tandem drafting etiquette

You pose a question that I have wondered about myself. I captain a tandem,
and on occasion have looked in the mirror (or have been told by stoker) that
see we don't know is drafting us. How long had he/she been there, I don't
know. I do know it would have been nice to know there were there before
happening to notice them in my mirror. Once we know they are there we signal
as if on a club ride for our own safety as well as theirs.
Harry

Not one drafter has ever let me or my stoker know they were there. Without
knowing that they were there I would ride accordingly and thereby creating a
potential hazard
"Cathy Kearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My husband and I have been riding the tandem almost every
Sunday now for the last three years, and have finally got in
good enough shape that not only do our friends draft us
but it is increasingly common for strangers to hop on the
wheel, and not only on downhills anymore. So, what,
exactly, are we (or more likely, I the stoker) supposed to
be doing in regard to our fellow cyclists? My husband points
out any road hazards. But how do signal we are slowing or
stopping? And how do you signal turning without whacking
the guy on your wheel? I do wear a mirror (and yes it does
look dorky, but I'm already on a softride tandem, so what
the heck) and I do sit up, and take my hands off the handle
bars when we start to slow down. But often that leads to
me elbowing the drafter as he attempts to pass on the right.
(I swear my elbows don't extend past the end of the handle
bars, but they tend to be a bit close at that point.) Are
there signals that don't have you extending your arm that
they can see on the right or the left? And what exactly are
they? Is it okay to turn around and tell them we are going
to be turning at the next light? (These are folks that hopped
on without saying anything, so I'm not sure if they appreciate
verbal directions. Actually, I think they are hoping we haven't
noticed them there.)

I want to make clear we don't mind folks hanging on, I just
don't want to hurt them. Just last week we were hauling
on our last two miles into to coffee, in a slightly uphill stretch
my husband likes to go all out on. At the beginning we were
passed by two guys that looked like they were sprinting for
who pays for coffee, leaving their third friend in the dust.
Just as their third friend caught up to us we got in the grove
and started hauling, he grabbed our wheel. As we surged
past his friend with him on our wheel he gave them the
biggest grin, and they groaned and caught up. My husband,
who often rides this on his carbon fiber bike without me
said he hit a personal best on this stretch that day, and
they all thanked us for the pull.

When I first started tandeming I would frequent that list. My mailbox was
filling up, or
I would get a "digest" that was huge and impossible to sift through. I'm
not interested in
wheel wars or other techie discussions, so on hobbes, like on most other
newsgroups, I'm
interested in reading at most 20% of the discussion. I never figured out
how to quickly
look at just the subjects and skip what I'm not interested in. (Like I do
on this news group.)
Has the tandem hobbes group been turned into a newsgroup yet, so I can use a
newsreader?
Or is there a way to do that with the way it was set up?

Cathy

"Len Diamond" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:o0TRc.1972$Po1.1731@trndny08...

Quoted message said:

This is a good question and one that is discussed sporadically on the
tandem@hobbes list . Go to www.thetandemlink.com (a great place for all
tandem info) to see how to access this group.
Len D
"Cathy Kearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My husband and I have been riding the tandem almost every
Sunday now for the last three years, and have finally got in
good enough shape that not only do our friends draft us
but it is increasingly common for strangers to hop on the
wheel, and not only on downhills anymore. So, what,
exactly, are we (or more likely, I the stoker) supposed to
be doing in regard to our fellow cyclists? My husband points
out any road hazards. But how do signal we are slowing or
stopping? And how do you signal turning without whacking
the guy on your wheel? I do wear a mirror (and yes it does
look dorky, but I'm already on a softride tandem, so what
the heck) and I do sit up, and take my hands off the handle
bars when we start to slow down. But often that leads to
me elbowing the drafter as he attempts to pass on the right.
(I swear my elbows don't extend past the end of the handle
bars, but they tend to be a bit close at that point.) Are
there signals that don't have you extending your arm that
they can see on the right or the left? And what exactly are
they? Is it okay to turn around and tell them we are going
to be turning at the next light? (These are folks that hopped
on without saying anything, so I'm not sure if they appreciate
verbal directions. Actually, I think they are hoping we haven't
noticed them there.)

I want to make clear we don't mind folks hanging on, I just
don't want to hurt them. Just last week we were hauling
on our last two miles into to coffee, in a slightly uphill stretch
my husband likes to go all out on. At the beginning we were
passed by two guys that looked like they were sprinting for
who pays for coffee, leaving their third friend in the dust.
Just as their third friend caught up to us we got in the grove
and started hauling, he grabbed our wheel. As we surged
past his friend with him on our wheel he gave them the
biggest grin, and they groaned and caught up. My husband,
who often rides this on his carbon fiber bike without me
said he hit a personal best on this stretch that day, and
they all thanked us for the pull.

Quoted message said:

, I the stoker) supposed to
be doing in regard to our fellow cyclists?

If they do not ask if they can draft, you have absolutely no obligation to them
whatsoever. They are tailgaiters.

Quoted message said:

But how do signal we are slowing or
stopping?

I think in that case the captain would signal with the old hand down signal
(arm out straight bent 90 degrees at the elbow so the rest of the arm is
pointed straight down with the palm of the hand facing back)- which is standard
for stopping and slowing.

Quoted message said:

And how do you signal turning without whacking
the guy on your wheel?

He shouldn't be where you can whack him. If he is, it is his own fault. He
does have some responsibilities.

Quoted message said:

I do sit up, and take my hands off the handle
bars when we start to slow down. But often that leads to
me elbowing the drafter as he attempts to pass on the right.

Again that is his look out. If he is drafting, he is supposed to hold his
position behind you. If you are coasting into a light or something he can pull
up alongside but again if he does so, it is responsibility to keep clear of
you.

Cathy Kearns said:

My husband and I have been riding the tandem almost every Sunday now for
the last three years, and have finally got in good enough shape that not
only do our friends draft us but it is increasingly common for strangers
to hop on the wheel, and not only on downhills anymore. So, what,
exactly, are we (or more likely, I the stoker) supposed to be doing in
regard to our fellow cyclists? My husband points out any road hazards.
But how do signal we are slowing or stopping? And how do you signal
turning without whacking the guy on your wheel?

If somebody's drafting you that close you ought to whack them. You can
give turn signals by extending left or right arm palm facing forward,
fingers extended, thumbs up; you can signal slowing by extending left arm
/ <== like that thumb down, palm facing rear, or you can yell BRAKING!!!

I do wear a mirror (and

Quoted message said:

yes it does look dorky, but I'm already on a softride tandem, so what
the heck) and I do sit up, and take my hands off the handle bars when we
start to slow down. But often that leads to me elbowing the drafter as
he attempts to pass on the right. (I swear my elbows don't extend past
the end of the handle bars, but they tend to be a bit close at that
point.) Are there signals that don't have you extending your arm that
they can see on the right or the left? And what exactly are they?

You could also try asking loudly "Please get the %$*@ off my wheel!"

Is

Quoted message said:

it okay to turn around and tell them we are going to be turning at the
next light? (These are folks that hopped on without saying anything,

so

That is very not OK, and you can demonstrate it to them if you like, just
by braking hard. Don't worry - if they hit you, they, not you, are going
down.

When a tandem captain sees something untoward up front that requires
braking, they will often brake very hard, since tandems have tremendous
momentum and no captain wants to end up like that train in the movie
Silver Streak. Because the stoker is on the back holding it down, a
tandem can brake very much harder than a single without risking rear wheel
lift. I don't let anybody draft me when I'm riding tandem who doesn't
understand that.

Quoted message said:

[email hidden]

wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

If they do not ask if they can draft, you have absolutely no obligation to
them
whatsoever. They are tailgaiters.

Most of the tandems I encounter are being ridden slower than I go solo (I think
it is a tandem sociability thing. They seem to like to talk more than they like
to hammer.) so I don't often draft them but this statement raises an
interesting question. How does one ask permission to draft a tandem? Before
I'll draft a solo biker I'll pull up and ask them if they mind if I do and at
the same time offer to take my turn pulling. Who do you ask on a tandem and
what if the answer isn't unanimous? <g>

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Hunrobe said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden]

wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

If they do not ask if they can draft, you have absolutely no obligation to
them
whatsoever. They are tailgaiters.

Most of the tandems I encounter are being ridden slower than I go solo (I think
it is a tandem sociability thing. They seem to like to talk more than they like
to hammer.) so I don't often draft them but this statement raises an
interesting question. How does one ask permission to draft a tandem? Before
I'll draft a solo biker I'll pull up and ask them if they mind if I do and at
the same time offer to take my turn pulling. Who do you ask on a tandem and
what if the answer isn't unanimous? <g>

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Just ask!

My wife and I really enjoy riding in a group and appreciate a good pull
as much as a half bike would. I think the most frustrating thing for a
tandem is that everyone always wants to be on our wheel on downhills and
flats because of the huge draft we throw. Then when we hit an uphill
where we are slower, and yes tandems are very often slower uphill
regardless of the fact we have four legs, the group pays no attention to
the fact that we are going off the back and getting dropped. assuming
after a signifigant effort by us we can get back into the group this
process is repeated throughout the ride. This tends to get a little
frustrating. Slow a little and help the tandem up the hill by letting
them draft you.

Also keep in mind that a tandem will most probably be carrying around
300-400 pounds and does not stop or handle as quick as a half bike, give
a little extra room. Often when we ride in groups inexperienced rider
will pin us against the edge of the road or ride far too close which
really limits my choices of what to do if I have to emergency stop. I
can either run them over, plow into the rider ahead of us (remember we
have a longer stopping distance), or take it off the road, none of which
is a very attractive option. If we are not pinned against the side of
the road or have a little extra room I would have the option of veering
farther out into the road or going around the trouble.

I have seen a tandem crash into other bikers, its not pretty. Just
remember that there is a lot of momentum and weight behind that bike and
if someone does something stupid you are all more likely than not going
to pay for it!

Take Care
Chris

(Hunrobe) said:

Most of the tandems I encounter are being ridden slower than I go solo (I think
it is a tandem sociability thing. They seem to like to talk more than they like
to hammer.)

Careful though - us tandemites like it when people think that. In
reality, they're VERY fast if the riders are putting in a decent
effort. My wife and I used to blow by all the half-bike riders on A1A
in Florida, and only the fastest of them could even hang onto our rear
wheel.

Another "truth" about tandems is that they don't climb well, so we'd
almost always get jumped by the rider behind us on the one (small but
surprisingly steep) hill on A1A - since the "summit" was a popular
stopping point. We'd normally cruise up to the hill at about 24, then
stand and accelerate to about 28-30 when they tried to pass. They
never made it for some reason... ;-)

So yeah, there ARE some twofers out there that are moving above
"social speed"... ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Cathy Kearns said:

I want to make clear we don't mind folks hanging on, I just don't want to
hurt them.

Do what I do when they don't ask permission: fart.

LOL

I was cruising up towards 30 mph and did that the other day, not knowing
that a guy was sucking my wheel, I heard a faint "Oh God!" after sitting
back down and that clued me in.

😄

"Hunrobe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden]

wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

If they do not ask if they can draft, you have absolutely no obligation

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

them
whatsoever. They are tailgaiters.

Most of the tandems I encounter are being ridden slower than I go solo (I

think

Quoted message said:

it is a tandem sociability thing. They seem to like to talk more than they

like

Quoted message said:

to hammer.) so I don't often draft them but this statement raises an
interesting question. How does one ask permission to draft a tandem?

Before

Quoted message said:

I'll draft a solo biker I'll pull up and ask them if they mind if I do and

at

Quoted message said:

the same time offer to take my turn pulling. Who do you ask on a tandem

and

Quoted message said:

what if the answer isn't unanimous? <g>

The reason I'm asking now is we are going faster than many of the solo
riders, and they would like to take advantage. And occasionally we
pick up a velo club rider whose probably done with the club portion,
heading for home, and wouldn't mind a few easy miles. I don't mind
if they draft, I don't mind if they don't ask. (Seriously, some have
expended all the energy they had just to catch the wheel, and I
notice they are there from the heavy breathing. Okay, they don't
hold on long, but I can understand why they didn't ask.) But if you
want to ask, go ahead and ask the stoker. With most tandem teams
I know, it's her (or his) call. The captain's happy if the stoker is
comfortable.

Mark, that's pretty bad advice! You are basically suggesting that
folks commit assault.
Let's separate out boorish behavioue from illegal and dangerous
responses to same.

I've drafted lots of tandems (and recumbants) and never had or caused
a problem. I've been sucking faster wheels for over 40 years in races
and on recreation rides without a problem.

However there are several caveats. Both the drafter and draftee have
to be aware of what is happening and have some bike handling skills.
Proper drafting position is very close to the rear wheel of the bike
ahead. But the bike ahead should be made aware of your presence. The
drafter is responsible for their own safety and if they do not like
the way the front bike rides- they shouldn't draft. This happens all
of the time. There are lots of wheels I won't follow!

But still, if you are being drafted and you don't like it there are
myriad ways to end the relationship short of violence or behavior that
can get someone hurt.

Quoted message said:

Apologies to Mark--my comments were for Steve.

(gds) said:

Mark, that's pretty bad advice! You are basically suggesting that
folks commit assault.

You must live in a state where sneezing at someone constitutes
assualt. Doing an impromptu jump on a bike to see who's faster is
"assault"???!!! Guess most of us are guilty of it then...

Mark "Cell Block #3" Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

(gds) said:

Quoted message said:

Apologies to Mark--my comments were for Steve.

Heh... OK now it makes sense (as we all breathe a sigh of relief...).
;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Mark Hickey said:

(gds) said:

Mark, that's pretty bad advice! You are basically suggesting that
folks commit assault.

You must live in a state where sneezing at someone constitutes
assualt. Doing an impromptu jump on a bike to see who's faster is
"assault"???!!! Guess most of us are guilty of it then...

I went back to your post (the one gds replied to) and read it 3-4 times
trying to figure out what he was talking about. I finally gave up and
decided he must have confused another post with yours. I couldn't find
anything that would even hint at "assault."

Austin
--
I'm pedaling as fast as I durn well please!
There are no X characters in my address

maxo said:

Cathy Kearns said:

I want to make clear we don't mind folks hanging on, I just don't want to
hurt them.

Do what I do when they don't ask permission: fart.

LOL

I was cruising up towards 30 mph and did that the other day, not knowing
that a guy was sucking my wheel, I heard a faint "Oh God!" after sitting
back down and that clued me in.

Err, um. Well I've never broke wind on a tailgater. I have hit a couple
of them with spittle because I didn't know they were back there. Though
I have to admit not feeling at all guilty about that. [1]

[1] Maybe I will go back and pick up the Guilt issue from the magazine
rack...

--
Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
"All the cool [censored]'s on the bottom you twit!"
-Gnat's 1st law of Archaeology

Quoted message said:

Mark Hickey [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Careful though - us tandemites like it when people think that. In
reality, they're VERY fast if the riders are putting in a decent
effort. My wife and I used to blow by all the half-bike riders on A1A
in Florida, and only the fastest of them could even hang onto our rear
wheel.

Another "truth" about tandems is that they don't climb well, so we'd
almost always get jumped by the rider behind us on the one (small but
surprisingly steep) hill on A1A - since the "summit" was a popular
stopping point. We'd normally cruise up to the hill at about 24, then
stand and accelerate to about 28-30 when they tried to pass. They
never made it for some reason... ;-)

So yeah, there ARE some twofers out there that are moving above
"social speed"... ;-)

To be sure, I've run across some very fast tandem pairs. Heck, some of them I
wouldn't even bother to chase if I wasn't so darned competitive. :-)

Regards,
Bob Hunt

P.S.- I've only got about 75 or so miles on that new Record carbon crankset to
date. I stayed with the 9 spd chain and so far have had no problems at all with
the 9/10 spd component combination. It has made me faster too. At least that's
what I told my wife when she asked if it was worth the money. ;-)

"Cathy Kearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
So, what,

Quoted message said:

exactly, are we (or more likely, I the stoker) supposed to
be doing in regard to our fellow cyclists?

The biggest problem is when you don't know they are behind you. Why
not hang a small sign on the back of your seat that says something
like:

"Please ask permission before drafting"

This could be on a small card hanging from the seat back or rack if
you have one.

"MortDubois" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

"Cathy Kearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... So, what,

Quoted message said:

exactly, are we (or more likely, I the stoker) supposed to
be doing in regard to our fellow cyclists?

The biggest problem is when you don't know they are behind you. Why
not hang a small sign on the back of your seat that says something
like:

"Please ask permission before drafting"

This could be on a small card hanging from the seat back or rack if
you have one.

T-shirt.

--

A: Top-posters.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

"DRS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"MortDubois" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

"Please ask permission before drafting"

This could be on a small card hanging from the seat back or rack if
you have one.

T-shirt.

I gotta admit, if I ran up against a rider wearing a T-shirt with a custom
message on it, or a bike with a sign on it, it wouldn't matter what they
said, I wouldn't be looking to draft them anyway.

Tested today sitting up and putting both hands straight down in the
stopping motion and checking my mirror. Once they back off I
go to the more comfortable arms akimbo mode. Worked like a
charm.