Testosterone test: isotope test

gabriel faure said:

The newspaper L'Equipe reported that the test performed by the Chatenay-
Malabry lab was the so-called (and sophisticated) "isotope" test which left
no doubt on whether the extra-testosterone was endogenous or exogenous.

There are many reports that say that Landis' samples have not had the
Carbon Isotope Ratio (CIR) test yet:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/outdoors/bal-sp.drugtest28jul28,0,5130570.story?coll=bal-sports-outdoors

gabriel faure said:

The newspaper L'Equipe reported that the test performed by the Chatenay-
Malabry lab was the so-called (and sophisticated) "isotope" test which left
no doubt on whether the extra-testosterone was endogenous or exogenous.

Does L'Equipe say it was endogenous or exogenous?

Before I read this, I was about to post the following from Mary Decker
Slaney's failed appeal to overturn the arbitration decision confirming
her test for an excessive T/E ratio:

"We hope that at some juncture, science will develop a means for
detecting exogenous testosterone in athletes, such that an athlete's
T/E ratio of 11.6:1 can be discounted if it is based on innocent
factors. However, until that point in time, we are confident that
requiring an athlete to prove by clear and convincing evidence that her
elevated ratio was due to pathological or physiological factors does
not invoke a violation of United States public policy as federal case
law has required in order for a court to refuse to enforce a foreign
arbitral award." Slaney v. Int'l Amateur Ath. Fed'n, 244 F.3d 580,
593-594 (7th Cir. 2001)

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Quoted message said:

gabriel faure said:

The newspaper L'Equipe reported that the test performed by the Chatenay-
Malabry lab was the so-called (and sophisticated) "isotope" test which
left
no doubt on whether the extra-testosterone was endogenous or exogenous.

Does L'Equipe say it was endogenous or exogenous?

Before I read this, I was about to post the following from Mary Decker
Slaney's failed appeal to overturn the arbitration decision confirming
her test for an excessive T/E ratio:

"We hope that at some juncture, science will develop a means for
detecting exogenous testosterone in athletes, such that an athlete's
T/E ratio of 11.6:1 can be discounted if it is based on innocent
factors. However, until that point in time, we are confident that
requiring an athlete to prove by clear and convincing evidence that her
elevated ratio was due to pathological or physiological factors does
not invoke a violation of United States public policy as federal case
law has required in order for a court to refuse to enforce a foreign
arbitral award." Slaney v. Int'l Amateur Ath. Fed'n, 244 F.3d 580,
593-594 (7th Cir. 2001

According l'Equipe it is a test using the German Biologist Manfred Donike
technic who permit to have the ratio;
Le labo also use a IRMS technic who permit to separate the Exogenous (
Syntese) from the Enrogenous (natural, from the body).

Sorry but in French. According l'Equipe " Cette méthode, fondée sur la
spectrométrie de masse isotopique du carbone, est indiscutable. Dans le
dossier Landis, elle indique clairement que la testotérone est d'origine
exogène"

Quoted message said:

Before I read this, I was about to post the following from Mary Decker
Slaney's failed appeal to overturn the arbitration decision confirming
her test for an excessive T/E ratio:

So did she later get it overturned?

Landis (I believe) and others have said that everyone who has
challenged the T/E test has won. Guess not?

Quoted message said:

So did she later get it overturned?

Landis (I believe) and others have said that everyone who has
challenged the T/E test has won. Guess not?

No. Initially, the US federation overturned it, but the international
federation appealed, and it was reversed in an international
arbitration proceeding. She filed lawsuits to have the international
arbitration set aside and lost. Kirk O'Bee (former Navigator) also
tested positive for a high T/E ratio and was unable to prove it was a
result of doping.

gabriel faure said:

The newspaper L'Equipe reported that the test performed by the Chatenay-
Malabry lab was the so-called (and sophisticated) "isotope" test which left
no doubt on whether the extra-testosterone was endogenous or exogenous.

That's starting to make the US press:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20060728-9999-1n28landis.html

That's bad for Landis if its true.

Montesquiou said:

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Quoted message said:

gabriel faure said:

The newspaper L'Equipe reported that the test performed by the Chatenay-
Malabry lab was the so-called (and sophisticated) "isotope" test which
left
no doubt on whether the extra-testosterone was endogenous or exogenous.

Does L'Equipe say it was endogenous or exogenous?

Before I read this, I was about to post the following from Mary Decker
Slaney's failed appeal to overturn the arbitration decision confirming
her test for an excessive T/E ratio:

"We hope that at some juncture, science will develop a means for
detecting exogenous testosterone in athletes, such that an athlete's
T/E ratio of 11.6:1 can be discounted if it is based on innocent
factors. However, until that point in time, we are confident that
requiring an athlete to prove by clear and convincing evidence that her
elevated ratio was due to pathological or physiological factors does
not invoke a violation of United States public policy as federal case
law has required in order for a court to refuse to enforce a foreign
arbitral award." Slaney v. Int'l Amateur Ath. Fed'n, 244 F.3d 580,
593-594 (7th Cir. 2001

According l'Equipe it is a test using the German Biologist Manfred Donike
technic who permit to have the ratio;
Le labo also use a IRMS technic who permit to separate the Exogenous (
Syntese) from the Enrogenous (natural, from the body).

Sorry but in French. According l'Equipe " Cette méthode, fondée sur la
spectrométrie de masse isotopique du carbone, est indiscutable. Dans le
dossier Landis, elle indique clairement que la testotérone est d'origine
exogène"

Can you provide a link to the l'Equipe article this is from? I Googled
their site and could not get any hits on several words and phrases from
the "quote."

I'm no expert in French, but this looks more like a Babel Fish
translation from English. Any French speakers out there?

Quoted message said:

Sorry but in French. According l'Equipe " ...Dans le
dossier Landis, elle indique clairement que la testotérone est d'origine
exogène"

Why does L'Equipe have access to the "dossier Landis"?

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Montesquiou said:

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Quoted message said:

gabriel faure said:

The newspaper L'Equipe reported that the test performed by the
Chatenay-
Malabry lab was the so-called (and sophisticated) "isotope" test which
left
no doubt on whether the extra-testosterone was endogenous or exogenous.

Does L'Equipe say it was endogenous or exogenous?

Before I read this, I was about to post the following from Mary Decker
Slaney's failed appeal to overturn the arbitration decision confirming
her test for an excessive T/E ratio:

"We hope that at some juncture, science will develop a means for
detecting exogenous testosterone in athletes, such that an athlete's
T/E ratio of 11.6:1 can be discounted if it is based on innocent
factors. However, until that point in time, we are confident that
requiring an athlete to prove by clear and convincing evidence that her
elevated ratio was due to pathological or physiological factors does
not invoke a violation of United States public policy as federal case
law has required in order for a court to refuse to enforce a foreign
arbitral award." Slaney v. Int'l Amateur Ath. Fed'n, 244 F.3d 580,
593-594 (7th Cir. 2001

According l'Equipe it is a test using the German Biologist Manfred Donike
technic who permit to have the ratio;
Le labo also use a IRMS technic who permit to separate the Exogenous (
Syntese) from the Enrogenous (natural, from the body).

Sorry but in French. According l'Equipe " Cette méthode, fondée sur la
spectrométrie de masse isotopique du carbone, est indiscutable. Dans le
dossier Landis, elle indique clairement que la testotérone est d'origine
exogène"

Can you provide a link to the l'Equipe article this is from? I Googled
their site and could not get any hits on several words and phrases from
the "quote."

I'm no expert in French, but this looks more like a Babel Fish
translation from English. Any French speakers out there?

Sorry, but I am French .... Yes, I know ...

It comes from my l'Equipe. I paid it 0,80 centimes today morning. Pls I have
my reputation to protect with 'mon libraire" ; )

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Quoted message said:

Sorry but in French. According l'Equipe " ...Dans le
dossier Landis, elle indique clairement que la testotérone est d'origine
exogène"

Why does L'Equipe have access to the "dossier Landis"?

Understand here the word "Dossier" as "what we are talking about"

Montesquiou said:

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Montesquiou said:

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Quoted message said:

gabriel faure wrote:
> The newspaper L'Equipe reported that the test performed by the
> Chatenay-
> Malabry lab was the so-called (and sophisticated) "isotope" test which
> left
> no doubt on whether the extra-testosterone was endogenous or exogenous.

Does L'Equipe say it was endogenous or exogenous?

Before I read this, I was about to post the following from Mary Decker
Slaney's failed appeal to overturn the arbitration decision confirming
her test for an excessive T/E ratio:

"We hope that at some juncture, science will develop a means for
detecting exogenous testosterone in athletes, such that an athlete's
T/E ratio of 11.6:1 can be discounted if it is based on innocent
factors. However, until that point in time, we are confident that
requiring an athlete to prove by clear and convincing evidence that her
elevated ratio was due to pathological or physiological factors does
not invoke a violation of United States public policy as federal case
law has required in order for a court to refuse to enforce a foreign
arbitral award." Slaney v. Int'l Amateur Ath. Fed'n, 244 F.3d 580,
593-594 (7th Cir. 2001

According l'Equipe it is a test using the German Biologist Manfred Donike
technic who permit to have the ratio;
Le labo also use a IRMS technic who permit to separate the Exogenous (
Syntese) from the Enrogenous (natural, from the body).

Sorry but in French. According l'Equipe " Cette méthode, fondée surla
spectrométrie de masse isotopique du carbone, est indiscutable. Dans le
dossier Landis, elle indique clairement que la testotérone est d'origine
exogène"

Can you provide a link to the l'Equipe article this is from? I Googled
their site and could not get any hits on several words and phrases from
the "quote."

I'm no expert in French, but this looks more like a Babel Fish
translation from English. Any French speakers out there?

Sorry, but I am French .... Yes, I know ...

It comes from my l'Equipe. I paid it 0,80 centimes today morning. Pls I have
my reputation to protect with 'mon libraire" ; )

Ok. How about page and paragraph? What was the headline of the article?
Thanks.

According l'Equipe " ...Dans le

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

dossier Landis, elle indique clairement que la testotérone est d'origine
exogène"

Why does L'Equipe have access to the "dossier Landis"?

Understand here the word "Dossier" as "what we are talking about"

I'm happy to concede my 6 years of French class were worthless, but in
context, the article appears to say that based on something (an actual
document?), it "clearly indicates that the testosterone is from an
exogenous source."

A French lab would never leak information to the press before a B
sample has been tested, right?

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Montesquiou said:

"Tere" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
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Montesquiou said:

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Quoted message said:

gabriel faure wrote:
> The newspaper L'Equipe reported that the test performed by the
> Chatenay-
> Malabry lab was the so-called (and sophisticated) "isotope" test
> which
> left
> no doubt on whether the extra-testosterone was endogenous or
> exogenous.

Does L'Equipe say it was endogenous or exogenous?

Before I read this, I was about to post the following from Mary Decker
Slaney's failed appeal to overturn the arbitration decision confirming
her test for an excessive T/E ratio:

"We hope that at some juncture, science will develop a means for
detecting exogenous testosterone in athletes, such that an athlete's
T/E ratio of 11.6:1 can be discounted if it is based on innocent
factors. However, until that point in time, we are confident that
requiring an athlete to prove by clear and convincing evidence that
her
elevated ratio was due to pathological or physiological factors does
not invoke a violation of United States public policy as federal case
law has required in order for a court to refuse to enforce a foreign
arbitral award." Slaney v. Int'l Amateur Ath. Fed'n, 244 F.3d 580,
593-594 (7th Cir. 2001

According l'Equipe it is a test using the German Biologist Manfred
Donike
technic who permit to have the ratio;
Le labo also use a IRMS technic who permit to separate the Exogenous (
Syntese) from the Enrogenous (natural, from the body).

Sorry but in French. According l'Equipe " Cette méthode, fondée sur la
spectrométrie de masse isotopique du carbone, est indiscutable. Dans le
dossier Landis, elle indique clairement que la testotérone est d'origine
exogène"

Can you provide a link to the l'Equipe article this is from? I Googled
their site and could not get any hits on several words and phrases from
the "quote."

I'm no expert in French, but this looks more like a Babel Fish
translation from English. Any French speakers out there?

Sorry, but I am French .... Yes, I know ...

It comes from my l'Equipe. I paid it 0,80 centimes today morning. Pls I
have
my reputation to protect with 'mon libraire" ; )

Ok. How about page and paragraph? What was the headline of the article?
Thanks.

***

It is page 3
On the top : Landis, le mauvais rêve.
Then a nice picture of a children running close to Landis, a bottle of water
at hand, climbing the stage.
A nice gird in "extase" near the boy.
Under is the part : Un cotrole en question :

5 topics

A quoi sert la testostérone?
La posivité de l'échantillon A est-elle indiscutable ?
La performance de Landis à Morzine est-elle due à la prise de testo. ?
Peut-il invoquer une contamination et une prise passive du produit ?
L'opération Puerto a-t-elle modifié l'arsenal dopant du dernier tour ?

I can develop the topic if you are indulgent with my poor english

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According l'Equipe " ...Dans le

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

dossier Landis, elle indique clairement que la testotérone est d'origine
exogène"

Why does L'Equipe have access to the "dossier Landis"?

Understand here the word "Dossier" as "what we are talking about"

I'm happy to concede my 6 years of French class were worthless, but in
context, the article appears to say that based on something (an actual
document?), it "clearly indicates that the testosterone is from an
exogenous source."

A French lab would never leak information to the press before a B
sample has been tested, right?

****

Ok. Nothing in the text permit to say that they had access to any "dossier".
However it is clear that they have the informations on the result of the
test. For to say the following

"les patches - voire la pommade - de testo. pourraient représenter un mode
d'admission plus conciliable avec le cas Landis"

Where the information comes from ? UCI - AMA or the ministere des sports ?

They are jornalist. They know more than they are telling to us.

Don't forget that they know the TDF better than every one.

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Quoted message said:

Sorry : Un controle

On 28-Jul-2006, smacked up and reeling, <Montesquiou> blindly formulated
the following incoherence:

Quoted message said:

Ok. Nothing in the text permit to say that they had access to any
"dossier".
However it is clear that they have the informations on the result of the
test. For to say the following

"les patches - voire la pommade - de testo. pourraient représenter un mode

d'admission plus conciliable avec le cas Landis"

Where the information comes from ? UCI - AMA or the ministere des sports ?

They are jornalist. They know more than they are telling to us.

Don't forget that they know the TDF better than every one.

If they did run the isotope test on the A sample, that would be a change
from the usual protocol.

Then, again, if it's the TdF winner...maybe they would go all out on "A". I
wonder.

steve
--
"The accused will now make a bogus statement."
James Joyce

"steve" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 28-Jul-2006, Montesquiou formulated
the following coherent text:

Quoted message said:

Ok. Nothing in the text permit to say that they had access to any
"dossier".
However it is clear that they have the informations on the result of the
test. For to say the following

"les patches - voire la pommade - de testo. pourraient représenter un
mode

d'admission plus conciliable avec le cas Landis"

Where the information comes from ? UCI - AMA or the ministere des sports
?

They are jornalist. They know more than they are telling to us.

Don't forget that they know the TDF better than every one.

If they did run the isotope test on the A sample, that would be a change
from the usual protocol.

Yes, and why ?

Are you telling they could not do it ?

Quoted message said:

Then, again, if it's the TdF winner...maybe they would go all out on "A".
I
wonder.

steve
--
"The accused will now make a bogus statement."
James Joyce

This test, like many doping tests, is not necessarily infallible. Both
synthetic and endogenous testosterone are derived from plant material.
Different plants exhibit distinct biases as to how much 13C (as CO2)
they take in versus 12C (as CO2) they take in. The test assumes that
synthetic hormone (typically derived from a single source of plant
material such as soy) has a different isotopic composition than
endogenous testosterone because people generally eat a variety of plant
materials in their diet.

It is possible for someone's diet to be heavily biased to a given plant
source. For example, I have read that most people from the USA have a
13C/12C ratio very similar to corn because so much of our diet is based
on corn. We eat corn, we eat things with ingredients derived from corn
(e.g., high-fructose corn syrup), and we eat meat that has been fed
corn. Ironically, people from the USA look more like corn than people
from Mexico and Central America, where corn originated.

Could such a dietary bias exist in a cyclist and cause a false positive
in the isotope test?

Quoted message said:

This test, like many doping tests, is not necessarily infallible. Both
synthetic and endogenous testosterone are derived from plant material.
Different plants exhibit distinct biases as to how much 13C (as CO2)
they take in versus 12C (as CO2) they take in. The test assumes that
synthetic hormone (typically derived from a single source of plant
material such as soy) has a different isotopic composition than
endogenous testosterone because people generally eat a variety of plant
materials in their diet.

It is possible for someone's diet to be heavily biased to a given plant
source. For example, I have read that most people from the USA have a
13C/12C ratio very similar to corn because so much of our diet is based
on corn. We eat corn, we eat things with ingredients derived from corn
(e.g., high-fructose corn syrup), and we eat meat that has been fed
corn. Ironically, people from the USA look more like corn than people
from Mexico and Central America, where corn originated.

Could such a dietary bias exist in a cyclist and cause a false positive
in the isotope test?

Unlikely, because in this case the "background" or reference material
used to account for the natural abundance of 13C comes from the
specific individual, i.e., they compare the 13:12C ratio of the
testosterone to the 13C:12C ratio of other naturally-occuring steroids
(the 13C:12C ratio of which also varies with the diet). If the
difference is greater than 3 parts per thousand relative to PDB, the
testosterone is considered to be of exogenous origin.

Andy Coggan