TdF: Virenque vs Armstrong

Bob the Builder said:

There is something I do not quite get. Virenque won the KotM this
year and won the long Bastille day race with it's Cat1 climbs.
However, if he is so good why didn't he win at La Mongie and Plateau
de Beille? Or Alpe d'Huex TT? At La Mongie he was blown away by US
Postal. Is it because Lance had no interest in winning KotM and
that perhaps he'd be wasting is energy is chasing that He had bigger
fish to fry with the orverhall GC?

Basically, yes. Lance was not interested in KOTM. If he'd wanted it he
could undoubtedly have taken it, but it would have wrecked his strategy
for the overall classification. Virenque was not in the running for
that and therefore went all out for KOTM, amassing enough points to
take it on climbs that were irrelevant to the contenders for the
overall title. That's the way he had won it in the past. His
achievement this year was the greater as the rules had been tweaked to
make it harder to use that tactic.

Quoted message said:

For that matter, wht did Mayo do so badly? The word was he was the
dog's danglers when it comes to the ascending road?

Form. Before the Tour Lance was thought to be slightly off but he
turned out to be stronger than ever. He had devoted the previous year
to making sure that he peaked at the right moment. He had planned his
strategy as soon as the course was announced and made sure that his
training was appropriate it. Mayo and Ulrich are possibly more talented
than Lance but their preparation was not as focused. If Lance could
have held on to his form I think he would have tried the Olympic road
race, but the timing was wrong. If he had turned up for it I suspect he
would have looked very ordinary.

--
Dave...

Bob the Builder said:

Guys,
Forgive my fascination with climbing - strange that something you are

not

Quoted message said:

good at interests you even more. I have been watching some TdF 2004

DVD's.

Quoted message said:

There is something I do not quite get. Virenque won the KotM this

year and

Quoted message said:

won the long Bastille day race with it's Cat1 climbs. However, if he

is so

Quoted message said:

good why didn't he win at La Mongie and Plateau de Beille? Or Alpe

d'Huex

Quoted message said:

TT? At La Mongie he was blown away by US Postal. Is it because

Lance had

Quoted message said:

no interest in winning KotM and that perhaps he'd be wasting is

energy is

Quoted message said:

chasing that He had bigger fish to fry with the orverhall GC?

Probably. And conversely, Virenque was probably more interested in the
polka-dot jersey than GC, so may have gone for the strategy of
acquiring KoM points through consistency on the non-HC climbs (as per
Laurent Jalabert's KoM titles) rather than stage wins or GC-challenging
attacks.

David E. Belcher

Bob the Builder <[email hidden]> wrote:

: TT? At La Mongie he was blown away by US Postal. Is it because Lance had
: no interest in winning KotM and that perhaps he'd be wasting is energy is
: chasing that He had bigger fish to fry with the orverhall GC?

That's a good summary. Lance needs to conserve energy to deal with the
real threats.

: For that matter, wht did Mayo do so badly? The word was he was the dog's
: danglers when it comes to the ascending road?

Probably he peaked too soon. He was going well a month before the tour.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness

dkahn400 said:

Virenque was not in the running for that and therefore went all out
for KOTM, amassing enough points to take it on climbs that were
irrelevant to the contenders for the overall title. That's the way he
had won it in the past.

Not really so. Virenque was a GC contender in his mid-nineties heyday (5th
in '94, 3rd in '96, 2nd in '97) and was often climbing alongside the likes
of Indurain, Riis, Ullrich, and Pantani. Virenque's win this summer was
modelled more closely on Jalabert's KotM wins in 2001 and 2002 where,
having put himself out of GC contention early in the race, he was free to
pick off KotM points in the mountains without putting pressure on Armstrong
for the overall lead.

James Thomson

James Thomson <[email hidden]> wrote:

: Not really so. Virenque was a GC contender in his mid-nineties heyday (5th
: in '94, 3rd in '96, 2nd in '97) and was often climbing alongside the likes

It's notable that he was a contender for the GC when taking drugs. Once he
came back from his ban, he's only gone for the KoM via the long raids.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness

dkahn400 <[email hidden]> wrote:

: training was appropriate it. Mayo and Ulrich are possibly more talented
: than Lance but their preparation was not as focused. If Lance could

More talented? Ulrich maybe, Mayo no IMO.

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness

James Thomson said:

Virenque's win this summer was modelled more closely on Jalabert's
KotM wins in 2001 and 2002 where, having put himself out of GC
contention early in the race, he was free to pick off KotM points
in the mountains without putting pressure on Armstrong for the
overall lead.

Yes, he was a different rider in the 90's. But I think you are
overlooking his 2003 win where he gained the polka dot and the yellow
jerseys early on. He was not realistically going to hold on to the
yellow but he did make sure of the KOTM by going for long breaks and
attacking those climbs that were not important to the contenders for
the GC.

--
Dave...

Arthur Clune said:

dkahn400 <[email hidden]> wrote:

: training was appropriate it. Mayo and Ulrich are possibly more

talented

Quoted message said:

: than Lance but their preparation was not as focused. If Lance could

More talented? Ulrich maybe, Mayo no IMO.

I did say "possibly". Time will tell.

--
Dave...

dkahn400 said:

Yes, he was a different rider in the 90's. But I think you are
overlooking his 2003 win where he gained the polka dot and
the yellow jerseys early on. He was not realistically going to
hold on to the yellow but he did make sure of the KOTM by
going for long breaks and attacking those climbs that were
not important to the contenders for the GC.

You did make the generalisation that "that's the way he had won it in the
past" - though I suppose that could be interpreted "that's the way he had
won it on one occasion in the past".

In any case, '03 certainly looks far more similar to '04 than his
mid-nineties wins, but I'm not sure that the comparison bears close
scrutiny. In '03, he took yellow in a lone break early in the race, and (as
race leader) was shadowed by USPS the following day, losing touch on the
final climb when Armstrong attacked. Aside from those two days (a solo
stage win, and a day defending yellow) most of his KotM points were gained
in a single stage where he joined a break of minor players, and was riding
for the stage win (he came third).

In '04 he made a good start in the KotM competition with his long solo
break on the Limoges - St Flour, but his defense of the jersey was
tactically pure Jalabert, sacrificing his chances of stage victory at Le
Grand Bornand in order to mop up KotM points on the early climbs.

James Thomson