TdF tech

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

This aspect of this race is interesting to most of us on the NG, of
course. AND I can even ignore the dude advertising Bontrager carbon
tubular wheels..."everyday wheels!!", I wonder if all the clones rushed
down to their local Trek dealer to get some...like Assos chamois cream
when Lance mentioned it...

BUT-pulleys falling out of rear derailleurs(Oooops) and the [censored] poor
braking of carbon rims...really spectacular crash on Sundays stage.

Guy that works for me...small, compact, light, teeny discs? for carbon
rim-ed race wheels?

Not actually a bad idea. Like Moto-GP...the stuff they race doesn't
have to be available to the public...

Peter,

I wonder if you're getting cranky and senile in your old age, you're
always ranting lately about carbon wheels.

I was annoyed by the Trek/Bontrager/HED carbon wheels "infomercials" on
OLN in Sunday's coverage as much as anyone here, but to suggest that
the crash had to anything to do with carbon wheels and cork pads is the
height of hypocrisy. If you watched the coverage it was VERY evident
that Canada went through a sandy patch (dust was kicked up as he rode
thru) near the apex of the turn, maybe over-reacted just a tad,
resulting in the horrific crash that almost bought the farm for
Kessler.

I don't think the results (in that corner) would had been any different
had they be using standard aluminum rims and "standard" brake shoe
compounds. For all we know, they might even have used standard
aluminum wheels in this instance.

And In case your wondering, I don't own any carbon wheels nor do I own
any stock in any company that produces carbon wheels. I don't
understand why you feel the need to rant against carbon wheels. Are
the carbon wheels stealing your lunch or something?

damyth said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

This aspect of this race is interesting to most of us on the NG, of
course. AND I can even ignore the dude advertising Bontrager carbon
tubular wheels..."everyday wheels!!", I wonder if all the clones rushed
down to their local Trek dealer to get some...like Assos chamois cream
when Lance mentioned it...

BUT-pulleys falling out of rear derailleurs(Oooops) and the [censored] poor
braking of carbon rims...really spectacular crash on Sundays stage.

Guy that works for me...small, compact, light, teeny discs? for carbon
rim-ed race wheels?

Not actually a bad idea. Like Moto-GP...the stuff they race doesn't
have to be available to the public...

Peter,

I wonder if you're getting cranky and senile in your old age, you're
always ranting lately about carbon wheels.

"Getting" cranky? Most of the stuffd on bikes these days are really
stoopid, have been for 2 decaders and carbon wheels are a great,
supported racer' wheel, made available and sold to those who don't need
them.

Quoted message said:

I was annoyed by the Trek/Bontrager/HED carbon wheels "infomercials" on
OLN in Sunday's coverage as much as anyone here, but to suggest that
the crash had to anything to do with carbon wheels and cork pads is the
height of hypocrisy. If you watched the coverage it was VERY evident
that Canada went through a sandy patch (dust was kicked up as he rode
thru) near the apex of the turn, maybe over-reacted just a tad,
resulting in the horrific crash that almost bought the farm for
Kessler.

Hey big fella, ever rode carbon rimmed wheels? Smooth, tracktable
braking? Like aluminum rims? Not hardly, not with any whiz-bang
pad...grabby, noisey, then whamo-brake big, skid. Not saying the crash
was 'caused' by carbon wheels, saying that carbon wheels don't offer
the braking performance that aluminum rim wheels do-'height of
hepocrisy"-not sure what ya mean here, I am being hypocrtical how?
about these wheels??

Quoted message said:

I don't think the results (in that corner) would had been any different
had they be using standard aluminum rims and "standard" brake shoe
compounds. For all we know, they might even have used standard
aluminum wheels in this instance.

How many of those who crashed had carbon rims and how many that did not
crash have aluminum rims??

Quoted message said:

And In case your wondering, I don't own any carbon wheels nor do I own
any stock in any company that produces carbon wheels. I don't
understand why you feel the need to rant against carbon wheels. Are
the carbon wheels stealing your lunch or something?"

Like so much bicycle, expensive carbon rims that don't perform well to
the general public, makes cycling expensive and oftimes
diffucult...these things go outta true quickly often under that 200
pound guy, and off the bike he sits, waiting for a fix or a truing or a
spoke...those unique to these wheels, spokes...dumm and dummer, like
ohh so much 'bicycle' these days.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

damyth said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

This aspect of this race is interesting to most of us on the NG, of
course. AND I can even ignore the dude advertising Bontrager carbon
tubular wheels..."everyday wheels!!", I wonder if all the clones rushed
down to their local Trek dealer to get some...like Assos chamois cream
when Lance mentioned it...

BUT-pulleys falling out of rear derailleurs(Oooops) and the [censored] poor
braking of carbon rims...really spectacular crash on Sundays stage.

Guy that works for me...small, compact, light, teeny discs? for carbon
rim-ed race wheels?

Not actually a bad idea. Like Moto-GP...the stuff they race doesn't
have to be available to the public...

Peter,

I wonder if you're getting cranky and senile in your old age, you're
always ranting lately about carbon wheels.

"Getting" cranky? Most of the stuffd on bikes these days are really
stoopid, have been for 2 decaders and carbon wheels are a great,
supported racer' wheel, made available and sold to those who don't need
them.

TdF equipment has never been meant for the contemporaneous masses.
Henri Desgrange, founder of TdF, said in L'Equipe in 1902, "I still
feel variable gears are for people over 45. Isn't it better to triumph
by the strength of your muscles than the artifice of a derailer? ....As
for me, give me a fixed gear!"

The same could be said of weekend warriors who don't "need" Dura Ace or
Record on their bikes, but have them on their bikes anyways. Or
tubulars, for that matter.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was annoyed by the Trek/Bontrager/HED carbon wheels "infomercials" on
OLN in Sunday's coverage as much as anyone here, but to suggest that
the crash had to anything to do with carbon wheels and cork pads is the
height of hypocrisy. If you watched the coverage it was VERY evident
that Canada went through a sandy patch (dust was kicked up as he rode
thru) near the apex of the turn, maybe over-reacted just a tad,
resulting in the horrific crash that almost bought the farm for
Kessler.

Hey big fella, ever rode carbon rimmed wheels? Smooth, tracktable
braking? Like aluminum rims? Not hardly, not with any whiz-bang
pad...grabby, noisey, then whamo-brake big, skid. Not saying the crash
was 'caused' by carbon wheels, saying that carbon wheels don't offer
the braking performance that aluminum rim wheels do-'height of
hepocrisy"-not sure what ya mean here, I am being hypocrtical how?
about these wheels??

Sure I've ridden carbon wheels. Used to work in a bike shop, had
plenty of opportunities to ride them. I don't really care for them,
but I recognize that's my personal opinion.

You were being hypocritical when you tried to link Sunday's crash to
carbon wheels/cork compounds. This is what you wrote:
"BUT-pulleys falling out of rear derailleurs(Oooops) and the [censored] poor
braking of carbon rims...really spectacular crash on Sundays stage."

Don't even bother to deny you were attempting to make this linkage.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think the results (in that corner) would had been any different
had they be using standard aluminum rims and "standard" brake shoe
compounds. For all we know, they might even have used standard
aluminum wheels in this instance.

How many of those who crashed had carbon rims and how many that did not
crash have aluminum rims??

And this is precisely the point isn't it? If you knew who were riding
carbon vs. aluminum during that fateful event, why would you need to
ask?? Point is you don't know who was riding carbon or aluminum, and
to assign blame to wheels/brakes when there was a serious patch of sand
and melting tar/asphalt on the ground is not only non-sequitur but
ludicrous.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And In case your wondering, I don't own any carbon wheels nor do I own
any stock in any company that produces carbon wheels. I don't
understand why you feel the need to rant against carbon wheels. Are
the carbon wheels stealing your lunch or something?"

Like so much bicycle, expensive carbon rims that don't perform well to
the general public, makes cycling expensive and oftimes
diffucult...these things go outta true quickly often under that 200
pound guy, and off the bike he sits, waiting for a fix or a truing or a
spoke...those unique to these wheels, spokes...dumm and dummer, like
ohh so much 'bicycle' these days.

In any case, you're preaching to the choir here regarding
carbon/boutique wheels for us "common" (non-pro) riders. How many
riders in the TdF do you know that's over 200 pounds besides Magnus
Backstedt? I think 98% of the field isn't over 175 pounds.

Bill Sornson said:

Did you watch the video? Yes or no. Watch it and then tell me there's no
sand or gravel in that turn.

On the right side of the road it looks like sand but it could be the
road is just a different color, or there's some reflection on wet
pavement that's making it look different in color. Just looking, I'd
say it's sand, but surely the video is not conclusive enough.

On the left, where Kessler goes over the barricades, there is
certainly sand, but he was already crashing there so that sand isn't
relevant.

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

damyth said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

damyth said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> This aspect of this race is interesting to most of us on the NG, of
> course. AND I can even ignore the dude advertising Bontrager carbon
> tubular wheels..."everyday wheels!!", I wonder if all the clones rushed
> down to their local Trek dealer to get some...like Assos chamois cream
> when Lance mentioned it...
>
> BUT-pulleys falling out of rear derailleurs(Oooops) and the [censored] poor
> braking of carbon rims...really spectacular crash on Sundays stage.
>
> Guy that works for me...small, compact, light, teeny discs? for carbon
> rim-ed race wheels?
>
> Not actually a bad idea. Like Moto-GP...the stuff they race doesn't
> have to be available to the public...

Peter,

I wonder if you're getting cranky and senile in your old age, you're
always ranting lately about carbon wheels.

"Getting" cranky? Most of the stuffd on bikes these days are really
stoopid, have been for 2 decaders and carbon wheels are a great,
supported racer' wheel, made available and sold to those who don't need
them.

TdF equipment has never been meant for the contemporaneous masses.
Henri Desgrange, founder of TdF, said in L'Equipe in 1902, "I still
feel variable gears are for people over 45. Isn't it better to triumph
by the strength of your muscles than the artifice of a derailer? ....As
for me, give me a fixed gear!"

The same could be said of weekend warriors who don't "need" Dura Ace or
Record on their bikes, but have them on their bikes anyways. Or
tubulars, for that matter.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was annoyed by the Trek/Bontrager/HED carbon wheels "infomercials" on
OLN in Sunday's coverage as much as anyone here, but to suggest that
the crash had to anything to do with carbon wheels and cork pads is the
height of hypocrisy. If you watched the coverage it was VERY evident
that Canada went through a sandy patch (dust was kicked up as he rode
thru) near the apex of the turn, maybe over-reacted just a tad,
resulting in the horrific crash that almost bought the farm for
Kessler.

Hey big fella, ever rode carbon rimmed wheels? Smooth, tracktable
braking? Like aluminum rims? Not hardly, not with any whiz-bang
pad...grabby, noisey, then whamo-brake big, skid. Not saying the crash
was 'caused' by carbon wheels, saying that carbon wheels don't offer
the braking performance that aluminum rim wheels do-'height of
hepocrisy"-not sure what ya mean here, I am being hypocrtical how?
about these wheels??

Sure I've ridden carbon wheels. Used to work in a bike shop, had
plenty of opportunities to ride them. I don't really care for them,
but I recognize that's my personal opinion.

You were being hypocritical when you tried to link Sunday's crash to
carbon wheels/cork compounds. This is what you wrote:
"BUT-pulleys falling out of rear derailleurs(Oooops) and the [censored] poor
braking of carbon rims...really spectacular crash on Sundays stage."

Don't even bother to deny you were attempting to make this linkage.

Do I think the pisspoor braking of carbon rims contributed to this
crash, you bet their ass I do...and you can show me nothing that says
tey didn't. Braking on carbon rims is much less effective than aluminum
rims-period.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think the results (in that corner) would had been any different
had they be using standard aluminum rims and "standard" brake shoe
compounds. For all we know, they might even have used standard
aluminum wheels in this instance.

How many of those who crashed had carbon rims and how many that did not
crash have aluminum rims??

And this is precisely the point isn't it? If you knew who were riding
carbon vs. aluminum during that fateful event, why would you need to
ask?? Point is you don't know who was riding carbon or aluminum, and
to assign blame to wheels/brakes when there was a serious patch of sand
and melting tar/asphalt on the ground is not only non-sequitur but
ludicrous.

ahhhh, but I do know......

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And In case your wondering, I don't own any carbon wheels nor do I own
any stock in any company that produces carbon wheels. I don't
understand why you feel the need to rant against carbon wheels. Are
the carbon wheels stealing your lunch or something?"

Like so much bicycle, expensive carbon rims that don't perform well to
the general public, makes cycling expensive and oftimes
diffucult...these things go outta true quickly often under that 200
pound guy, and off the bike he sits, waiting for a fix or a truing or a
spoke...those unique to these wheels, spokes...dumm and dummer, like
ohh so much 'bicycle' these days.

In any case, you're preaching to the choir here regarding
carbon/boutique wheels for us "common" (non-pro) riders. How many
riders in the TdF do you know that's over 200 pounds besides Magnus
Backstedt? I think 98% of the field isn't over 175 pounds.

not the point....point is that carbon rims don't brake
well...........nothing more, nothing less....

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Bill Sornson said:

Did you watch the video? Yes or no. Watch it and then tell me
there's no sand or gravel in that turn.

On the right side of the road it looks like sand but it could be the
road is just a different color, or there's some reflection on wet
pavement that's making it look different in color. Just looking, I'd
say it's sand, but surely the video is not conclusive enough.

Read Mark's comments in the thread. He did the frame-by-frame thing.

Quoted message said:

On the left, where Kessler goes over the barricades, there is
certainly sand, but he was already crashing there so that sand isn't
relevant.

Right, it's only the sand on the right side (right at the right turn spot)
that's under discussion.

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 19:06:55 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

(with very, very clear video).

Where did you obtain this video? From TV?

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 19:06:55 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

(with very, very clear video).

Where did you obtain this video? From TV?

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Well, it wasn't IMAX.

Bill Sornson said:

I agree, however: what really matters is the crash was ugly, and some
riders got hurt while others were pretty damned lucky.

Bill "I still liked the rocks in the lid vents" S.

Has a photo of that been introduced to the helmet debacle, er, debate?

Ron

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 19:06:55 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

(with very, very clear video).

Where did you obtain this video? From TV?

Would you believe I had a personal valet on a motorcycle directly
behind the rider? ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

RonSonic said:

Bill Sornson said:

I agree, however: what really matters is the crash was ugly, and
some riders got hurt while others were pretty damned lucky.

Bill "I still liked the rocks in the lid vents" S.

Has a photo of that been introduced to the helmet debacle, er, debate?

Ooh, good idea! <eg>

Mark Hickey said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 19:06:55 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

(with very, very clear video).

Where did you obtain this video? From TV?

Would you believe I had a personal valet on a motorcycle directly
behind the rider? ;-)

Connections. It's always about connections...

Sandy said:

I can't say, really, but I looked at this several times. We have lots
of places on roads where there are lighter tinted patches, but I see
nothing on the inside of the turn that moves. At the end of the light
colored area, I see a black patch, also, again typical of our road work.

Why does this matter ? It was a horrible crash, in any event. Someone
asked if we can't just clean the roads with a "sweeper". Well, our
employment scheme is such, that much is done by manual labor, and such
machines are not in use.

It doesn't take much loose stuff to undercut a wheel, anyway.

On this side of the pond, I know all the Tour de Georgia marshals and
volunteers were issued brooms to sweep sand and dirt off the road. In
the (much better funded and publicized) TdF, do they do likewise? It
just seems odd on TV, the way so many back roads look like they've
been miraculously paved in the last three months, that such a large
deposit of sand in an obviously dangerous turn would be left
untouched.

Pat

Email address works as is.