Target time for 400m free

"Liz D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi All

Next year my masters club is hosting our masters nationals and so I
have decided to set myself a goal time for the 400m at that event. My
current PB is 6:38 and I would really like to swim under 6:30 which I
think should be achieveable for me.

I would need to average 1:37.5 per 100m for the distance to achieve
this. I can hold this pace for 100m intervals on a 1:50-2:00 interval
reasonably easily. My 100m PB is 1:25.

What I find when I swim a 400m is that the first 100m is always the
fastest, even though I am not consciously trying to "go out hard", in
fact often quite the opposite. Then the 2nd 100m is almost always the
slowest, followed by the 3rd & 4th. Last night at training we did a
timed 400m at the end of the session (having progressively swum
100m/200m/300m trying to hold a constant pace), I was trying to hold
1:40/100m and my splits were (roughly):
1:38, 3:25, 5:05, 6:43

So I am looking for ideas of how to improve my pacing, especially on
the 2nd 100m. I really don't know why it drops off so much. Also any
other suggestions for training sets for improving my 400m time.

The ideal way to swim any distance that has a significant contribution from
the energy system which produces lactate, is to swim at as even an energy
expenditure as possible while delaying the buildup of lactate until the end
of the race. High levels of lactate will degrade technique; hence the wish
to avoid this early in the race. The greater amount of power available from
this/these systems must be balanced against the reduction in swimming
efficiency.

All of the above must also be structured with a view to the variation in
speed due to the dive and turns, to the individual variation of available
power from each energy system, and from possible psychlogical factors
(including that the swimmer may expect some degree of improvement but is not
sure of the type or degree).

If you wish to swim a race at a certain speed greater than that which you
have previously done, in general terms your training should give you as much
experience as possible about swimming at that speed. Doing part-whole
(swimming a part of the distance at race pace, with other portions at a
lesser speed) swims is one way; as is swimming partial distances at race
pace with (short) rests; swimming descending sets which approach the desired
speed; and of course practicing the race specific situation and
psychological factors, such as swimming alone for time with an audience, who
have a reason for seeing you do well - a typical coaching strategy in this
vein is the "get-out" swim.

Masters should also be aware that the theoretical maximum speed they can
obtain will decline with age, starting at about 30. An 8 second improvement
over 400 metres is (usually) nothing to a 13-year-old - they can do it with
six weeks of growth; it may well be impossible for a wrinkly, if they have a
personal best is close to their theoretical best.

Good luck, and remember that the product is not the true goal; it is rather
the motivation for undergoing the process. Fail to understand this, and you
may as well emulate Angel Martino and Ben Johnson.

"jtaylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Liz D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi All

Next year my masters club is hosting our masters nationals and so I
have decided to set myself a goal time for the 400m at that event. My
current PB is 6:38 and I would really like to swim under 6:30 which I
think should be achieveable for me.

I would need to average 1:37.5 per 100m for the distance to achieve
this. I can hold this pace for 100m intervals on a 1:50-2:00 interval
reasonably easily. My 100m PB is 1:25.

What I find when I swim a 400m is that the first 100m is always the
fastest, even though I am not consciously trying to "go out hard", in
fact often quite the opposite. Then the 2nd 100m is almost always the
slowest, followed by the 3rd & 4th. Last night at training we did a
timed 400m at the end of the session (having progressively swum
100m/200m/300m trying to hold a constant pace), I was trying to hold
1:40/100m and my splits were (roughly):
1:38, 3:25, 5:05, 6:43

So I am looking for ideas of how to improve my pacing, especially on
the 2nd 100m. I really don't know why it drops off so much. Also any
other suggestions for training sets for improving my 400m time.

The ideal way to swim any distance that has a significant contribution

from

Quoted message said:

the energy system which produces lactate, is to swim at as even an energy
expenditure as possible while delaying the buildup of lactate until the

end

Quoted message said:

of the race. High levels of lactate will degrade technique; hence the

wish

Quoted message said:

to avoid this early in the race. The greater amount of power available

from

Quoted message said:

this/these systems must be balanced against the reduction in swimming
efficiency.

All of the above must also be structured with a view to the variation in
speed due to the dive and turns, to the individual variation of available
power from each energy system, and from possible psychlogical factors
(including that the swimmer may expect some degree of improvement but is

not

Quoted message said:

sure of the type or degree).

If you wish to swim a race at a certain speed greater than that which you
have previously done, in general terms your training should give you as

much

Quoted message said:

experience as possible about swimming at that speed. Doing part-whole
(swimming a part of the distance at race pace, with other portions at a
lesser speed) swims is one way; as is swimming partial distances at race
pace with (short) rests; swimming descending sets which approach the

desired

Quoted message said:

speed; and of course practicing the race specific situation and
psychological factors, such as swimming alone for time with an audience,

who

Quoted message said:

have a reason for seeing you do well - a typical coaching strategy in this
vein is the "get-out" swim.

Masters should also be aware that the theoretical maximum speed they can
obtain will decline with age, starting at about 30. An 8 second

improvement

Quoted message said:

over 400 metres is (usually) nothing to a 13-year-old - they can do it

with

Quoted message said:

six weeks of growth; it may well be impossible for a wrinkly, if they have

a

Quoted message said:

personal best is close to their theoretical best.

Good luck, and remember that the product is not the true goal; it is

rather

Quoted message said:

the motivation for undergoing the process. Fail to understand this, and

you

Quoted message said:

may as well emulate Angel Martino and Ben Johnson.

I agree with almost everything jtaylor says, however i would change one
small thing:

when training what jtaylor terms 'part-whole' swims (i imagine he's talking
broken swims here as an example) set your goal pace as faster than your
intended pace. also, deriving 1:37.5 seconds /100 as a pace is a little
wrongheaded...you have to take into account the dive and turns, and the fact
you'll fatigue as your progress. 1:33, 1:36:, 1:39, 1:39 might be more
realistic allowing a few seconds for misses and change (tenths and
hundreds)...thats an example of a pretty even paced swim for someone with no
back end.

it seems from your post that you don't have the training background to be
able to hold a steady or descending pace as most people would approach a
swim like this (most people, fr me, being competitive bendy teenagers). it
may behoove you to take advantage of your speed on the way out instead of
trying to come back faster or hold a pace, relying on training you'll do in
the mean tme to allow you to hold on in the last half.

make no mistake though, you will have to train harder in the mean time. to
start with, i'd suggest sets of 100's holding around 1.33 on 2:00 for
example. you should be able to do this for at least 5 100's before needing
an easy swim in between...working up to 10 100's. once you can do this,
moving upwards in distance, say 150's or 200's at your pace minus a second
or two will be much easier.

if you would like examples of sets to use, just say the word, although i'm
guessing your coach already provides these.

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I agree with almost everything jtaylor says, however i would change one
small thing:

when training what jtaylor terms 'part-whole' swims (i imagine he's

talking

Quoted message said:

broken swims here as an example) set your goal pace as faster than your
intended pace. also, deriving 1:37.5 seconds /100 as a pace is a little
wrongheaded...you have to take into account the dive and turns, and the

fact

Quoted message said:

you'll fatigue as your progress. 1:33, 1:36:, 1:39, 1:39 might be more
realistic allowing a few seconds for misses and change (tenths and
hundreds)...thats an example of a pretty even paced swim for someone with

no

Quoted message said:

back end.

it seems from your post that you don't have the training background to be
able to hold a steady or descending pace as most people would approach a
swim like this (most people, fr me, being competitive bendy teenagers). it
may behoove you to take advantage of your speed on the way out instead of
trying to come back faster or hold a pace, relying on training you'll do

in

Quoted message said:

the mean tme to allow you to hold on in the last half.

make no mistake though, you will have to train harder in the mean time. to
start with, i'd suggest sets of 100's holding around 1.33 on 2:00 for
example. you should be able to do this for at least 5 100's before needing
an easy swim in between...working up to 10 100's. once you can do this,
moving upwards in distance, say 150's or 200's at your pace minus a second
or two will be much easier.

if you would like examples of sets to use, just say the word, although i'm
guessing your coach already provides these.

i would also add to this that it would serve you best when you work on sets
to *try* and descend them. While it may not help you out on being a 'back
end' swimmer right now, or in time for this 400, getting into the habit will
help in the future. By descend, i don't mean start slow, go to your normal
pacve then get faster....i mean start at your normal pace and get faster
then faster still....its more challenging that way 🙂

jtaylor said:

Masters should also be aware that the theoretical maximum speed they

can

Quoted message said:

obtain will decline with age, starting at about 30. An 8 second

improvement

Quoted message said:

over 400 metres is (usually) nothing to a 13-year-old - they can do

it with

Quoted message said:

six weeks of growth; it may well be impossible for a wrinkly, if they

have a

Quoted message said:

personal best is close to their theoretical best.

not to change the subject, but the above is fact that has hit me hard.
I'm 38, been swimming masters since i was 29. Was a pretty good age
group and collegiate swimmer prior to that. This past year, as a
masters swimmer, i was able to train with my local college team, and I
hung in pretty good as far as training goes. Was doing approx 30k yards
a week. am also 50 lbs light than i was 6 or 7 years ago, but my 100
times have slowed significantly by close to 2 sconds. Its a very wierd
transition for me as a swimmer, since when I was younger, it was
nothing but constant improvement. Now, I guess only the inevitable
awaits. I probably need to change my events to ones I don't have a
history of competing, just to get motivated, as it's tough to put in
that much training, only to see yourself get slower than when I swam
1/2 the yardage.

diablo said:

I agree with almost everything jtaylor says, however i would change

one

Quoted message said:

small thing:

when training what jtaylor terms 'part-whole' swims (i imagine he's

talking

Quoted message said:

broken swims here as an example) set your goal pace as faster than

your

Quoted message said:

intended pace. also, deriving 1:37.5 seconds /100 as a pace is a

little

Quoted message said:

wrongheaded...you have to take into account the dive and turns, and

the fact

Quoted message said:

you'll fatigue as your progress. 1:33, 1:36:, 1:39, 1:39 might be

more

Quoted message said:

realistic allowing a few seconds for misses and change (tenths and
hundreds)...thats an example of a pretty even paced swim for someone

with no

Quoted message said:

back end.

it seems from your post that you don't have the training background

to be

Quoted message said:

able to hold a steady or descending pace as most people would

approach a

Quoted message said:

swim like this (most people, fr me, being competitive bendy

teenagers). it

Quoted message said:

may behoove you to take advantage of your speed on the way out

instead of

Quoted message said:

trying to come back faster or hold a pace, relying on training you'll

do in

Quoted message said:

the mean tme to allow you to hold on in the last half.

make no mistake though, you will have to train harder in the mean

time. to

Quoted message said:

start with, i'd suggest sets of 100's holding around 1.33 on 2:00 for
example. you should be able to do this for at least 5 100's before

needing

Quoted message said:

an easy swim in between...working up to 10 100's. once you can do

this,

Quoted message said:

moving upwards in distance, say 150's or 200's at your pace minus a

second

Quoted message said:

or two will be much easier.

if you would like examples of sets to use, just say the word,

although i'm

Quoted message said:

guessing your coach already provides these.

Thanks for the responses.

You are correct that I don't have a swimming background, I took up
swimming in my late 30s about 5 years ago and kinda got hooked. So at
the moment, I think that I can still make fitness and technique gains
in speed which will offset any age-related degradation. Then all I
have to do is hold the pace I swim at now for another 20 years and I'll
be quite competitive in my 60s ... well, we can live in hope.

I know that just dividing the time by 4 is a bit simplistic but I feel
quite sure that if I can hold that average pace then I can make the
target time. As you say, the first 100m should be faster with the
dive, and my natural tendency to be able to swim faster at the start,
so if I can then hold that pace for the rest & kick a bit at the end I
should make it ok. At my first major swim met in 2002 (the World
Masters champs) my goal was a 7:00 400m and I was working on holding
1:45 pace in training, and I swam 6:58. I think the key will be
keeping an even pace through the 2nd & 3rd 100s.

My turns are still very weak and I don't tumble as a general rule, but
I have decided the time has come that I really must work on these. So
now I'm trying to tumble more often than not (though still not quite
all the time).

I do have a lot of trouble swimming descending sets - I start the first
one nice and easy and find I have done a much faster time than I
intended which I then sruggle to hold. If only I could keep that
"first 100m" feeling going for longer.

Ah well, I have a session planned for tomorrow morning working on
holding about 1:35/100m for 5-6 reps as start.

I'll let you know how I get on.

Thanks again

Liz D