TCTP

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
You said that 215w FPT would allow a CAT4, the original poster, to ride with most group rides....

I didn't make the statement above, perhaps you're confusing my posts with some else's.

I was only struggling to understand how 5.5 w/kg was insufficient to run down casual riders on hills as that's not even close to my experiences nor of those riders I work with whose power files I review. But I understand better if you sustained that 5.5 w/kg for a only a short duration.

But since you bring it up I've got plenty of team ride and race files including races where I placed or won where my AP is barely above the OPs FTP for an hour, your post did encourage me to take a look and sure some courses demand more sustained power but many do not.

Here's a screen shot from a P1/2/3 race where I took 4th overall and even got away for about six laps late in the race before getting chased down by a small group that I stuck with to the finishing sprint. My AP for an hour was almost exactly the OPs FTP and I was about fifteen pounds heavier than his current weight. Earlier that morning I won the Masters 45+ race, also ridden at just over 25 mph average with 212 watts for ~40 minutes, again not a huge stretch given the OPs current FTP especially at his lower race weight. AP of course does not tell the whole story and I had to dig deep in both races at critical times for instance with a peak 10 minutes of 256 watts and a peak 5 minutes of 267 watts during my solo off the front and an NP for the afternoon race of 239 for an hour which is above the OPs current FTP but it's not all that far above his FTP and that was racing against upper category racers not Cat 4s or club riders.
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And yes, riding skills are very important in crits but you'll only develop them by getting out and riding with fast groups or by racing and we all have to start somewhere.

-Dave

In case you guys were interested. This was the ride plot from my first Crit. I stayed with the group the whole time. But then crashed. Got put back in. The power data is from the first 1/3 of the race before the crash. The power computer was off for the remainder of the race because of the crash... Race was 25 min + 5 laps. Last lap it picked up again and strung out. Guys in front of me fell off the pack on the last lap. Did not have enough power to bridge up to the gap. Finished right behind the pack.

My next race will be this Saturday. They also have a crit on Sunday. But I'll probably just do the circuit and see how I feel.
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Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I didn't make the statement above, perhaps you're confusing my posts with some else's.

I was only struggling to understand how 5.5 w/kg was insufficient to run down casual riders on hills as that's not even close to my experiences nor of those riders I work with whose power files I review. But I understand better if you sustained that 5.5 w/kg for a only a short duration.

But since you bring it up I've got plenty of team ride and race files including races where I placed or won where my AP is barely above the OPs FTP for an hour, your post did encourage me to take a look and sure some courses demand more sustained power but many do not.

It seems that in part you were indeed mistaken for another - danfoz. But not completely.

You seem to be saying that 5.5w/kg (300-350w) is sufficient to run down casual riders. There are a lot of casual riders who do ride fast enough that they pass quickly me while I am riding at 300-350w. That tells me that those casual riders are putting out more than 300-350w. And that they can do so for extended periods of time - at least a couple miles.

---

I am pleased you won races putting out only 215w or so. But that effort gets you dropped on on the fast friendly rides around here.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Mac_Biker [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

In case you guys were interested. This was the ride plot from my first Crit. I stayed with the group the whole time. But then crashed. Got put back in. The power data is from the first 1/3 of the race before the crash. The power computer was off for the remainder of the race because of the crash... Race was 25 min + 5 laps. Last lap it picked up again and strung out. Guys in front of me fell off the pack on the last lap. Did not have enough power to bridge up to the gap. Finished right behind the pack.

My next race will be this Saturday. They also have a crit on Sunday. But I'll probably just do the circuit and see how I feel.

I hope you do well. If you enjoy racing, race.

I don't know how you train, but you might try to ride on the slowest group you are unable to keep up with. When you can lead the group for most of the ride, find a faster group to ride with. Might make you stronger. It will certainly get you some practice riding with a group.

I've never done a circuit race.
Tomorrow's course will be 1.3 mile. 30 min + 3 laps. 2 mild climbs and an uphill finish.
What should I expect?

Is this like a crit, sit near the front?
Cornering?

Thanks.

Circuit races vary a lot, but yours sounds more like a long crit course with 1.3 mile laps. But in general circuit courses are ridden more like road races with less sustained speed and less emphasis on cornering skills but often with a lot more climbing than most crits even if it's only a minute or two per climb.

Yes, it's always good to be near but not necessarily at the front. Fewer pace changes, less chance of tired riders opening gaps in front of you and typically safer in the front 10 riders or so. But only go right to the front or even up into the front three if it's in your best interest to do so. IOW, don't tow the field around out of a sense of duty or a club ride mentality just to get spit out the back at the first surge or on a climb. But don't shirk short pulls either if it helps you maintain your forward position. Sometimes a quick pull that doesn't exhaust you can help make the overall race easier by keeping you up front.

It should be a good learning experience but definitely try to think about every effort, don't work harder than you need to, stay on a wheel and in a good draft as much as possible and be very aware of what's happening up front and on both sides so you can react more quickly and with a less intense efforts as surges and attacks occur so you don't have to burn huge matches to close each gap.

Good luck and let us know how it goes,
-Dave

very cold and rainy this morning in St Louis.
got to the race early to register... sat around for an hour shivering in the cold.
The 4/5 circuit starts they shorten it to 25min + 3 laps (1.3mile).
First lap into it, I'm thinking wow this is slow, maybe I need to go off the front.
I'm riding in the very back at this point. After a couple of turns I move up a few spots.
And then the second lap hits and it's an uphill section, the riders in front of me are gapped.
[censored], I jump out of my saddle to get around them and to the group. A few others guys are off the back and I'm behind them.
I ran out of gas. Ended up riding by myself for a couple of laps until the group caught up with me (the group at this time is significantly smaller than what we started with).
And it was not hard staying in the group. It felt weird being a lapped rider in the group though, so I turned off in shame and went home.

Sucks big time. I just feel out of shape and disappointed. I'm thinking that I'm going to go back to the drawing board.
Maybe I need a coach?
Maybe I need more high end intervals?
The next races that I'll do will be the training crits on Tuesday nights, they start in May.

My power meter was not recording for some odd reason, so I do not have any power data.

I'm seriously thinking about just spending this entire year building my aerobic engine and racing next year.

Tough day at the office. Do you think you would've been alright but for getting caught behind slower riders during the second time up that hill?

If you know you're a good climber (relative to your comp), you can enjoy the luxury of being in the back when approaching a climb, but if you know climbing is not a strength (again, relative to comp) then you need to gain as many spots as you can in the run-up to the hill as you'll inevitably slide back on the ascent.

You say you got back into the main group, how many laps did you continue with them? Were you able to hang in during the climb? If so, you can feel confident that your fitness is satisfactory and you probably could've finished the race. If you weren't able to stay with the lead group on the climb, then reassessing your strat is good idea. Maybe, flatter races should be your forte.

I wouldn't get too far down. Even with this non-success, you've gained valuable information...learn from it and use it to your advantage - don't let it discourage you too much...it's natural to feel this way after getting dropped (I know I do too), but it's not cause for drastic change...

the main group got back to me...
I was lapped.
Yes, it not too bad to keep up with them.
I should have had enough power to accelerate and not get dropped the first time around though.

I think if I were towards the front, I would have fared a little bit better.
I actually enjoyed riding at the back too though, it allowed me to take the corners without having to worry about slowing and accelerating as much.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Mac_Biker [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
...It felt weird being a lapped rider in the group though, so I turned off in shame and went home...

That's ashame, there's always something you can learn by finishing the race as long as you're with a substantial group. Throwing in the towel represents a missed opportunity to gain more race day pack riding experience including end game experience. As long as they're not pulling lapped riders or a lapped field it's in your best interest to finish, if nothing else for the training.

Quoted post said:

Sucks big time. I just feel out of shape and disappointed. I'm thinking that I'm going to go back to the drawing board.
... I'm seriously thinking about just spending this entire year building my aerobic engine and racing next year.

No doubt more time building fitness is a good idea but I would still do some racing this season. You've got to develop race skills at some point and it sounds to me like getting gapped by the leaders had a lot more to do with positioning issues (riding at the rear of the group and having to burn matches to pass slower riders) than pure fitness.

But sure, some serious focus on building the engine is a good idea and I'd strongly recommend SST/L4/L5 work for that as opposed to high end short interval work. But I wouldn't scrap racing all together, still get out and do some racing perhaps on courses more suited to your current fitness and or skills. IOW, fewer hills if hills are giving you trouble, a wider less technical flat crit if corners are giving you trouble. But try to get to some more races as you've got to pay dues eventually and you might as well keep working on your pack riding and racing skills now so you've got a bigger bag of tricks later in the season or in subsequent seasons when your fitness has increased.

If you haven't done so, buy a copy of: http://www.amazon.com/Racing-Tactics-Cyclists-Thomas-Prehn/dp/1931382301

Pay close attention to the sections on safe riding in the pack, gap management by anticipating surges and attacks, and tactics for dealing with rolling climbs and the field splits that often occur as the leaders crest them. Some really good information in there and some very subtle but important ways to save energy.

Too bad you didn't get power data, that would have been useful to figure out if the basic pace was too high, the initial gap closing effort was too dramatic or perhaps too many little jumps in a row getting around folks or perhaps you went a bit overboard in the initial chase and couldn't finish the job. I've certainly done all those things many times but the power data can help you see what happened in an objective way. If it's a PT hub you might want to replace the hub batteries with the EPX76 version that last longer and handle cold weather much better than the standard A76 version.

Good on ya for getting out there on a cold morning, but I wouldn't read too much into it. Racing is tough and like any sport there's a lot of skills to build before you'll really be proficient and a lot of the more subtle skills involve things like being in the right place and reacting smoothly and quickly to attacks so you can go with the flow and not be forced to chase. That and you never know who'll show up on any given day so there's always a bit of a gamble as to whether you should chase on stay with the field.

And definitely work on staying further forward. Yeah, you can avoid some of the accordian effect by tail gunning but you're also at a big disadvantage when it comes to responding to attacks and in general means you're not riding as tightly on others wheels or getting as much draft but again the big disadvantage is that the race is happening at the front and when a major move or surge lights up you've first got to get up front and past all the slower riders before you can even begin to respond. If you're not as comfortable as you'd like to be riding in the thick of things and up in the front third of the field then all the more reason to do some more races and to finish all the races you enter so that you can develop those skills.

Good luck,
-Dave

Gotcha' on the lapped part.
Again, I don't think anything drastic is necessary - not dissuading you from a coach, however. Nevertheless, I do believe you should look at these early races more as training as opposed to major events. Viewing them in this respect will keep you from getting as down, IMO.

I think doing some L5 work (3-5min hard intervals) at this time would be a good idea. Early in, and once a week with up to 20mins total duration is sufficient. You'll get plenty during races as well...

Well, if you know you won't be contending or figuring in the placings of the race, then I suppose "joyriding" at the back is not an issue and you can gain some perspective on tactics and positioning when in the peloton. But when you're actually 'in the race', you ride at the back at your peril...I'm sure you've already took a look at the thread I started on "How to get dropped in a crit 101"...LOL!

Quote: But sure, some serious focus on building the engine is a good idea and I'd strongly recommend SST/L4/L5 work for that as opposed to high end short interval work. But I wouldn't scrap racing all together, still get out and do some racing perhaps on courses more suited to your current fitness and or skills. IOW, fewer hills if hills are giving you trouble, a wider less technical flat crit if corners are giving you trouble. But try to get to some more races as you've got to pay dues eventually and you might as well keep working on your pack riding and racing skills now so you've got a bigger bag of tricks later in the season or in subsequent seasons when your fitness has increased.

Definitely feel bad about not finishing...
Wife's really upset at me for not finishing.

My next race will be the training Crit series on Tuesday nights. Starting in May.
When you mention SST/L4/L5 work. How should I structure this?
I can put in about 1 hour a day on the weekdays. Although Friday afternoons I can probably put in 1.5-2 hours. Saturday and Sunday are usually wide open.
I usually do a moderately fast group ride on Saturday and Sunday I generally don't do anything.

When you refer to SST, is that 85-90% of FTP? And how long do I hold that for? Is that like a 2x20?
I do my 2x20's at about 205 watts for an FTP of 216. With 5 minute of rest in between. That takes me 50 minutes in the mornings, 5 minutes to warm up. 2x20's then off the bike.
How about L5's how do you structure those?
Should the workouts go from SST -> L4 -> L5 with a rest day in there somewhere?
Where do you usually put the rest day?

My CTL has also been falling, since my wife and I took a trip to Chicago 2 weeks ago, it was hard getting back on the bike. I was about to hit 60 for CTL right now I'm at 52 or so.

Thanks.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Mac_Biker [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
...When you mention SST/L4/L5 work. How should I structure this?

There are lots of ways to structure your training but you might try something like this as a start for more SST/L4 as well as CTL building and then swap in some L5 once your CTL comes up a bit.

Mon: rest
Tues: 2x20 ~ 95% of FTP (always feel free to bump up the power on days you feel great, especially in the second effort)
Wed: 1.5 hours of Tempo/SST (75%-90% of FTP, fun fast pace but not brutal, work with the terrain just focus on fun quick riding)
Thurs: 2x20 ~90-95% of FTP (try for decent quality but be realistic, drop to SST or even Tempo if necessary but start with goal of 90% or more and adjust as necessary based on recovery from previous two days)
Fri: rest
Sat: 2-3 hours, 70%-85% of FTP. Pick a nice long ride and just ride but don't hold yourself back on any longer stretches of road or steady climbs. When you get out of town or onto good stretches of road try to roll a nice quick but comfortable Tempo pace, no problem if your pace gets up into Threshold on climbs but don't force it if it doesn't feel good)
Sun: Ideally you'd ride again today, either similar to yesterday or an SST/Threshold day. If that's tough with family obligations then move things around but five days a week often leads to big break throughs for folks that train well but train less. Even an hour of Tempo today would be very valuable.

If there's a local shop or club ride you can join on Saturday or Sunday that would be ideal for developing pack riding skills and fits within the general ideas above. Ideally you're looking for a group where you're not suffering to survive but also one where you're not riding recovery pace with big gaps between touring riders. The ideal weekend ride would get you out on some interesting roads, give you a lot of L2 and Tempo riding, maybe push you to Threshold on some hills and even further for some short bursts or short sprinters hills but not totally trash you as well as a group where they ride two up or even as a bunch on safe roads so you can learn to ride in close quarters with others.

In the plan above you could swap one of the Threshold sessions or the Sunday session for L5 work with something like 5x5 minute intervals (5 repeats, 5 minutes each, typically 5 minutes rest between each) or 6x4 or 8x3 or other variations of VO2 Max work targeting 115-120% of your FTP for each interval but tuned to what you can actually accomplish. There are other forms but those are pretty typical. I usually do L5 work on hills but sometimes do them on flat roads to really emphasize speed that I'd use for attacking or bridging to a break.

Any of the Threshold sessions could be swapped for a micro-interval style HOP session either blocked as 2x20s or just run as a long continuous set of micro-intervals as those are pretty useful for crits but still have a lot of FTP building benefits.

This isn't any kind of miracle schedule and nothing is cast in stone. The idea is to get a lot of quality work in during both the week and the weekend, to ride with a purpose when you ride, to ideally ride 5 days a week with the rest days spread out and to take advantage of more time on the weekends to do some longer riding. Move things around in any ways that make sense but try to avoid back to back rest days or back to back high end days.

-Dave

Don't get too discouraged. Honestly, from the sound of things you need race practice as much as anything else. Sure, you didn't have the power to get back on, but then again if you'd been in good position, or been quicker on the ball when the gap opened, you would also probably have been fine. For each race you do, try to find out where the key hills and corners are in advance, then be ready for them. Then others will be caught out, not you. As for fitness, for the kinds of races you are doing, +1 on Tony's L5 recommendation. When you are able to regularly hang with the pack to the end, I'll recommend some sprint work to see what you can do there.

Thanks for all the tips.
Most of my training is done on the trainer.
As I move more of my training outdoors, it'll be harder to maintain a certain pace.
When I approach hills, I tend to power up them.
Should I just take it easier on the hills and keep the power within l3/l4?
What about coasting downhill?
Stoplights?

Thanks.

It depends on the goals of the ride but in general don't kill the hills and don't completely coast the descents when possible at least when targeting steady Tempo/L4 style work. On more dynamic SST style days it can make sense to punch the climbs but still try to apply some pedal pressure on descents and get back into Tempo as soon as you can. Traffic interruptions are normal and no issue on longer endurance, Tempo or SST style riding.

On pure L4/L5 interval days try to pick sections of road that are long enough or hills that are long enough to complete the desired 3,4,5, 20, etc. minutes for the planned efforts without any traffic stops or ideally without any forced coasting for more than about 20 seconds at the longest. You want those steady interval efforts to be sustained and near your target intensity not a lot of bursts chained together with easier sections.

It can take some creativity to find suitable training roads that aren't too far from home. I had it easy in Wyoming but it's more of a challenge now that I live in a city but they're out there if you look around. I've got a few long interrupted training venues but I've used all kinds of places like deserted industrial parks on weekend mornings or laps around large parking lots near sports stadiums or other places when I want to do really long sustained work like full hour long L4 intervals. Try to find places where you don't have to coast around the corners but with some creativity you can find places to train.

-Dave

Good job showing up in the cold Mac. I know what you mean about being rough on yourself for not finishing. The pain in the legs disappears long before our own disappointment. I had the same DNF blues and decided, unless I'm in a wreck, I'll finish even if dead last. Voila, problem solved. Also, maybe it doesn't apply, but don't under estimate the value of a good warm-up, especially in an event less than an hour long. I know I've squandered away good fitness, usually when getting to an event late and not getting a chance to open up a bit before the start, especially important on cooler days and early morning events.

Everyone's got their own routines and they usually get longer with age. In my case a slow buildup of at least 20 minutes to threshold, ending with 2 x 1 minutes at just above threshold to open the pipes, ideally ending within ten minutes before the start. It helps lessen the odds of the screws being tightened on you in the earlier parts of a race. IME, the warm-up is usually the most important part of my preparation. I got dropped on the first climb at Bear Mountain last year because we arrived late and I hadn't gotten a chance to get my HR over 75%Max in the scant 5 minute roll around the parking lot. Guys had already ridden the full 15 mile hilly lap as a warm-up. The big climb started 5 minutes after a rolling start, and the pace went full tilt at the first ascent for 10 minutes flat. It wasn't a race I was focusing on, and I had some good results locally so I wasn't mentally beat up too bad, but I essentially blew all the fitness I had worked so hard for due to poor preparation.

I have a team mate who can roll up to a 6:30am start next to me with no warm-up and on little sleep after getting out of his 2am waiter shift, and win. I am not that guy.

And then of course there's the training...

thanks for all the tips.
Danfoz, definitely a warm up is necessary. I did not really warm up at all. I pedaled in the parking lot once or twice a couple minutes before starting.
That was not enough at all. I'll be sure to bring my trainer and set it up and warm up next time.

Dave,
If I find myself with extra time on a rest day. Can and should I get some riding in?
Maybe an L2/L3 to keep the intensity down?

Something's wrong with my powermeter, I'm thinking the hub's battery is out, not sure though.
Man I'm just hoping for the metrigear to release their pedal based system and I'll just forget about the powertap.

Thanks.

Mac_Biker,
PT hub batteries definitely die. I used to get about a season out of the usual A76 hearing aid batteries but had more than one set die during cold rides. As I mentioned the EPX76 silver oxide version last longer and perform far better in the cold. They cost a few bucks more but they're definitely worth it. BTW, batteries for other PMs die as well, even my SRM batteries only hold so many charges and then I've got to send the cranks in to SRM for a battery change. Metrigear sounds promising, but don't swap from PT just because the hub batteries died, that's to be expected.

Yes, you could add something on another day. I've used what I all 'soft tempo' days or some others call 'recovery' not 'rest' days where I go out and do some low Tempo for up to 45 minutes and try to accumulate a session TSS around half my current CTL. Those days typically leave me very refreshed and build a little extra CTL vs. a total rest day.

Just be careful if you only take one full rest day per week. Remember you need the training stress for the body to have a reason to adapt but the adaptation occurs during rest, not during exercise. Work out too much or squeeze in too many hard days and you'll just get yourself progressively more tired. You may not hit clinical overtraining with hormonal changes and the like but the net result can be similar if you burn out, stagnate or are just too tired on your core training days to do quality work. So only add extra training days, stretch sessions or add in extra intervals if you are consistently able to do solid work on the high quality days. IOW if your high end days are 2x20 L4 days and you start to dread them or can't finish the second effort or struggle to get into L4 then you probably don't need more workouts you probably need to be fresher on your most important training days. Same if your high end days are L5 and you can't get through a 5x5 set at reasonable L5 power.

So do more if it doesn't cost you quality on your core days or cost you too much freshness for A or B races (but be willing to train through some less important C races if you want to continue to improve). If you decide to do more I'd definitely keep it short and sweet, not too intense and less than what you think you're capable of so that you bounce back quickly from those extra sessions.

-Dave

are these the right batteries?
http://www.amazon.com/Energizer-Photo-Size-1-5V-Count/dp/B00004YK0S

THanks. Going to order them soon.