Teflon talk

Peter Aitken said:

I think you are right. If I really want to brown the [censored] (bad pun, sorry)
out of something I use stainless, cast iron, or le Creuset. Even so,
non-stick has a host of valid uses.

--
Peter Aitken
Visit my recipe and kitchen myths page at www.pgacon.com/cooking.htm

Howdy,

Might you know why...?

I've noticed that NS pans don't brown things very well, but
have no real understanding of the reason. It would seem that
the temperature is the same regardless of the material. So,
I've wondered about the real reason.

Thanks for your thoughts,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Nancy Young said:

I agree with you. I also, perhaps wrongly, feel that it doesn't get as
hot as I like, the way I can with stainless.

nancy

Hi Nancy,

Where would you suppose the heat goes (if not into the pan)?

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Aitken said:

I think you are right. If I really want to brown the [censored] (bad pun, sorry)
out of something I use stainless, cast iron, or le Creuset. Even so,
non-stick has a host of valid uses.

--
Peter Aitken
Visit my recipe and kitchen myths page at www.pgacon.com/cooking.htm

Howdy,

Might you know why...?

I've noticed that NS pans don't brown things very well, but
have no real understanding of the reason. It would seem that
the temperature is the same regardless of the material. So,
I've wondered about the real reason.

Thanks for your thoughts,
--

No - I do not know the reason.

--
Peter Aitken
Visit my recipe and kitchen myths page at www.pgacon.com/cooking.htm

"Kenneth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nancy Young said:

I agree with you. I also, perhaps wrongly, feel that it doesn't get as
hot as I like, the way I can with stainless.

Quoted message said:

Hi Nancy,

Where would you suppose the heat goes (if not into the pan)?

I suppose into the air. Some materials retain heat better than others,
for instance cast iron. Others just give it up. I guess what I am
saying is that I feel that the stainless surface is hotter than the
non stick. That's been my experience with cooking using the two.
My preference is for stainless or aluminum.

nancy

"Kenneth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Where would you suppose the heat goes (if not into the pan)?

It does not transfer as well as metal. On a gas range, the heat would go up
around the pan. On an electric it will do that to a point, but the pan just
won't absorb as much since the Teflon acts as an insulating barrier.
Admittedly a poor one, but it does not conduct the same as bare metal.

Peter Aitken said:

Kenneth said:

Peter Aitken said:

I think you are right. If I really want to brown the [censored] (bad pun, sorry)
out of something I use stainless, cast iron, or le Creuset. Even so,
non-stick has a host of valid uses.

Might you know why...?

I've noticed that NS pans don't brown things very well, but
have no real understanding of the reason. It would seem that
the temperature is the same regardless of the material. So,
I've wondered about the real reason.

No - I do not know the reason.

Teflon is an excellent insulator, does not transfer heat very well...
yet another of the reasons not to buy expensive laminated designer
cookware in the non-stick version. Coating metal with teflon is in
fact counter-productive to cooking, before teflon can be heated to
typical food browning temperatures it will destruct.

http://www.techlib.com/reference/insulation.html

TFE (TEFLON): *Teflon is an excellent high temperature insulation* with
superb electrical properties. Teflon tubing and wire insulation comes
in a variety of colors and typically feels slippery. The insulation is
*impervious to the heat* and chemicals normally encountered in
electronics manufacturing but the material will "cold flow" so Teflon
insulation is avoided where sharp corners or points are encountered.
Laminated TFE circuit boards take advantage of Teflon's excellent
microwave characteristics. Teflon emits a dangerous gas when exposed to
extreme heat. White Teflon terminals are commonly used where extremely
good insulation is required. The slick surface repels water so the
insulation properties are fantastic even in high humidity. High quality
I.C. sockets are made from Teflon to reduce leakage currents. Teflon
and Teflon composite tapes with adhesive are available. FEP is a lower
temperature Teflon.
---

Sheldon

Nancy Young said:

"Kenneth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nancy Young said:

I agree with you. I also, perhaps wrongly, feel that it doesn't get as
hot as I like, the way I can with stainless.

Quoted message said:

Hi Nancy,

Where would you suppose the heat goes (if not into the pan)?

I suppose into the air.

'Zactly.

Quoted message said:

Some materials retain heat better than others,
for instance cast iron. Others just give it up. I guess what I am
saying is that I feel that the stainless surface is hotter than the
non stick. That's been my experience with cooking using the two.
My preference is for stainless or aluminum.

'Zactly. Bare metal cooks hotter.

Were non-stick and bare metal cookware heated simultaneously from an
identical source the non-stick coating will have been destroyed long
before the bare metal reached food browning temps. Non-stick is
strictly for "Wuss-Cookery". Professional cooks don't use non-stick
cookware... only those restaurant supply emporiums that cater to the
general public carry non-stick cookware, among all the other home
kitchen supplies.

Professional cooks don't use cast iron cookware either, they'd need
arms like Arrrrnold... professional cooks use mostly aluminum, some
stainless and some carbon steel. Even for acidic foods like tomato
sauce they still use aluminum... sixty quart pots are heavy enough even
of aluminum... and they don't really care if the aluminum pots
eventually become ugly and unserviceable from pitting, they simply
replace as needed, commercial establishments don't buy designer pots,
they buy bare bones cookware, not very expensive. When commercial
kitchens need intense ehat, they don't bother with archaic cast iron,
they use grills, griddles, and broilers.

Sheldon

Quoted message said:

"Kenneth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've noticed that NS pans don't brown things very well, but
have no real understanding of the reason. It would seem that
the temperature is the same regardless of the material. So,
I've wondered about the real reason.

Browning is the result of Maillard Reaction. It is a reaction between
proteins and carbohydrates. It will occur at room temperature, but is
accelerated by heat. If a pan is non stick, it will not "grab" the proteins
and carbs as well as the bare metal. I'm sure there is a better and more
detailed description than that too.

Edwin Pawlowski said:

Browning is the result of Maillard Reaction. It is a reaction between
proteins and carbohydrates. It will occur at room temperature, but is
accelerated by heat. If a pan is non stick, it will not "grab" the proteins
and carbs as well as the bare metal. I'm sure there is a better and more
detailed description than that too.

The "grabbing" you describe is key to some important cooking processes.

Not only does teflon inhibit browning via it's insulation properties, it
also inhibits the formation of fond in the bottom of the pan. Fond is
the brown stuff that forms in the pan which is integral to many recipes
and cooking techniques.

In order to complete it's formation, at some point the fond
constituents need to "attach" to the pan. Teflon inhibits this and
is therefore not very good for the wide variety of recipes where
fond formation and deglazing is essential.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

Alan S said:

"Bob (this one)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Alan S said:

Some alarmist info on Teflon: http://tuberose.com/Teflon.html

SNIPPAGE>>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

BTW, Aluminum is also toxic.

Puhleeeze. Aluminum is in virtually everything you eat. It's the most
plentiful metal on earth. There's no reliable science that says that
aluminum is toxic except in huge amounts.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you have to use Aluminum foil (I admit, it's handy stuff) use the
polished side.

<LOL> Brilliant. Both sides are aluminum. The "polished" side is
merely shinier because of how it's manufactured. There are no benefits in
using either side for any purpose. They are both just plain, uncoated
aluminum.

The polished side has been milled, they are not the same. Once again,
eat it if you want, I could care less

Milled?!?
Aluminum foil is rolled.
The finish is a reflection of the finish on the rollers.
The only difference is that the shiny side will reflect more heat thaan the
dill side - basic physics.

Ken.

Although it wasn't my question, I have found all of this
data about teflon to be very interesting. Thanks to
everyone who posted the information.

nancy

Nancy Young said:

Although it wasn't my question

You didn't ask a quesion, you *opined* and I concurred... and then I
extrapolated and elaborated. But you really didn't ask any question,
you just wondered out loud, you do that.

Sheldon

"Ken Davey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Alan S said:

"Bob (this one)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Alan S wrote:

> Some alarmist info on Teflon: http://tuberose.com/Teflon.html

SNIPPAGE>>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> BTW, Aluminum is also toxic.

Puhleeeze. Aluminum is in virtually everything you eat. It's the most
plentiful metal on earth. There's no reliable science that says that
aluminum is toxic except in huge amounts.

Quoted message said:

> If you have to use Aluminum foil (I admit, it's handy stuff) use the
> polished side.

<LOL> Brilliant. Both sides are aluminum. The "polished" side is
merely shinier because of how it's manufactured. There are no benefits
in
using either side for any purpose. They are both just plain, uncoated
aluminum.

The polished side has been milled, they are not the same. Once again,
eat it if you want, I could care less

Milled?!?
Aluminum foil is rolled.
The finish is a reflection of the finish on the rollers.
The only difference is that the shiny side will reflect more heat thaan
the dill side - basic physics.

Ken.
The polished side has less friction and is thus less apt to rub Aluminum
off onto your food. Even so, I am sure it is not that big of a deal.

Alan S said:

"Ken Davey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Alan S said:

"Bob (this one)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

>Alan S wrote:
>
>
>>Some alarmist info on Teflon: http://tuberose.com/Teflon.html
>

SNIPPAGE>>

Quoted message said:

>>BTW, Aluminum is also toxic.
>
>Puhleeeze. Aluminum is in virtually everything you eat. It's the most
>plentiful metal on earth. There's no reliable science that says that
>aluminum is toxic except in huge amounts.

>>If you have to use Aluminum foil (I admit, it's handy stuff) use the
>>polished side.
>
><LOL> Brilliant. Both sides are aluminum. The "polished" side is
>merely shinier because of how it's manufactured. There are no benefits
>in
>using either side for any purpose. They are both just plain, uncoated
>aluminum.

The polished side has been milled, they are not the same. Once again,
eat it if you want, I could care less

Milled?!?
Aluminum foil is rolled.
The finish is a reflection of the finish on the rollers.
The only difference is that the shiny side will reflect more heat thaan
the dill side - basic physics.

The shiny side will reflect *light* more obviously because the dull side
is not as smooth and will do more diffusion. Heat will be absorbed
equally by either surface.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ken.
The polished side has less friction and is thus less apt to rub Aluminum
off onto your food. Even so, I am sure it is not that big of a deal.

Nonsense. How can a surface have less friction? You might be talking
about coefficients of friction, but that has nothing to do with rubbing
aluminum into your food.

Aluminum has not been shown to be toxic except in huge doses. Like
everything else.

Pastorio

Andy said:

Edwin Pawlowski said:

"Bob (this one)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

<LOL> Brilliant. Both sides are aluminum. The "polished" side is
merely shinier because of how it's manufactured. There are no
benefits in using either side for any purpose. They are both just
plain, uncoated aluminum.

No so. The shiny side out on my foil hat has much more power to
reflect the rays from space aliens. At the same time, it allows me to
communicate with the CIA about upcoming missions.

You know that CIA trick too? If I use the dull side, I get the librarian
at the local library.

Damn! That explains why I keep hearing somebody saying "SHHHHHH" when I
wear my aluminum hat inside out. I thought it was the ocean like when I
hold an empty Jack Daniels bottle next to my ear or something.

Pastorio

Reg said:

The "grabbing" you describe is key to some important cooking processes.

Not only does teflon inhibit browning...

All this is very true. I, who have and use a couple high quality
Teflon pans, wholeheartedly agree. But, non-stick has its place. We
all know non-stick is good for low fat egg cooking, fond not being a
desirable component of eggs over easy. It's also handy for other pan
fried foods like pancakes or cube steaks or other foods that don't
need a sauce and you just want to pan fry them as fast as possible and
clean the pan in a flash. That's one of the primary reasons for using
non-stick. Ten second clean-up! Get the water running hot, take the
hot pan to the faucet, add a couple drops of detergent, and clean up
is 3 swirls of a scrub brush. Just another cooking option.

nb

Alan S said:

"Bob (this one)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Alan S said:

Some alarmist info on Teflon: http://tuberose.com/Teflon.html

It's not just alarmist, it's wacko stuff. Innuendo, inferences, junk
science and an agenda too blatantly obvious to credit. These people say it
kills everything, everywhere and you;re gonna be next.

Aren't you glad your safe?

I bet you see this as clever.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

DuPont's offering:
http://www.teflon.com/NASApp/Teflon/TeflonPageServlet?pageId=/consumer/na/eng/housewares/keyword/teflon_keyword_toxicity.html

Learn how to shorten URLs.
<http://tinyurl.com/d8fph>

Thank you, I will check that out

Quoted message said:

DuPont says, nuh-uh. And, much as I'm skeptical of corporate weaseling,
I'm even more skeptical about martyrs who spread misinformation to advance
their semi-hysterical, utterly unbalanced viewpoints.

Wow! what a mouthful! Haha ... you are one impressive demagogue!

Wow! What a shovelful. Haha... you are one impressive illiterate who
doesn't know what demagogue means.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Teflon is not needed at all if you have good quality cookware and you
cook with it properly.

Stuff sticks to bare metals, even with good quality cookware properly
handled. Bare metals are harder to clean. It's not "needed" but it does
make the whole process easier. Every restaurant I know uses them for all
the obvious reasons.

I am glad my kitchen isn't a restaurant, I would be scrubbing and scrubbing

Nah. You wouldn't be open long enough. But, hey, with non-stick
cookware, a swipe with a damp cloth and it's clean.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There is a lot of information about the toxicity of Teflon
available just by Googling it.

Teflon *fumes* can cause problems. Teflon, itself is inert under most
circumstances.

Ahh of course ... ok ... let's take a piece of metal covered with Teflon and
heat it up real hot right under our faces ... Hmmm ...

Sure. Just like we all do with pots and pans. Just amble over to the
stove, slip a copper skillet onto the burner and fire it up. Pedal to
the metal. Make that sucker glow...

Um, the actual temperature matters. In all these cases. But, as in the
first boner post, no facts; only innuendo.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For any of the tree hugger flame stuff that is likely to ensue, let me
just go ahead and respond now and say - by all means, please, eat
whatever you want!

<LOL> So any differences of opinion are "tree hugger flame stuff" but your
misinformation is what, purity and truth revealed by God...?

Thank you for the compliment

Did you think it was a compliment...? Really...? Not even you could
believe that...

Quoted message said:

but try not to be so naive.

<LOL> More dictionary time for you, Sparky. Naive is exactly what I'm not.

Quoted message said:

Lighten up. Smile! ... Enjoy your day!

Do you think I do this for fun...? Oh, wait. That's why I do post to
empty nonsense like this. Well, that and typing practice.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

BTW, Aluminum is also toxic.

Puhleeeze. Aluminum is in virtually everything you eat. It's the most
plentiful metal on earth. There's no reliable science that says that
aluminum is toxic except in huge amounts.

It is true that there is a lot of viable argument for both sides of that
one, I personally try not to eat metals if I can avoid it due to the
toxicity.

Actually, there's no "viable" argument for toxicity of aluminum. Nor for
iron in any amounts likely to be ingested. No science that agrees with
anything in your stance. Lots of foil helmet types agree with you, though...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Iron, steel, and glass are the only ways to go.

Iron can be toxic in levels comparable to the aluminum ones. Likewise
steel because of the alloying metals.

Yes but Aluminum is very soft and thus is more likely to get scratched off
into food from cooking utensils. Eat it if you want, it makes no difference
to me.

Oh, sure it does. You see yourself as better informed and all smug and
superior about it. And, with one small quibble, it's so; that better
informed part. The quibble is that what you think you know is nonsense.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you have to use Aluminum foil (I admit, it's handy stuff) use the
polished side.

<LOL> Brilliant. Both sides are aluminum. The "polished" side is merely
shinier because of how it's manufactured. There are no benefits in using
either side for any purpose. They are both just plain, uncoated aluminum.

The polished side has been milled, they are not the same. Once again, eat
it if you want, I could care less

Nah. Aluminum foil is rolled, not milled. Milling aluminum is a very
touchy process, and virtually impossible in such thin sheets. Once
again, you don't know what you're talking about.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh yeah ... one other
thing ... For any of the tree hugger flame stuff that is likely to ensue,
let me just go ahead and respond now and say - by all means, please, eat
whatever you want!

Oh, I don't think anyone needs that permission...

Calm down there big fella! Relax, eat something, maybe some nice cookies or
something ... with a little milk

<LOL> It's nothing short of hilarious how you blast into this thread
with fevered exhortation and frantic condemnation and then advise others
not to act like you. That would be called "projection." Oh, jeez. More
dictionary time. Sorry.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But it is very funny how you characterize anyone who doesn't march in
lockstep with you. <LOL> Tree huggers... Right.

That is pure judgement on your behalf,

You don't mean behalf... But, yes it is a judgement based on your using
that image twice, stupidly, I might add.

Quoted message said:

I actually meant it as a joke due to
all the rabid flaming from folks like yourself that have difficulty having
intelligent, respectful conversations, but I digress.

See, the problem with your oh-so-sincere desire to have peaceful
conversation is absolutely blown away when you post the kind of
misinformed twaddle you do. It's very difficult and finally unproductive
to even try to do that when the deepest hallmark of the stuff coming
from you is agenda-laden polemics from these wingnut web sites. Lots of
woo-woo, new age, save the dying planet and my gastric system idiocy.

Quoted message said:

If you want to have a
peaceful, rational discussion then by all means, I am available for that.

You only think that. It's all in your imagination. Those conditions
assume capability to do so.

Quoted message said:

If
you want to get into a pissing match, expect no reply except from the other
trolls that make, stupid, one liner comments designed to insult other people
in an attempt to qualify their pathetic, angry, tiny little minds.

Right. Tree hugging bastids. Punch great chasms in the masturbatory
claptrap you post and they're all tree huggers. And pathetic and angry
with tiny little minds. And never a moment's question about what you
"know" from yourself.

Pastorio

On 4 Oct 2005 19:02:26 -0700, "Sheldon" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Peter Aitken said:

Kenneth said:

"Peter Aitken" wrote:

>I think you are right. If I really want to brown the [censored] (bad pun, sorry)
>out of something I use stainless, cast iron, or le Creuset. Even so,
>non-stick has a host of valid uses.

Might you know why...?

I've noticed that NS pans don't brown things very well, but
have no real understanding of the reason. It would seem that
the temperature is the same regardless of the material. So,
I've wondered about the real reason.

No - I do not know the reason.

Teflon is an excellent insulator, does not transfer heat very well...

Hello again,

That would seem to slow its increase in temperature.

Given the thickness of the Teflon on a pan, the additional
time to temp would seem to be trivial.

No?

Thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Edwin Pawlowski said:

Quoted message said:

"Kenneth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've noticed that NS pans don't brown things very well, but
have no real understanding of the reason. It would seem that
the temperature is the same regardless of the material. So,
I've wondered about the real reason.

Browning is the result of Maillard Reaction. It is a reaction between
proteins and carbohydrates. It will occur at room temperature, but is
accelerated by heat. If a pan is non stick, it will not "grab" the proteins
and carbs as well as the bare metal. I'm sure there is a better and more
detailed description than that too.

Hi Edwin,

Well, I'm sure too... <g>

What might it mean to "grab" proteins?

Thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Edwin Pawlowski said:

"Kenneth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Where would you suppose the heat goes (if not into the pan)?

It does not transfer as well as metal. On a gas range, the heat would go up
around the pan. On an electric it will do that to a point, but the pan just
won't absorb as much since the Teflon acts as an insulating barrier.
Admittedly a poor one, but it does not conduct the same as bare metal.

Hi again,

Your comments above would make more sense to me were the
Teflon, for example, as thick as the pan beneath. But,
(whatever its insulating properties) it is only a film.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."