Thanksgiving dinner

Michael Balarama wrote: <snip>

Quoted message said:

I sat with this Doctor pediatrician who told me about the studies of Casein in milk causing
cancer...

The link is unproven. So are links between casein and nearly every other disease. It appears casein
is a scapegoat for everything from autism to cancer to senility to ADD-ADHD for those who write
(and read) pseudo-scientific literature. Yet repeated studies haven't borne links between casein
and such diseases.

Consider the following. A study comparing mice fed soy, whey, and casein (control group) diets had
some interesting findings. The mice were induced by chemical (DMBA) to have mammary tumors. When
100% of the casein-fed rats had at least one tumor, soy-fed rats had a lower tumor incidence (77%)
in experiment B (P < .002), but NOT in experiment A (P < 0.12), and there were NO differences in
tumor multiplicity. Whey-fed rats had lower mammary tumor incidence (54–62%; P < 0.002) and
multiplicity (P < .007) than casein-fed rats in both experiments. Our results indicate that diets
rich in soy reduce the incidence of chemically induced mammary tumors by approximately 20%.
Furthermore, whey appears to be at least twice as effective as soy in reducing both tumor incidence
and multiplicity.

[my emphasis for experiment A] cebp.aacrjournals.org113Open ↗

So at least one component of dairy (whey) seems to be quite beneficial, at least with DMBA-induced
tumors. Note that casein is typically used as a control protein. From the discussion section of the
full article: Studies involving dietary prevention of tumors often use casein as the "control"
protein source and compare all dietary effects to the results of groups fed casein. One possibility
not often discussed is that casein-fed rats could be at greater risk of developing DMBA-induced
mammary tumors than rats fed diets containing whey or soy protein isolate. If that were true, our
data would suggest that factors in casein and soy protein isolate could promote tumor formation
compared with whey. This is an area requiring further research.

That doesn't mean that casein-fed rats would grow more tumors absent the presence of DMBA. It's
still important to note the researchers' comparison of casein *and soy* to whey -- and soy may well
prove to be more problematic than casein. We already know soy can speed tumor multiplicity in some
types of cancer. Another study has found that "Genistein [phytoestrogen from soy protein isolate]
was effective in reducing tumor multiplicity, but it reduced tumor incidence only marginally.
Daidzein [the other soy phytoestrogen] was less effective in reducing both tumor incidence and
multiplicity." Soy has also been linked to certain kinds of cancer, including bladder cancer.

First source (phytoestrogens and breast cancer): lef.orgphpOpen ↗
ab325a.html#59

Second souce (bladder cancer study): tinyurl.comw76vOpen ↗

I agree with the study team above that more research is needed, but doctors who state that "casein
causes cancer" are making unscientific claims until such findings are made from studies.

"Michael Balarama" <[email hidden]> wrote in message <snip message>

Here's how I see things.

If you have a moral conviction to be a veg*n, or you feel that a veg*n diet improves your health,
then you don't need to make all kinds of silly things up to support it.

People drink milk for decades on end and never get cancer. It's only if you're doubting your choice
or you're trying to convince other people to join you who wouldn't otherwise do it, that you would
need to make up a bunch of inaccurate information.

Do you really WANT converts to come over based on lies? Or do you want them to come over because
they feel that it's the right thing for them to do even without all that hype about the dangers of
milk, meat, and eggs?

-Rubystars

"usual suspect" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Michael Balarama wrote: <snip>

Quoted message said:

I sat with this Doctor pediatrician who told me about the studies of Casein in milk causing
cancer...

The link is unproven. So are links between casein and nearly every other disease. It appears
casein is a scapegoat for everything from autism to cancer to senility to ADD-ADHD for those who
write (and read) pseudo-scientific literature. Yet repeated studies haven't borne links between
casein and such diseases.

Consider the following. A study comparing mice fed soy, whey, and casein (control group) diets had
some interesting findings. The mice were induced by chemical (DMBA) to have mammary tumors. When
100% of the casein-fed rats had at least one tumor, soy-fed rats had a lower tumor incidence (77%)
in experiment B (P < .002), but NOT in experiment A (P < 0.12), and there were NO differences in
tumor multiplicity. Whey-fed rats had lower mammary tumor incidence (54–62%; P < 0.002) and
multiplicity (P < .007) than casein-fed rats in both experiments. Our results indicate that diets
rich in soy reduce the incidence of chemically induced mammary tumors by approximately 20%.
Furthermore, whey appears to be at least twice as effective as soy in reducing both tumor
incidence and multiplicity.

[my emphasis for experiment A] cebp.aacrjournals.org113Open ↗

So at least one component of dairy (whey) seems to be quite beneficial, at least with DMBA-induced
tumors. Note that casein is typically used as a control protein. From the discussion section of
the full article: Studies involving dietary prevention of tumors often use casein as the "control"
protein source and compare all dietary effects to the results of groups fed casein. One
possibility not often discussed is that casein-fed rats could be at greater risk of developing DMBA-
induced mammary tumors than rats fed diets containing whey or soy protein isolate. If that were
true, our data would suggest that factors in casein and soy protein isolate could promote tumor
formation compared with whey. This is an area requiring further research.

That doesn't mean that casein-fed rats would grow more tumors absent the presence of DMBA. It's
still important to note the researchers' comparison of casein *and soy* to whey -- and soy may
well prove to be more problematic than casein. We already know soy can speed tumor multiplicity in
some types of cancer. Another study has found that "Genistein [phytoestrogen from soy protein
isolate] was effective in reducing tumor multiplicity, but it reduced tumor incidence only
marginally. Daidzein [the other soy phytoestrogen] was less effective in reducing both tumor
incidence and multiplicity." Soy has also been linked to certain kinds of cancer, including
bladder cancer.

First source (phytoestrogens and breast cancer): lef.orgphpOpen ↗
ab325a.html#59

Second souce (bladder cancer study): tinyurl.comw76vOpen ↗

I agree with the study team above that more research is needed, but doctors who state that "casein
causes cancer" are making unscientific claims until such findings are made from studies.

He did not say casein causes cancer-but spoke of the studies with mice you mentioned and talked
about China. but he said he personally does not take it (casein)..he said more studies are needed-
He lived in the Woodlands. Michael Nice man-don't meet many Vegan MD'S.

Michael Balarama said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I sat with this Doctor pediatrician who told me about the studies of Casein in milk causing
cancer...

The link is unproven. So are links between casein and nearly every other disease. It appears
casein is a scapegoat for everything from autism to cancer to senility to ADD-ADHD for those who
write (and read) pseudo-scientific literature. Yet repeated studies haven't borne links between
casein and such diseases.

Consider the following. A study comparing mice fed soy, whey, and casein (control group) diets had
some interesting findings. The mice were induced by chemical (DMBA) to have mammary tumors. When
100% of the casein-fed rats had at least one tumor, soy-fed rats had a lower tumor incidence (77%)
in experiment B (P < .002), but NOT in experiment A (P < 0.12), and there were NO differences in
tumor multiplicity. Whey-fed rats had lower mammary tumor incidence (54–62%; P < 0.002) and
multiplicity (P < .007) than casein-fed rats in both experiments. Our results indicate that diets
rich in soy reduce the incidence of chemically induced mammary tumors by approximately 20%.
Furthermore, whey appears to be at least twice as effective as soy in reducing both tumor
incidence and multiplicity.

[my emphasis for experiment A] cebp.aacrjournals.org113Open ↗

So at least one component of dairy (whey) seems to be quite beneficial, at least with DMBA-induced
tumors. Note that casein is typically used as a control protein. From the discussion section of
the full article: Studies involving dietary prevention of tumors often use casein as the "control"
protein source and compare all dietary effects to the results of groups fed casein. One
possibility not often discussed is that casein-fed rats could be at greater risk of developing DMBA-
induced mammary tumors than rats fed diets containing whey or soy protein isolate. If that were
true, our data would suggest that factors in casein and soy protein isolate could promote tumor
formation compared with whey. This is an area requiring further research.

That doesn't mean that casein-fed rats would grow more tumors absent the presence of DMBA. It's
still important to note the researchers' comparison of casein *and soy* to whey -- and soy may
well prove to be more problematic than casein. We already know soy can speed tumor multiplicity in
some types of cancer. Another study has found that "Genistein [phytoestrogen from soy protein
isolate] was effective in reducing tumor multiplicity, but it reduced tumor incidence only
marginally. Daidzein [the other soy phytoestrogen] was less effective in reducing both tumor
incidence and multiplicity." Soy has also been linked to certain kinds of cancer, including
bladder cancer.

First source (phytoestrogens and breast cancer): lef.orgphpOpen ↗
ab325a.html#59

Second souce (bladder cancer study): tinyurl.comw76vOpen ↗

I agree with the study team above that more research is needed, but doctors who state that "casein
causes cancer" are making unscientific claims until such findings are made from studies.

He did not say casein causes cancer-but spoke of the studies with mice you mentioned and talked
about China.

The Chinese suffer cancers, too. What's prevalent here isn't there, and what's prevalent there
isn't here.

Quoted message said:

but he said he personally does not take it (casein)..he said more studies are needed-

Good.

Quoted message said:

He lived in the Woodlands.

I'll remember that if I'm ever sick north of Houston.

Quoted message said:

Nice man-don't meet many Vegan MD'S.

No, but I wonder if he plays golf up there; everyone else does. I wonder if he knows how lethal golf
courses are for small animals, not to mention the effects on people with all the fertilizers and
herbicides they use. All that danger for a few hours of hitting a small ball into different holes.

"usual suspect" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Michael Balarama wrote:

snippage...

Quoted message said:

No, but I wonder if he plays golf up there; everyone else does. I wonder if he knows how lethal
golf courses are for small animals, not to mention the effects on people with all the
fertilizers and herbicides they use. All that danger for a few hours of hitting a small ball
into different holes.

======================
But, but, he makes up for all that death and suffering by eating tofurkey dinners instead! What a
hoot! The hypocrisy runneth over....

"usual suspect" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Michael Balarama said:

Quoted message said:

>I sat with this Doctor pediatrician who told me about the studies of Casein in milk causing
>cancer...

The link is unproven. So are links between casein and nearly every other disease. It appears
casein is a scapegoat for everything from autism to cancer to senility to ADD-ADHD for those who
write (and read) pseudo-scientific literature. Yet repeated studies haven't borne links between
casein and such diseases.

Consider the following. A study comparing mice fed soy, whey, and casein (control group) diets
had some interesting findings. The mice were induced by chemical (DMBA) to have mammary tumors.
When 100% of the casein-fed rats had at least one tumor, soy-fed rats had a lower tumor
incidence (77%) in experiment B (P < .002), but NOT in experiment A (P < 0.12), and there were
NO differences in tumor multiplicity. Whey-fed rats had lower mammary tumor incidence (54–62%; P
< 0.002) and multiplicity (P < .007) than casein-fed rats in both experiments. Our results
indicate that diets rich in soy reduce the incidence of chemically induced mammary tumors by
approximately 20%. Furthermore, whey appears to be at least twice as effective as soy in
reducing both tumor incidence and multiplicity.

[my emphasis for experiment A] cebp.aacrjournals.org113Open ↗

So at least one component of dairy (whey) seems to be quite beneficial, at least with DMBA-
induced tumors. Note that casein is typically used as a control protein. From the discussion
section of the full article: Studies involving dietary prevention of tumors often use casein as
the "control" protein source and compare all dietary effects to the results of groups fed
casein. One possibility not often discussed is that casein-fed rats could be at greater risk of
developing DMBA-induced mammary tumors than rats fed diets containing whey or soy protein
isolate. If that were true, our data would suggest that factors in casein and soy protein
isolate could promote tumor formation compared with whey. This is an area requiring further
research.

That doesn't mean that casein-fed rats would grow more tumors absent the presence of DMBA. It's
still important to note the researchers' comparison of casein *and soy* to whey -- and soy may
well prove to be more problematic than casein. We already know soy can speed tumor multiplicity
in some types of cancer. Another study has found that "Genistein [phytoestrogen from soy protein
isolate] was effective in reducing tumor multiplicity, but it reduced tumor incidence only
marginally. Daidzein [the other soy phytoestrogen] was less effective in reducing both tumor
incidence and multiplicity." Soy has also been linked to certain kinds of cancer, including
bladder cancer.

First source (phytoestrogens and breast cancer): lef.orgphpOpen ↗
ab325a.html#59

Second souce (bladder cancer study): tinyurl.comw76vOpen ↗

I agree with the study team above that more research is needed, but doctors who state that
"casein causes cancer" are making unscientific claims until such findings are made from studies.

He did not say casein causes cancer-but spoke of the studies with mice

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mentioned and talked about China.

The Chinese suffer cancers, too. What's prevalent here isn't there, and what's prevalent there
isn't here.

Quoted message said:

but he said he personally does not take it (casein)..he said more

studies

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are needed-

Good.

Quoted message said:

He lived in the Woodlands.

I'll remember that if I'm ever sick north of Houston.

Quoted message said:

Nice man-don't meet many Vegan MD'S.

No, but I wonder if he plays golf up there; everyone else does. I wonder if he knows how lethal
golf courses are for small animals, not to mention the effects on people with all the
fertilizers and herbicides they use. All that danger for a few hours of hitting a small ball
into different holes.

I don't think he is a golfer-small man-but he also talked about this other MD who spoke at a
previous vegetarian club meeting I happened to attend-this MD spoke of the life expectancy of
vegans vs meat eaters and his scientific conclusion was both have pretty similar life expectancy.
because of my legal background and quasi depositional personality people like to bring these points
up with me...I guess. Personally-My meat eating father is really old...I doubt if I will life to
his age. Michael