That six month sentence

Richard said:

For those of you wanting some more info, there's this:

http://www.norfolk.police.uk/article.cfm?artID=3954&catID=568

"A silver Vauxhall Corsa was turning right out of Beeston Road onto the
A149 towards Weybourne when, for reasons unknown, it was involved in a
collision with a Raleigh Coral pedal cycle waiting to turn into Beeston
Road."

So the cyclist was waiting to turn right into the road that the driver
was turning right out of, according to this report. I must confess that
I find that hard to correlate with "Nobody knows precisely where the
cyclist had come from, but it is one possibility that she had come off
the pavement to cross the road", unless the cyclist was riding straight
off the opposite pavement. The police report clearly says "waiting to
turn into", though, which suggests "waiting in the middle of the road".

R.

Thanks for that additional information, Richard. Seems quite straight
forward, doesn't it? Leads one to ask whether the old biddy had had her
eyes tested recently? Also, should there be a maximum age limit for
drivers? What should it be?
--
Michael MacClancy

Richard said:

For those of you wanting some more info, there's this:

http://www.norfolk.police.uk/article.cfm?artID=3954&catID=568

"A silver Vauxhall Corsa was turning right out of Beeston Road onto the
A149 towards Weybourne when, for reasons unknown, it was involved in a
collision with a Raleigh Coral pedal cycle waiting to turn into Beeston
Road."

So the cyclist was waiting to turn right into the road that the driver
was turning right out of, according to this report. I must confess that
I find that hard to correlate with "Nobody knows precisely where the
cyclist had come from, but it is one possibility that she had come off
the pavement to cross the road", unless the cyclist was riding straight
off the opposite pavement. The police report clearly says "waiting to
turn into", though, which suggests "waiting in the middle of the road".

R.

One of the junctions on my commute is just like that and I have lost
track of the number of cars that pull out of the side road while I am
waiting to turn right into the side road, a number of the drivers have
used the SMIDSY defence.

Allan

Richard said:

For those of you wanting some more info, there's this:

http://www.norfolk.police.uk/article.cfm?artID=3954&catID=568

"A silver Vauxhall Corsa was turning right out of Beeston Road onto
the A149 towards Weybourne when, for reasons unknown, it was involved
in a collision with a Raleigh Coral pedal cycle waiting to turn into
Beeston Road."

So the cyclist was waiting to turn right into the road that the driver
was turning right out of, according to this report. I must confess
that I find that hard to correlate with "Nobody knows precisely where
the cyclist had come from, but it is one possibility that she had
come off the pavement to cross the road", unless the cyclist was
riding straight off the opposite pavement. The police report clearly
says "waiting to turn into", though, which suggests "waiting in the
middle of the road".
R.

The discrepancy between the newspaper article description, when the police
were seeking further information,

" pedal cycle waiting to turn into Beeston Road."

and the briefs comment in court:

"She turned right [out of Beeston Road] and, when she
straightened up, the bicycle was across the front of the car."

Suggest that possibly the initial newspaper report was base on an assumption
as :meeting the cyclist "after straightening" up is not consistent with
"waiting to turn into" and the brief's mitigation must be consistent with
the facts as presented to the court.

Clearly the facts are not straightforward and neither report give enough
information to form a view one way or the other.

pk

dkahn400 said:

Allan (delete) said:

One of the junctions on my commute is just like that and I
have lost track of the number of cars that pull out of the
side road while I am waiting to turn right into the side
road, a number of the drivers have used the SMIDSY defence.

A cyclist in that situation is particularly vulnerable. It's
interesting that the cyclist was waiting to turn right into the very
side road that the motorist was happy to turn right from. Pure
speculation of course, but I wonder if there was traffic approaching
from the motorist's right. The cyclist may have decided to wait for the
hazard to pass while the motorist may have decided she could beat the
oncoming traffic by flooring it.

on the junction on my route the majority of cars from the side road turn
right onto the main road and the majority of cars coming towards the
cyclist turn left into the side road so cars making a right turn from
the side road normally turn into the main road when they see a car
indicatinga left turn into the side road.

Quoted message said:

Whether that actually happened in this case or not, it's a fairly
common scenario and it would explain why the motorist didn't see they
cyclist. Was she keeping her attention on the threat to her own safety
coming from the right. It might be well for cyclists to be aware of
this situation and try to position themselves accordingly. --
Dave...

I have had a couple of drivers make eye contact with me then pull out.

Allan

pk said:

Richard said:

For those of you wanting some more info, there's this:

http://www.norfolk.police.uk/article.cfm?artID=3954&catID=568

"A silver Vauxhall Corsa was turning right out of Beeston Road onto
the A149 towards Weybourne when, for reasons unknown, it was involved
in a collision with a Raleigh Coral pedal cycle waiting to turn into
Beeston Road."

So the cyclist was waiting to turn right into the road that the driver
was turning right out of, according to this report. I must confess
that I find that hard to correlate with "Nobody knows precisely where
the cyclist had come from, but it is one possibility that she had
come off the pavement to cross the road", unless the cyclist was
riding straight off the opposite pavement. The police report clearly
says "waiting to turn into", though, which suggests "waiting in the
middle of the road".
R.

The discrepancy between the newspaper article description, when the police
were seeking further information,

" pedal cycle waiting to turn into Beeston Road."

and the briefs comment in court:

"She turned right [out of Beeston Road] and, when she
straightened up, the bicycle was across the front of the car."

Suggest that possibly the initial newspaper report was base on an assumption
as :meeting the cyclist "after straightening" up is not consistent with
"waiting to turn into" and the brief's mitigation must be consistent with
the facts as presented to the court.

Clearly the facts are not straightforward and neither report give enough
information to form a view one way or the other.

Well, not enough for some, indeed. Not everyone seems to be that
reasonable, sadly.

--
Trevor Barton

Richard composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

For those of you wanting some more info, there's this:

http://www.norfolk.police.uk/article.cfm?artID=3954&catID=568

"A silver Vauxhall Corsa was turning right out of Beeston Road onto the
A149 towards Weybourne when, for reasons unknown, it was involved in a
collision with a Raleigh Coral pedal cycle waiting to turn into Beeston
Road."

Which puts the incident in a whole new light.

Makes one (well, me anyway) wonder how the original article could be so
different in character.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

Trevor Barton said:

pk said:

Richard said:

For those of you wanting some more info, there's this:

http://www.norfolk.police.uk/article.cfm?artID=3954&catID=568

"A silver Vauxhall Corsa was turning right out of Beeston Road onto
the A149 towards Weybourne when, for reasons unknown, it was involved
in a collision with a Raleigh Coral pedal cycle waiting to turn into
Beeston Road."

So the cyclist was waiting to turn right into the road that the driver
was turning right out of, according to this report. I must confess
that I find that hard to correlate with "Nobody knows precisely where
the cyclist had come from, but it is one possibility that she had
come off the pavement to cross the road", unless the cyclist was
riding straight off the opposite pavement. The police report clearly
says "waiting to turn into", though, which suggests "waiting in the
middle of the road".
R.

The discrepancy between the newspaper article description, when the police
were seeking further information,

" pedal cycle waiting to turn into Beeston Road."

and the briefs comment in court:

"She turned right [out of Beeston Road] and, when she
straightened up, the bicycle was across the front of the car."

Suggest that possibly the initial newspaper report was base on an assumption
as :meeting the cyclist "after straightening" up is not consistent with
"waiting to turn into" and the brief's mitigation must be consistent with
the facts as presented to the court.

Clearly the facts are not straightforward and neither report give enough
information to form a view one way or the other.

Well, not enough for some, indeed. Not everyone seems to be that
reasonable, sadly.

Both reports, however, seem to agree that the driver was turning from a
minor road onto a major road. Traffic law suggests that she should
have given way to every bit of traffic on that major road, be it coming
from left, right, or straight ahead.

R.

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:56:15 +0000 someone who may be Richard
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Both reports, however, seem to agree that the driver was turning from a
minor road onto a major road. Traffic law suggests that she should
have given way to every bit of traffic on that major road, be it coming
from left, right, or straight ahead.

Agreed.

Sadly Trevor has not tried to discuss the issues, but instead has
busied himself having a go at others.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

Michael MacClancy said:

Richard said:

For those of you wanting some more info, there's this:

http://www.norfolk.police.uk/article.cfm?artID=3954&catID=568

"A silver Vauxhall Corsa was turning right out of Beeston Road onto the
A149 towards Weybourne when, for reasons unknown, it was involved in a
collision with a Raleigh Coral pedal cycle waiting to turn into Beeston
Road."

So the cyclist was waiting to turn right into the road that the driver
was turning right out of, according to this report. I must confess that
I find that hard to correlate with "Nobody knows precisely where the
cyclist had come from, but it is one possibility that she had come off
the pavement to cross the road", unless the cyclist was riding straight
off the opposite pavement. The police report clearly says "waiting to
turn into", though, which suggests "waiting in the middle of the road".

R.

Thanks for that additional information, Richard. Seems quite straight
forward, doesn't it? Leads one to ask whether the old biddy had had her
eyes tested recently? Also, should there be a maximum age limit for
drivers? What should it be?

Although it is possible that her eyesight was not up to it, perception
involves a lot more than just seeing. The optical equipment can be in
excellent condition while what goes on in the data-processing department
afterwards can be very different.

A maximum age limit for driving would be at least as iniquitous as any
other age limit. What counts is the person's ability to consistently
drive responsibly to an adequate standard. If you can do that, I don't
know what your age should have to do with it.

The problem is that it is not too hard to find someone's age and damned
difficult to demonstrate that someone will consistently drive
responsibly to an adequate standard.

--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

Paul - censored said:

Richard composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

For those of you wanting some more info, there's this:

http://www.norfolk.police.uk/article.cfm?artID=3954&catID=568

"A silver Vauxhall Corsa was turning right out of Beeston Road onto the
A149 towards Weybourne when, for reasons unknown, it was involved in a
collision with a Raleigh Coral pedal cycle waiting to turn into Beeston
Road."

Which puts the incident in a whole new light.

Makes one (well, me anyway) wonder how the original article could be so
different in character.

Talking generally and not suggesting anything about those involved in
this case; it sometimes happens that after a guilty plea (so little has
been heard in court of the facts of the case) that the subsequent
mitigation is rather imaginitive and shows a creative attitude to facts.

When this happens the prosecution can either shrug and ignore it, or
object to whatever has been alleged. If the court agrees that the
argument is worth hearing, there will be a "proof in mitigation"
(Scotland; not sure if England & Wales is identical). This amounts to a
trial for the facts being argued over. Mostly, nobody wants to do this,
because it wastes most or all of the time saved by the plea, but it
still sometimes happens.

It could also happen after a contested trial, but is less likely.

--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 17:26:01 +0000, JLB wrote in
<[email hidden]>, seen in uk.rec.cycling:

[...]

Quoted message said:

The problem is that it is not too hard to find someone's age and damned
difficult to demonstrate that someone will consistently drive
responsibly to an adequate standard.

I drive trains for a living.

To check that I can drive responsibly to an adequate standard and am
fit to do so, I was until recently required to take a competence test
every two years (we're now 'continually' assessed, which is a stricter
way of doing it, involving black box data as well as shorter but more
frequent competence tests) and required to have a medical every 5
years (more frequently as I get older).

I'm not going to suggest that road licencing should be as strict,
because it would be effectively unworkable, but I do wonder if the
system shouldn't require (as a minimum) retests every 10 years,
perhaps on the expiry of the photo-licence.

--
Ross, in Lincoln
Reply-to address will bounce; replace "junk-trap" with "me" for e-mail

David Hansen said:

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:56:15 +0000 someone who may be Richard
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Both reports, however, seem to agree that the driver was turning from a
minor road onto a major road. Traffic law suggests that she should
have given way to every bit of traffic on that major road, be it coming
from left, right, or straight ahead.

Agreed.

Sadly Trevor has not tried to discuss the issues, but instead has
busied himself having a go at others.

No, just you. Well, you and the one or two others who think dogma
and discussion are the same thing.

--
Trevor Barton

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:08:22 +0000 someone who may be Ross Hamilton
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

To check that I can drive responsibly to an adequate standard and am
fit to do so, I was until recently required to take a competence test
every two years (we're now 'continually' assessed, which is a stricter
way of doing it, involving black box data as well as shorter but more
frequent competence tests) and required to have a medical every 5
years (more frequently as I get older).

I gather that data recorders in police cars (in London for example)
have had some effect on the tendency of police officers to drive
under the influence of too much testosterone.

Quoted message said:

I do wonder if the
system shouldn't require (as a minimum) retests every 10 years,
perhaps on the expiry of the photo-licence.

If coupled with a proper eyesight test this would be a step in the
right direction.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:28:54 +0000, David Hansen wrote in
<[email hidden]>, seen in uk.rec.cycling:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:08:22 +0000 someone who may be Ross Hamilton
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

To check that I can drive responsibly to an adequate standard and am
fit to do so, I was until recently required to take a competence test
every two years (we're now 'continually' assessed, which is a stricter
way of doing it, involving black box data as well as shorter but more
frequent competence tests) and required to have a medical every 5
years (more frequently as I get older).

I gather that data recorders in police cars (in London for example)
have had some effect on the tendency of police officers to drive
under the influence of too much testosterone.

I suspect that data recorders which were downloaded as a matter of
course and checked after any incident (or indeed as part of any
traffic stop by police) would have a drastic effect on the behaviour
of some drivers.

Of course, for black box records to be reliable, a reliable speedo
setup has to be provided, which is of benefit to the drivers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I do wonder if the
system shouldn't require (as a minimum) retests every 10 years,
perhaps on the expiry of the photo-licence.

If coupled with a proper eyesight test this would be a step in the
right direction.

I was contemplating adding "and a medical" to the retest, but as there
is no real medical (AFAIK) associated with the basic car driving test,
it would be difficult to know what was required.

Your suggestion of an eyesight test is a good addition to the retest
and would weed out quite a few people who simply shouldn't be driving.

--
Ross, in Lincoln
Reply-to address will bounce; replace "junk-trap" with "me" for e-mail

David Hansen said:

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:08:22 +0000 someone who may be Ross Hamilton
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

To check that I can drive responsibly to an adequate standard and am
fit to do so, I was until recently required to take a competence test
every two years (we're now 'continually' assessed, which is a stricter
way of doing it, involving black box data as well as shorter but more
frequent competence tests) and required to have a medical every 5
years (more frequently as I get older).

I gather that data recorders in police cars (in London for example)
have had some effect on the tendency of police officers to drive
under the influence of too much testosterone.

This is typical of one of Dave Hansen's quips. Has he proved a causal
relationship between data recorders and testosterone levels in police
officers? Do the police officers wait for their testosterone levels to
fall before getting into their cars? Is it not possible that police
officers might drive better despite the same levels of testosterone?

Methinks Dave's been drinking too much whisky and it's addling his brain -
but that would be as stupid a conclusion as most of his.

--
Michael MacClancy

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:53:16 +0000, Richard
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

So the cyclist was waiting to turn right into the road that the driver
was turning right out of, according to this report. I must confess that
I find that hard to correlate with "Nobody knows precisely where the
cyclist had come from, but it is one possibility that she had come off
the pavement to cross the road", unless the cyclist was riding straight
off the opposite pavement. The police report clearly says "waiting to
turn into", though, which suggests "waiting in the middle of the road".

There you are then: cunningly concealed smack right in front of the
blind old bat's car. How could anyone expect to see a bike in such
circumstances?

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

Quoted message said:

Has he proved a causal
relationship between data recorders and testosterone levels in police
officers? Do the police officers wait for their testosterone levels
to fall before getting into their cars? Is it not possible that police
officers might drive better despite the same levels of testosterone?

Pedant tags?

Mark Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

Has he proved a causal
relationship between data recorders and testosterone levels in police
officers? Do the police officers wait for their testosterone levels
to fall before getting into their cars? Is it not possible that police
officers might drive better despite the same levels of testosterone?

Pedant tags?

Nice try

James Annan said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Has he proved a causal <blah-blah-snippity>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pedant tags?

Quoted message said:

Nice try

rotfl <dies laughing>