Technical Trials "Concours des Machines,"

Paul Kopit said:

There is an event being conducted that will have riders racing over a
course that rewards sturdy road bicycles and their design. I'm guess
that you'll see 36 hole wheelsets, wider tires, and old fashioned
downtube or barend shifters.

http://www.technicaltrials.org/

I"m not strong enough to be the rider but I would enjoy getting
involved with designing the bicycle.

What features of a road bicycle do you think will be required?

I don't know, is this really an issue? Do people "race" or even ride
their bikes in the way this group envision? I have to say, no matter
how "sturdy" or "durable" a bike is, its still the "engine" that makes
it go.

If you think you need a "sturdy" or "durable" bike, then I agree, put
something together that's "conservative", especially by today's
standard and enjoy.....

bfd said:

Paul Kopit said:

There is an event being conducted that will have riders racing over a
course that rewards sturdy road bicycles and their design. I'm guess
that you'll see 36 hole wheelsets, wider tires, and old fashioned
downtube or barend shifters.

http://www.technicaltrials.org/

I'm not strong enough to be the rider but I would enjoy getting
involved with designing the bicycle.

Then connect up with a frame builder! It'd be interesting to see,
IMHO, not whether these wonderful bikes can be recreated but whether
new materials can be effctively adapted - such as carbon fiber.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What features of a road bicycle do you think will be required?

The concept is a bike that is integrated in design for the purpose of
ultra-long rides, and is also aesthetic. Stable handling, the ability
to ride the bike in a straight line along the fog line of a road at
3:00 AM while sleepy. The ability to carry small loads without
adversely affecting handling. Lightweight fenders, a comfortable
riding position, reliable and effective lighting- all designed and
assembled in such as way as to not break on a 750 mile ride on under
4 days.

There have been many bikes built along these lines, the "classic" ones
by Rene Herse, Alex Singer (still in business by the second owner in
65 years), Jo Routens, Narcisse, Barra. Some of them weighed under 25
pounds with racks, fenders and lights. Many of these bikes are still
in service 50 years later! England had its own famous maker of these
sorts of bikes, the Taylor Brothers a.k.a Jack Taylor Cycles. In the
US there are a number of people building similar bikes, such as Peter
Weigle, Peter Jon White, etc.

Quoted message said:

I don't know, is this really an issue? Do people "race" or even ride
their bikes in the way this group envision? I have to say, no matter
how "sturdy" or "durable" a bike is, its still the "engine" that makes
it go.

Do people ride their bikes in the way that these folks are talking
about? They've been doing it for 100+ years! Over 4,000 people did
a ride in 2003 for which these types of bikes are ideally suited,
called Paris-Brest-Paris. Try a Google search for that and see what
you find.

Here's a few things to get you started:

http://www.rusa.org/

http://www.seattlerandonneur.org/

http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/

http://www.lesrm.be/

http://www.audax.uk.net/index2.htm

http://www.geocities.com/b-m-b/

http://www.rusa.org/pbp.html

http://www.seattlerandonneur.org/cascade1200/

http://www.davisbikeclub.org/goldrush/

http://www.randonneurs.bc.ca/rocky/rm1200.html

http://www.blackbirdsf.org/2003pbp/

http://www.blackbirdsf.org/sf-portland/

Quoted message said:

If you think you need a "sturdy" or "durable" bike, then I agree, put
something together that's "conservative", especially by today's
standard and enjoy.....

Today's standard for what? Racing? This is an effort to redefine
the "standard" to something more comfortable and useful for many if
not most riders. The modern racing bike is fine for racing and short
rides, but doing a double century on the typical modern racing bike
is going to be bloody uncomfortable for most people. I hear people
complaining 50 miles into a ride about their butts, hands, neck and
shoulders being sore- and I'm feeling just warmed up and ready to
start riding!

The fastest "tandem mixte" in PBP in 2003 was a 1948 Herse tandem with
an old Cyclo derailleur and 650B wheels. There was only one faster
tandem, a "tandem hommes." Some of the fastest speeds in this event
were set on exactly these types of bikes- when you're riding for these
distances, comfort is more important that aerodynamics. Handling
helps, too- the bike racers on singles couldn't keep up with the
tandem on the roundabouts! The "modern standard" is a bike designed
for narrow parameters of usage- parameters that only a small, small,
tiny percentage of riders actually fall within.

There's a fair amount of information out there about these types of
bikes. Ground Zero is the first URL below, the Vintage Bicycle
Quarterly Web site. The Daniel Rebour "Data Book" is a fantastic
resource (especially for showing that many of the so-called modern
inventions such as clamp-on stems and telescopic shock suspension,
etc. has already been done- some of it 60 years ago). Everything old
is new again...

http://www.mindspring.com/~heine/bikesite/bikesite/index.html

http://www.ece.ubc.ca/~gillies/singer/

http://www.blackbirdsf.org/taylor/

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/British/Taylor_Jack/JackTaylor.htm

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/France/Herse.htm

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/France/Singer_home.htm

Quoted message said:

"What features of a road bicycle do you
think will be required?"

After reading about the condition of the "roads" they wil be using for
these trials, an old (but refrubished) built like a tank Schwinn Varsity
comes to mind....

- -

"May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

bfd said:

Paul Kopit said:

There is an event being conducted that will have riders racing over a
course that rewards sturdy road bicycles and their design. I'm guess
that you'll see 36 hole wheelsets, wider tires, and old fashioned
downtube or barend shifters.

http://www.technicaltrials.org/

I"m not strong enough to be the rider but I would enjoy getting
involved with designing the bicycle.

What features of a road bicycle do you think will be required?

If you think you need a "sturdy" or "durable" bike, then I agree, put
something together that's "conservative", especially by today's
standard and enjoy.....

My design for such a bike is fairly traditional, but that
doesn't mean that the bike HAS to be built like older bikes.
Hopefully, this competition will inspire some creativity,
and we'll see some new ideas.

BTW, here's my take, but I'm not sure if it is the exact
model I will enter in the trials:
<http://www.heronbicycles.com/rand.html>

Todd Kuzma
Heron Bicycles
Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776
http://www.heronbicycles.com
http://www.tullios.com

My vote is for this....
http://www2.trekbikes.com/Bikes/Specialty_Bikes/Trekking/X500/index.php

"Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"What features of a road bicycle do you
think will be required?"

After reading about the condition of the "roads" they wil be using for
these trials, an old (but refrubished) built like a tank Schwinn Varsity
comes to mind....

- -

"May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

Todd Kuzma said:

bfd said:

Paul Kopit said:

There is an event being conducted that will have riders racing over a
course that rewards sturdy road bicycles and their design. I'm guess
that you'll see 36 hole wheelsets, wider tires, and old fashioned
downtube or barend shifters.

http://www.technicaltrials.org/

I"m not strong enough to be the rider but I would enjoy getting
involved with designing the bicycle.

What features of a road bicycle do you think will be required?

If you think you need a "sturdy" or "durable" bike, then I agree, put
something together that's "conservative", especially by today's
standard and enjoy.....

My design for such a bike is fairly traditional, but that
doesn't mean that the bike HAS to be built like older bikes.
Hopefully, this competition will inspire some creativity,
and we'll see some new ideas.

BTW, here's my take, but I'm not sure if it is the exact
model I will enter in the trials:
<http://www.heronbicycles.com/rand.html>

Classic good looks.

Ron

"Kurd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

My vote is for this....
http://www2.trekbikes.com/Bikes/Specialty_Bikes/Trekking/X500/index.php

Do you have any experience with Trek accessories and proprietary
parts? I would expect the lights, stem, plastic chainring protector,
internal headset, and maybe wheels and tires to fail quickly. Trek
racks aren't known for reliability, either, although I don't know
anything the particular racks on the X500.
I think Trek's aluminum frames are ideal for such an event, and the
Shimano stuff would probably do okay, but the rest of the bike seems
inappropriate.

(Vee) said:

"Kurd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

My vote is for this....
http://www2.trekbikes.com/Bikes/Specialty_Bikes/Trekking/X500/index.php

Do you have any experience with Trek accessories and proprietary
parts? I would expect the lights, stem, plastic chainring protector,
internal headset, and maybe wheels and tires to fail quickly. Trek
racks aren't known for reliability, either, although I don't know
anything the particular racks on the X500.
I think Trek's aluminum frames are ideal for such an event, and the
Shimano stuff would probably do okay, but the rest of the bike seems
inappropriate.

I don't think that the jockeys of these machines will be concerned
about racks. The riders will likely be Ultra riders that do events of
200+ miles. They will be racing and not touring. The frequently ride
on the hoods or aerobars with seat height 2-4" above the bars.

I don't believe that they will need fenders. The rides will be in
California. The tire size will likely be 700x28. Were it me, I'd go
for 135 mm x 36 hole MTB hubs.

Brakes will be important. Perhaps a disk in the rear and a long reach
dual pivot in the front.

The bikes might have a beam for rider comfort. Beams have been used
for RAAM rides.

Non indexed barend or downtube shifters would be my choice. These
won't be head to head road races.

Paul Kopit said:

(Vee) said:

"Kurd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

My vote is for this:
http://www2.trekbikes.com/Bikes/Specialty_Bikes/Trekking/X500/index.php

Do you have any experience with Trek accessories and proprietary
parts? I would expect the lights, stem, plastic chainring
protector, internal headset, and maybe wheels and tires to fail
quickly. Trek racks aren't known for reliability, either, although
I don't know anything the particular racks on the X500.

I think Trek's aluminum frames are ideal for such an event, and the
Shimano stuff would probably do okay, but the rest of the bike seems
inappropriate.

I don't think that the jockeys of these machines will be concerned
about racks. The riders will likely be Ultra riders that do events
of 200+ miles. They will be racing and not touring. The frequently
ride on the hoods or aerobars with seat height 2-4" above the bars.

The Technical Trials are about a different crowd of people-
randonneurs, not RAAM racers. Randonneurs do ultra-long rides without
a support car following them. Support cars can only meet the riders
at the checkpoints (called "controles"😉; if the support car is found
to be on the course with the rider, the rider is disqualified. At
PBP, the riders and the support cars actually are on separate routes
that intersect only at the controles. Human nature being what it is,
there are randonneurs who do choose to race these events. Of the
4000+ who did PBP in 2003, though, maybe 200 were trying to race it.
They are the very small minority of people taking part in these
events.

BTW, racks and fenders were common at PBP and on the brevet
qualifiers. Riding in the rain without fenders at these distances is
pretty miserable. Since self-sufficiency is one of the established
values of randonneuring, racks and moderate-sized luggage are normal
accoutremonts in this sport.

Quoted message said:

I don't believe that they will need fenders. The rides will be in
California.

Where of course it never rains. ;-) When you're on a 750 mile ride,
fenders are good insurance.

Quoted message said:

The tire size will likely be 700x28. Were it me, I'd go for 135 mm
x 36 hole MTB hubs.

I think that'd be a very good idea. The reduced dish and extra few
grams would be good insurance.

Quoted message said:

Brakes will be important. Perhaps a disk in the rear and a long
reach dual pivot in the front.

I think there will be a variety of solutions. I would be inclined
towards cantilevers or centerpulls on braze-on pivot mounts, myself-
lighter, simpler, more reliable, with a better chance of roadside
repair. Disc brakes at this point remain heavier and parts
availability is still not as widespread as one would hope.

Quoted message said:

The bikes might have a beam for rider comfort. Beams have been used
for RAAM rides.

A good saddle such as a Brooks B.17 or Pro can offer much the same
level of comfort for most people. I've known of people with back
trouble using suspension of some sort with good success.

Quoted message said:

Non indexed barend or downtube shifters would be my choice. These
won't be head to head road races.

Also good thinking, IMHO. Reliability is more important than
split-second shifting. A degree of minimalism is needed, because the
wet weight of the bike should be not much over 25 lbs- and yet
reliability is crucial.

If I was to describe a bike for randonneuring, it would be a bike with
28 to 35 mm wide tires on 36 spoke wheels, with handlebars almost
level with the saddle. A medium sized handlebar bag on a small rack
or a medum sized trunk bag on a rack, containing rain gear and
clothing for the neight-time sections of the ride (including a
reflective vest, warm jersey, arm and leg warmers and light
long-fingered gloves, and some emergency food supplies. I was on a
summer ride where the temperature dropped below 30F according to a
bank thermometer at 2:30 AM; on PBP in 2003, the nights were very cold
and many people found themselves without adequate clothing). Lighting
is permanently mounted to the bike and powered by a hub generator,
with the headlight mounted low in front; spare bulbs are carried,
along with at least one battery powered backup light for reading maps
and making repairs, and in a worse-come-to-worse scenario of the main
lighting system being inoperable.

Quoted message said:

Brakes will be important. Perhaps a disk in the rear and a long reach
dual pivot in the front.

Why this combination?
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Squid-in-Training said:

Quoted message said:

Brakes will be important. Perhaps a disk in the rear and a long reach
dual pivot in the front.

Why this combination?

You need very good brakes coming downhill on broken, steep, twisting
roads. The long reach dual pivot has a longer arm for more force and
you don't need the mount on the fork for a cantilever brake. The
Carbon Fiber forks are very strong and light as well. A disk, may
help if the road is wet. Certainly the disk will heat a lot but with
a large enough rotor would perform longer under heat than at a tire
and tube. Both brakes should clear enough mud.

These bicycles will not be carrying heavy, touring type loads.

Paul Kopit said:

Squid-in-Training said:

Quoted message said:

Brakes will be important. Perhaps a disk in the rear and a long
reach dual pivot in the front.

Why this combination?

You need very good brakes coming downhill on broken, steep, twisting
roads. The long reach dual pivot has a longer arm for more force
and you don't need the mount on the fork for a cantilever brake.

The longer arms are on the brake pad side of the pivot, which reduces
mechanical advantage from the brake lever side of the equation. This
would reduce rather than increase brake force. However, since most
randonneuring bikes have fenders, long reach dual pivots will be the
norm where dual pivots are used. However, cantilevers or centerpulls
are the traditional brakes of choice for these bikes (which doesn't
automatically make them the best choice). It will be interesting to
see what braking solutions are developed, though- I would bet that
some builders will indeed use disk brakes.

Quoted message said:

The Carbon Fiber forks are very strong and light as well. A disk,
may help if the road is wet. Certainly the disk will heat a lot but
with a large enough rotor would perform longer under heat than at a
tire and tube. Both brakes should clear enough mud.

While not a fan of carbon fiber myself, I am expecting to see some
builders make interesting use of the material. I would expect CF
fenders and perhaps CF stays weighing only a couple of ounces for the
whole set. CF racks, maybe? Or even CF rack trunks with locking
lids and integrated head/tail lights??

Quoted message said:

These bicycles will not be carrying heavy, touring type loads.

True.