Tensions Rising Over Veils

I heard since Jack Straw made his comments, one or two women have been assaulted and their burkhas pulled off by the odd "vigilante".
Of course, that's very disrespectful. In Russia there are Orthodox priests who literally boil themselves in huge gowns and crucifixes round their necks on red hot days but I never heard of the average Muscovite pulling at the said cloak.
All in all, though, it's a complex issue. Many women feel veils are an open statement of a woman's self-professed inferiority to a man and that comes after years of women battling for equal status. They fear veils will spread to such a degree, womens' rights could be reversed.
New Labour has now seriously considered an outright ban on the veil.

Carrera said:

For whatever reason, Jack Straw has spoken out against Islamic burkhas and veils, stating he would prefer women not to cover themselves from head to toe as such a practice is a sign of social segregation. This has infuriated moslems but apparently Gordon Brown has tacitly backed Straw. There has even be some suggestion burkhas could be banned in this country.
I'm afraid my own view remains the same so check out my earlier posts. I don't understand what apologists for multiculturalism are trying to achieve. If they're going to let thousands and thousands of immigrants into the country and then just expect these people to become "British", well, it doesn't quite work like that. The same applies to Polish immigrants, Chinese immigrants and all immigrants who will continue to view themselves as Chinese, Polish or Moslem or Jew or whatever, the same as Britons in Spain still speak English and support their football team.
A handful of people warned politicians decades ago that multiculturalism is as flawed (far more flawed in fact) than communism. Multiculturalism leaves the immigrants themselves feeling culturally alienated, divides society into ethnic groups based on various religions, creates ghettoes and breeds racial tension.
The idea the Government has been trying to project that we're all going to live peacefully as a melting pot of various ethnic groups, governed by Brussels
is as big a con of the working masses as Stalin's five year plans where he promised a workers paradise.
Now, the Government is getting cold feet as it sees exactly how all these social divisions are starting to surface? How come every time I pick up the newspaper these days there is constant bickering about race? I thought we were all supposed to be one big happy family? 😉 Or is it the case the King doesn't have an invisible suit as the wise men affirm?

What a load of bollacks again. The Polish people have never ever been a problem in the UK, and have contributed in a positive manner against the Nazis and the Communist imposition thereafter out side of the UK.
As for the Chinese you are unfounded in all aspects. One of my friends Prof Lui, whom is one of the finest erudite men I have ever met, lectures on such things as Molecular biology, Paedatric oncology, the pathways of DNA in such circumstances, and molecular medicine at London's premier teaching hospital.
his wife Dong Dong, who has a degree as a Doctor of opthalmic medicine is at home looking after the two kids.
BTW They are both from Beijing, and consider thmselves to be graduates of the Chinese educational system.
I've met Lu's Dad and Mum, and we shared 2 bottles of decent Port plus all that the ladies rustled up as well.
So clear off you ignorant peasant.

FredC said:

What a load of bollacks again...

LAFF!

Well you know, this is Carrera you're dealing with.

Tell you what, Carrera: why not every country build 10-meter high Berlin Walls around their borders, and instantly deport any loose furriners that make it through? Soon, we'll have more n' bigger wars to settle our ignorances about the "outlanders"!

A very workable plan!

Carrera said:

For whatever reason, Jack Straw has spoken out against Islamic burkhas and veils, stating he would prefer women not to cover themselves from head to toe as such a practice is a sign of social segregation.

Actually - you've got the details wrong as usual.

Jack Straw MP spoke out about female Muslim constituents of his who, when meeting him at his constitiency office who keep their faced veiled.
He had requested those constituents to remove their veils during his meetings with them.

Straw never commented about women being covered from head to toe - as you put it.

Carrera said:

I'm afraid my own view remains the same.......................

I've never actually opposed a degree of immigration. I'm not endorsing a mono-cultural society. What I do vehemently oppose, however, is the destruction of entire cultures via reckless, mass immigration.
Let's put it simply: I do not wish to see Spain and Spanish culture disappear due to half-baked theories emerging from E.U. bureacrats. Neither do I wish to visit an Italy where Italians become diluted amongst millions of immigrants from Turkey, Bulgaria, the Middle East and Eastern Europe.
The E.U. bureaucrats don't want Europeans to continue as independent cultures with a unique language and history. They seek a mish-mash of migrants all living in a melting-pot of people who don't know where their roots are. Yet, the history of Europe was never based on this ideology. France, Italy, Spain and Germany always had their own culture and history that made them different.
This is enforced integration not democracy. Muhammad Ali opposed it in his day and was highly nationalistic yet today he's a hero. Back then they called him a bigot. However, that's what it's all about today - forced racial integration on all sides and it isn't working.

Wurm said:

LAFF!

Well you know, this is Carrera you're dealing with.

Tell you what, Carrera: why not every country build 10-meter high Berlin Walls around their borders, and instantly deport any loose furriners that make it through? Soon, we'll have more n' bigger wars to settle our ignorances about the "outlanders"!

A very workable plan!

First, I think you should not post deliberately misleading info (re: Lim) disguised as something that an official actually did or said. Your argument loses credibility right from the git.

Carrera said:

Yet, the history of Europe was never based on this ideology. France, Italy, Spain and Germany always had their own culture and history that made them different.

They (Europe) always had war after war after war due often to some screwed-up, over-baked sense of national "differences", ie: nationalism mixed with religiosity.

It sounds to me like you've merely got a problem with the EU, and probably not just concerning this issue. I think some of you from 'Yurp are simply afraid of losing your "national identity", which in reality translates to: no more excuses for regressive nationalism, which tends to breed wars.

Carrera said:

They seek a mish-mash of migrants all living in a melting-pot of people who don't know where their roots are.

I don't think that many in the US, for example, have a problem knowing where their ancestors came from, or that they are living somewhere other than their ancestral homeland. Might be harder for EU states to get used to though.

A few points here: Your country has enjoyed superpower status for little under a century whereas the Roman Empire lasted for some 400 years. Egypt lasted even longer than that.Moreover, my prediction has always been the U.S. will be eclipsed by China politically and economically over the next 20 years.
China, by the way, is not a multi-ethnic society but quite nationalistic, similar to Japan but with nukes and a space program.
Therefore, I concluded some time ago the E.U. is jumping the gun by copying the U.S. model which hasn't yet been tested over a longer span of history. By that I ask whether the U.S. will still enjoy the same status 50 years from now. Will Europe? I doubt it.
History shows that for s society to survive over long periods of time there has to be a more nationalistic outlook. Look at the Greeks - a highly nationalistic society that lasted hundreds of years if you consider the survival of the Eastern Greek-speaking Roman Empire, Aristotle, Plato, Alexander the Great and so on. They invented a democracy Bush knows little of and barely understands.
Don't get me wrong. The U.S. was a great country in its heyday but I believe that day has started to wane. If anyone can control rogue states such as North Korea today it's China and China has only just started to develop.
A phoney war in Iraq, excessive immigration and lack of border controls are all mistakes the U.S. has made. With Bush even considering turning port security over to the Saudis, it shows how the U.S. has lost its way over the last decade and has failed to look within.

Wurm said:

First, I think you should not post deliberately misleading info (re: Lim) disguised as something that an official actually did or said. Your argument loses credibility right from the git.

They (Europe) always had war after war after war due often to some screwed-up, over-baked sense of national "differences", ie: nationalism mixed with religiosity.

It sounds to me like you've merely got a problem with the EU, and probably not just concerning this issue. I think some of you from 'Yurp are simply afraid of losing your "national identity", which in reality translates to: no more excuses for regressive nationalism, which tends to breed wars.

I don't think that many in the US, for example, have a problem knowing where their ancestors came from, or that they are living somewhere other than their ancestral homeland. Might be harder for EU states to get used to though.

The modern U.S. is similar to Carthage, perhaps - a former African naval Empire. Carthage was a great power and was made up of scores of different ethnic groups. However, Carthage was beaten by a highly nationalistic Rome in the Punic war. One of the factors that led to the defeat was the greater unity of the Romans, the fact they spoke one language and were strongly united.
China is the same. It needs no immigrants to man the factories and has no racial tensions or social divisions or political correctness to eat away at its stability. No fundamnetalism or terrorism either from within.
So, mark my words: China will be the next superpower and far more powerful than Bush's America in 50 years time. That's my view.

Wurm said:

First, I think you should not post deliberately misleading info (re: Lim) disguised as something that an official actually did or said. Your argument loses credibility right from the git.

They (Europe) always had war after war after war due often to some screwed-up, over-baked sense of national "differences", ie: nationalism mixed with religiosity.

It sounds to me like you've merely got a problem with the EU, and probably not just concerning this issue. I think some of you from 'Yurp are simply afraid of losing your "national identity", which in reality translates to: no more excuses for regressive nationalism, which tends to breed wars.

I don't think that many in the US, for example, have a problem knowing where their ancestors came from, or that they are living somewhere other than their ancestral homeland. Might be harder for EU states to get used to though.

Carrera said:

China is the same. It needs no immigrants to man the factories and has no racial tensions or social divisions or political correctness to eat away at its stability. No fundamnetalism or terrorism either from within.

They are having problems with the Muslims in the eastern part of China. And a person has to realize that with prosperity comes problems. Japan was the wonder nation of the 80's. Prosperity changed the working Japanese. With prosperity the average Chinese will be exposed to more world wide attitudes. The Western cultures are attractive..... Bay Watch women, fast cars, Taco Bell, and the other fine things people drool over.

The enviromental concerns of China will raise it's ugly head soon. China will face stricter enviromental controls, fewer natural resources, and more competition for oil. They will have the same problems as the US and the EU.

Carrera said:

...France, Italy, Spain and Germany always had their own culture and history that made them different.

They were also quite keen to export their culture to Britain at various times too.

China is comprised of 56 ethnic groups recognised by the PRC government and has multiple languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language
Chinese language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese
Han Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalities_of_China
Ethnic minorities in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9179/
East Turkestan Islamic Movement (China, separatists) - Council on Foreign Relations

I won't argue it further with you, Carrera. I've said why I think you're wrong.

Hmmm, but you're forgetting I oppose interference with other countries and imperialism. I oppose uprooting people from their own roots and culture whether that be via slavery or mass immigration.

stevebaby said:

They were also quite keen to export their culture to Britain at various times too.

FredC said:

What a load of bollacks again. .....So clear off you ignorant peasant.

Frank. And accurate.

I don't know how its like over in England for you carrera, but we've got a lovely Indian family across my street who helps keep an eye out on my house when i'm on vacation. I help take care of their ddog when they go to malaysia on holiday as they do not have relatives around. And when they get back they give me the best curry powder mixes from their hometown.

Steve, we've been here before. 😉 Your argument here is lacking in logic since you're comparing countries like China and Russia with the U.S.A. and Britain and these are not valid comparisons. 😕
For example, I'm fully aware that Russia is a relatively mixed society comprised of Ukranians, Moldavians, Latvians, Jews and Russians. China also has other languages spoken apart from Mandarin.
However, there's a big difference between the U.S., Russia and China. The U.S. has far more ethnic groups and will, by the admission of Clinton, have no single ethnic majority in the next few decades. The U.S. is made up of Irish, Africans, Slavic peoples, Hispanics (the possible dominant group on the horizon), Germans, Jews, Orientals and Middle Eastern peoples.
(Having said that, the U.S. still isn't as ethnically diverse as the Roman Empire was by 400 A.D. before it fragmented).
China isn't multicultural in the same way as the U.S. For that matter, China doesn't tolerate diversity as a point of national policy or enforce diversity by importing whole groups of peoples from overseas in the name of multiculturalism. China has no desire to be a Chinese minority state andpromote other values over Chinese cultural values. It's a nationalistic country.
I also think this idea that China tolerates and embraces Islam or any other religion is off mark. I already posted some information on how China has cracked down on organized religion in its borders. I have friends who are Chinese from the mainland and Hong Kong and I think they'd disagree with you too.

stevebaby said:

China is comprised of 56 ethnic groups recognised by the PRC government and has multiple languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language
Chinese language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese
Han Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalities_of_China
Ethnic minorities in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9179/
East Turkestan Islamic Movement (China, separatists) - Council on Foreign Relations

I don't have over complaint about controlled immigration. My gripe is against the promotion of no single ethnic majority and the mistaken idea nationalism per se is bad. If nationalism was bad, I doubt the Nazis would ever have lost WW2 since fascist Germany was beaten by a highly nationalistic Russia, same as Persia was beaten by a highly nationalistic Greece.
The U.K. isn't a good example of a supposedly happy "community" of ethnic groups living in harmony. Every day I pick up the U.K. papers, there seems bickering over race with yet another riot being reported last week. If it's not that, there is people smuggling, welfare fiddling, radical Islamic groups plotting terrorism, religious tension and a whole load of complications. Add to that politicaians who are afraid to criticize and question the process - as they did in Holland and are starting to do in France.
The current mess I reckon entitles me to question whether multiculturalism will inevitably lead to prosperity and stability and I base these views on what took place in other societies who tried the same process throughout history.

willocrew said:

I don't know how its like over in England for you carrera, but we've got a lovely Indian family across my street who helps keep an eye out on my house when i'm on vacation. I help take care of their ddog when they go to malaysia on holiday as they do not have relatives around. And when they get back they give me the best curry powder mixes from their hometown.

How's about this for harmonious life in Blair's "community"?
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23369687-details/Race+clashes+hit+Windsor/article.do
"Extra police are being drafted into the Windsor area today after three nights of violent clashes between white and Asian youths.........................
Gangs have fought battles in the streets using baseball bats and pitchforks. A spokesman for Thames Valley Police said: "We are investigating incidents of disorder and criminal damage on Monday and Tuesday nights.
'These have involved groups of predominantly white and Asian teenagers. As a result of the disorder one business and at least five vehicles have been damaged.'
He added: "We will monitor the situation and are working with the community, the business and the local authority to prevent further disorder."

willocrew said:

I don't know how its like over in England for you carrera, but we've got a lovely Indian family across my street who helps keep an eye out on my house when i'm on vacation. I help take care of their ddog when they go to malaysia on holiday as they do not have relatives around. And when they get back they give me the best curry powder mixes from their hometown.

The question to be raised is how did these people manage to arm themselves with pitchforks?
It's the kind of tractic an irate farmer would use on an anti-hunt protester. 😕

Carrera said:

How's about this for harmonious life in Blair's "community"?
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23369687-details/Race+clashes+hit+Windsor/article.do
"Extra police are being drafted into the Windsor area today after three nights of violent clashes between white and Asian youths.........................
Gangs have fought battles in the streets using baseball bats and pitchforks. A spokesman for Thames Valley Police said: "We are investigating incidents of disorder and criminal damage on Monday and Tuesday nights.
'These have involved groups of predominantly white and Asian teenagers. As a result of the disorder one business and at least five vehicles have been damaged.'
He added: "We will monitor the situation and are working with the community, the business and the local authority to prevent further disorder."