?

One of the first messages I read was a pleading inquiry from a man who

has

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1.5 - 2cm gallstones. He was concerned because his doctor told him that

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bile duct cannot pass any stone larger than a few millimetres. This is

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

simple observation from thousands of autopsies and pathology

examinations.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He wanted, very much, to use the gall / liver flush but just couldn't

get

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

his head around the apparent impossibility of the claims. There were
actually two separate posts like this. The *only* response was for him

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ignore his doctor's advice entirely. Mostly because doctors make money

from

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

surgery. However, his doctor had pointed out that emergency surgery is

far

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more costly and risky than scheduled laparoscopic surgery. Can anyone

here

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

justify the position of curezone.com (removing anyone who supports this
man's suspicions)? Can anyone explain how the claims of the people
recommending the liver flush (that the bile duct can pass stones up to

2cm)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can possibly be true? It's like claiming that a woman can have a 20kg

baby

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

by natural delivery.

HD, I have been reading the Curezone for a few days. I gravitted to
the Hulda Quack forum as I thought it would be interesting.

There is a poster there, "The Skeptic" who seems to have had at least
one message deleted, and is being giving hell for having a differing
opinion.

Is there something wrong with these people's mental abilities?

You are immensely welcome.
"Mark Probert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No, there is something "wrong" with yours.

Thank you for your opinion.

Quoted message said:

"Mark Probert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Happy Dog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

> "Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > I looked. I read messages there from people with serious

conditions

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Quoted message said:

who
are

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> > > being encouraged to ignore the advice of their MDs and self

treat

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Quoted message said:

their

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> > > ailments. There isn't a hint of skepticism in any of the

responses

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Quoted message said:

I
read.

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> > > So I suppose that means that your definition of "hatemonger" is

anyone
who

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> > > doubts the word of anyone who preaches there.
> >
> > That's exactly it. If you question any of the altie "remedies"

being

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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > pushed there, no matter how politely or respectfully you do it,

you

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Quoted message said:

are

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> > a threat and will be labeled a "hatemonger" and kicked off the

board.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Imagine if a discussion group dedicated to conventional medical
> > treatments kicked out people who advocated alternative treatments.

Can

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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > you guess what the reaction of the alties around here would be?
>
> One of the first messages I read was a pleading inquiry from a man

who

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Quoted message said:

has

Quoted message said:

> 1.5 - 2cm gallstones. He was concerned because his doctor told him

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the

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> bile duct cannot pass any stone larger than a few millimetres. This

is

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Quoted message said:

a

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> simple observation from thousands of autopsies and pathology

examinations.

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> He wanted, very much, to use the gall / liver flush but just couldn'

t

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Quoted message said:

get

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> his head around the apparent impossibility of the claims. There

were

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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> actually two separate posts like this. The *only* response was for

him

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Quoted message said:

to

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> ignore his doctor's advice entirely. Mostly because doctors make

money

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Quoted message said:

from

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> surgery. However, his doctor had pointed out that emergency surgery

is

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Quoted message said:

far

Quoted message said:

> more costly and risky than scheduled laparoscopic surgery. Can

anyone

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Quoted message said:

here

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> justify the position of curezone.com (removing anyone who supports

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> man's suspicions)? Can anyone explain how the claims of the people
> recommending the liver flush (that the bile duct can pass stones up

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2cm)

Quoted message said:

> can possibly be true? It's like claiming that a woman can have a

20kg

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

baby

Quoted message said:

> by natural delivery.

HD, I have been reading the Curezone for a few days. I gravitted to
the Hulda Quack forum as I thought it would be interesting.

There is a poster there, "The Skeptic" who seems to have had at least
one message deleted, and is being giving hell for having a differing
opinion.

Is there something wrong with these people's mental abilities?