Tandem climbing speed?

My stoker and I "become one with the hill." We climbed the same way on our Santana.

Tim Storey

2001 Vision R64 2002 RANS Screamer

"Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just dreaming, scheming, etc. about a two-wheeled tandem for me and my wife (currently ride a
GTT), and I was wondering what kind of climbing speeds people are experiencing on their
tandems--Screamers, DV's, etc. I know this question is highly motor-dependent, but for riders in
pretty good shape (though not racers), I was wondering what we might expect for long grades in the
5--6% range, which are pretty common here in the western US. Currently on the trike tandem we find
ourselves frequently in the "4mph gear" as we call it. Since trikes are inherently slower than
two-wheelers in this regard (climbing), if we could maintain 6 mph over similar terrain, that
would be a huge boost. This would translate into something like 30 min. less climbing time on some
of our bigger grades. Just wonderin'. What say you?

Regards, Scott GTT Halu-Wahoo!-zak

When I had my O.E. Troika,I noticed it was much slower uphill than the screamer I had. Of course it
weighted about 15 or 20lbs. more and there's that 3rd wheel ,resistance.

The trike, OTOH allows you to climb at a slow pace without worrying about falling over because
you're going to slow to maintain your balance.

As 2 wheel tandems go I think the lightest and fastest is the Columbia by Barcroft. Mike stern has
one and he and his wife are very fast on it,they tried a Screamer and say it's slower.

You can sell me the G.S. at a ridiculous low price so I can afford it and buy a Columbia.

The only drawback I can see to the Columbia is if you need to carry a lot of gear there doesn't seem
to be too many places to hang anything. Ben fox "Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just dreaming, scheming, etc. about a two-wheeled tandem for me and my wife (currently ride a
GTT), and I was wondering what kind of climbing speeds people are experiencing on their
tandems--Screamers, DV's, etc. I know this question is highly motor-dependent, but for riders in
pretty good shape (though not racers), I was wondering what we might expect for long grades in the
5--6% range, which are pretty common here in the western US. Currently on the trike tandem we find
ourselves frequently in the "4mph gear" as we call it. Since trikes are inherently slower than
two-wheelers in this regard (climbing), if we could maintain 6 mph over similar terrain, that
would be a huge boost. This would translate into something like 30 min. less climbing time on some
of our bigger grades. Just wonderin'. What say you?

Regards, Scott GTT Halu-Wahoo!-zak

[email hidden] (Scott) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Just dreaming, scheming, etc. about a two-wheeled tandem for me and my wife (currently ride a
GTT), and I was wondering what kind of climbing speeds people are experiencing on their
tandems--Screamers, DV's, etc. I know this question is highly motor-dependent, but for riders in
pretty good shape (though not racers), I was wondering what we might expect for long grades in the
5--6% range, which are pretty common here in the western US. Currently on the trike tandem we find
ourselves frequently in the "4mph gear" as we call it. Since trikes are inherently slower than
two-wheelers in this regard (climbing), if we could maintain 6 mph over similar terrain, that
would be a huge boost. This would translate into something like 30 min. less climbing time on some
of our bigger grades. Just wonderin'. What say you?

Regards, Scott GTT Halu-Wahoo!-zak

Scott: We have a Barcroft Columbia tandem so our bike weighs a lot less than your Greenspeed and at
least 10 pounds less than the Screamer and the DV (actual weight, not posted weight). Our experience
(generally, not specifically) is that we are much faster than the Greenspeed overall, pass most of
the Screamers at the tandem rallies, and do well against the Visions. That might be more a testament
to comparative engines and the riding philosophy of the riders (who can ever tell) but I also think
it may be the bikes. But, having said that, on a 5 - 6 % long grade we try to stay at 5 mph or
above. The above is more of a wish than a reality. For stretches we may push it into the 6 mph range
but we usually settle back into the 5's. Its all about keeping the reps up but when we are pushing
that kind of weight uphill we are way down in the granny gear so our task becomes not how fast we
can do the hill but to keep pushing so we do do the hill. As you know, tandems are not gazelles on
long grades. One advantage you have is that even if you fall below 5 mph you can keep on motoring.
The slower the two wheelers go the more effort you need to stay the course as their handling becomes
more squirrelly.

Ive been training for the Cross Florida ride on a RANS Screamer for the last three months.We found
it necessary to include climbing in our training because the one-day 170 mile Cross Florida ride
includes about 40 miles of hills. My riding partner is an experieced and fairly strong cyclist and
I'd say that thanks to hard training, Im a bit better than the average bear in the speed dept -
especially after losing about 20 pounds of lard. In so doing we've found that climbing on the RANS
Screamer has proven to be a sloooooow experience. Though we don't have any good hills in South
Florida, we've been using one of the steepest and longest bridge in the area to train (The Biscayne
Key Bridge is the closest thing to a real hill around here). Anyway, our best speeds have been only
6 to 9 MPH!. If I were riding a Wishbone RT on the same bridge, my speed would be closer to 16-17
MPH with about the same effort. On my Tailwind, my climb speed is about 14 mph on the same bridge.
So, in light of the fact that we've been training pretty hard for the last few months and have been
cycling for years (thus we have a pretty good base), I would have to say that climbing is not the
RANS Screamer's best attribute. Im not sure as to the main reason for this but I suspect that
weight is a big factor here as is the stoker's low BB. I find it hard to generate power on a climb
with a low BB.

Having said that, the Screamer is a very stable & comfortable cruiser and - as long as you're not in
a hurry to climb a certain hill, - you'll have a blast on the way down and on the flats.

Jose Jose A. Hernandez Recumbent Cycling Means NEVER Having to Say Your'e Sore!
bentrideronline.combentrideronline.comOpen ↗ getbent.orggetbent.orgOpen ↗
groups.yahoo.comSouthFloridaRecumbentRidersOpen ↗

"Ben Fox" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

When I had my O.E. Troika,I noticed it was much slower uphill than the screamer I had. Of course
it weighted about 15 or 20lbs. more and there's that 3rd wheel ,resistance.

The trike, OTOH allows you to climb at a slow pace without worrying about falling over because
you're going to slow to maintain your balance.

As 2 wheel tandems go I think the lightest and fastest is the Columbia by Barcroft. Mike stern has
one and he and his wife are very fast on it,they tried a Screamer and say it's slower.

You can sell me the G.S. at a ridiculous low price so I can afford it and buy a Columbia.

The only drawback I can see to the Columbia is if you need to carry a lot of gear there doesn't
seem to be too many places to hang anything. Ben fox

Hi, Ben: So you're no longer riding the Troika? Those seem like fine machines. As far as low-speed
climbing, I'm pretty comfortable on my Haluzak going as slow as 3.5mph or so. What's slow speed
handling like on a two-wheeled tandem? OTOH, if I never have to go that slow, all the better! I've
looked at the Columbia, but I'm not really excited by the dual 20's though I wouldn't rule it out.
It seems well made and very portable.

Regards, Scott

Not to change the subject ,but Jose mentioned that on low BB bikes he can't generate power on
climbs. I see Tour Easy riders climbing hills without any problem, some as fast as my P-38. I wonder
if it's a case of power generation or just building the proper muscles group for the the bb height .
I guess I will find out since I now also have a Stratus to go with my P-38. Ben fox "Jose A.
Hernandez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ive been training for the Cross Florida ride on a RANS Screamer for the

last

Quoted message said:

three months.We found it necessary to include climbing in our training

because

Quoted message said:

the one-day 170 mile Cross Florida ride includes about 40 miles of hills.

My

Quoted message said:

riding partner is an experieced and fairly strong cyclist and I'd say that thanks to hard
training, Im a bit better than the average bear in the

speed

Quoted message said:

dept - especially after losing about 20 pounds of lard. In so doing we've found that climbing on
the RANS Screamer has proven to be a sloooooow experience. Though we don't have any good hills in
South Florida, we've

been

Quoted message said:

using one of the steepest and longest bridge in the area to train (The

Biscayne

Quoted message said:

Key Bridge is the closest thing to a real hill around here). Anyway, our

best

Quoted message said:

speeds have been only 6 to 9 MPH!. If I were riding a Wishbone RT on the

same

Quoted message said:

bridge, my speed would be closer to 16-17 MPH with about the same effort.

On my

Quoted message said:

Tailwind, my climb speed is about 14 mph on the same bridge. So, in light

of

Quoted message said:

the fact that we've been training pretty hard for the last few months and

have

Quoted message said:

been cycling for years (thus we have a pretty good base), I would have to

say

Quoted message said:

that climbing is not the RANS Screamer's best attribute. Im not sure as

to the

Quoted message said:

main reason for this but I suspect that weight is a big factor here as is

the

Quoted message said:

stoker's low BB. I find it hard to generate power on a climb with a low

BB.

Quoted message said:

Having said that, the Screamer is a very stable & comfortable cruiser

and - as

Quoted message said:

long as you're not in a hurry to climb a certain hill, - you'll have a

blast on

Quoted message said:

the way down and on the flats.

Jose Jose A. Hernandez Recumbent Cycling Means NEVER Having to Say Your'e Sore!
bentrideronline.combentrideronline.comOpen ↗ getbent.orggetbent.orgOpen ↗
groups.yahoo.comSouthFloridaRecumbentRidersOpen ↗

While I have a couple thousand DF tandem miles under my cleats, I have less than 5 on a bent. We
discovered that we would wobble wildly if our pedals were in sync. on the steeper grades we would
have to get off and walk. I changed the pedals to 90 degrees OOP and the wobbling was nearly
eliminated and we have not had to walk since. I have no idea, but I would guess the bents would
respond the same way, I will know in about a month.

In addition to being out of phase with each other, we found team work was critical to hill
perforance, and practice. Like many people, our preferred cadence was different. When I got used to
slower, and she got used to faster, (we settled into the high 70's) our speed and power improved
everywhere.

The last thing that helped us was the captain developing some good technique for shifting and
planning ahead for it. Specifically to power to the base of a hill getting all the momentum
possible, then trying to maintain cadence/speed all the way up, then descending the other side, go
for all the speed you can get again and repeat the process. I am finding I climb best with any bike
doing this, so I suspect it would be well known to users of this board, yet I pass countless people
trying to catch their breath before a hill, attacking it at low speed/low gear and grinding up, so
there are plenty who don't know. Obviously, at some point on a long enough/steep enough hill you end
up in granny grinding at 4.5 mph, but you don't necessarily have to start that off way.

mike

MB: How does your stoker find the ride on the Columbia? (Damn, that's got a sad, ironic ring to it
these days...) I'm 6'4" and my wife is 5'3" (yeah, we make a goofy pair :>😉. Would this bike be
too cramped for us? I read on Barcroft's website that these are made in Santa Rosa, CA, where
we used to live. Wonder if Delaire has any on hand for test rides....

Regards, Scott

Quoted message said:

Scott: We have a Barcroft Columbia tandem so our bike weighs a lot less than your Greenspeed and
at least 10 pounds less than the Screamer and the DV (actual weight, not posted weight). Our
experience (generally, not specifically) is that we are much faster than the Greenspeed overall,
pass most of the Screamers at the tandem rallies, and do well against the Visions. That might be
more a testament to comparative engines and the riding philosophy of the riders (who can ever
tell) but I also think it may be the bikes. But, having said that, on a 5 - 6 % long grade we try
to stay at 5 mph or above. The above is more of a wish than a reality. For stretches we may push
it into the 6 mph range but we usually settle back into the 5's. Its all about keeping the reps up
but when we are pushing that kind of weight uphill we are way down in the granny gear so our task
becomes not how fast we can do the hill but to keep pushing so we do do the hill. As you know,
tandems are not gazelles on long grades. One advantage you have is that even if you fall below 5
mph you can keep on motoring. The slower the two wheelers go the more effort you need to stay the
course as their handling becomes more squirrelly.

Do you have problems starting out with your pedals out of synch?
--
Bill "Pop Pop" Patterson Retired and riding my Linear, my front drive low racer and our M5 tandem.

Mike: As per Greenspeed's instructions, we have our pedals at 90 OOP, too. One the couple of
occasions when I've re-coupled the trike after transport and forgotten to set up the cranks in this
manner, I can immediately feel pulsing/wobbling through the frame. Put the cranks in 90 OOP, and the
wobble goes away. It seems, however, that experienced tandem teams often do not have this problem,
that they have developed smooth strokes. Because we have a 3X8 hub, we can't really experiment
w/pedals in phase. Putting them 90 OOP reduces stress on the hub, to less than single bike levels
(according to Greenspeed); without this reduction, we could easily blow the hub.

Scott

[email hidden] (me) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

While I have a couple thousand DF tandem miles under my cleats, I have less than 5 on a bent. We
discovered that we would wobble wildly if our pedals were in sync. on the steeper grades we would
have to get off and walk. I changed the pedals to 90 degrees OOP and the wobbling was nearly
eliminated and we have not had to walk since. I have no idea, but I would guess the bents would
respond the same way, I will know in about a month.

In addition to being out of phase with each other, we found team work was critical to hill
perforance, and practice. Like many people, our preferred cadence was different. When I got used
to slower, and she got used to faster, (we settled into the high 70's) our speed and power
improved everywhere.

The last thing that helped us was the captain developing some good technique for shifting and
planning ahead for it. Specifically to power to the base of a hill getting all the momentum
possible, then trying to maintain cadence/speed all the way up, then descending the other side,
go for all the speed you can get again and repeat the process. I am finding I climb best with any
bike doing this, so I suspect it would be well known to users of this board, yet I pass countless
people trying to catch their breath before a hill, attacking it at low speed/low gear and
grinding up, so there are plenty who don't know. Obviously, at some point on a long enough/steep
enough hill you end up in granny grinding at 4.5 mph, but you don't necessarily have to start
that off way.

mike

Bill Patterson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Do you have problems starting out with your pedals out of synch?

No,

I use the technique that requires the stoker to stay clipped in untill the bike is stopped and the
captain gives permission to get off. The captain is soley responsible for keeping the bike upright
and for starting and stopping. I've only had one stoker who objected to that, and he is a problem on
a solo bike as well 🙂

I think the guy who makes the Santana tandems, Bill McR*** has that written up on his company's
tandem information site. It works well for us.

Mike

[email hidden] (me) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

While I have a couple thousand DF tandem miles under my cleats, I have less than 5 on a bent. We
discovered that we would wobble wildly if our pedals were in sync. on the steeper grades we would
have to get off and walk. I changed the pedals to 90 degrees OOP and the wobbling was nearly
eliminated and we have not had to walk since. I have no idea, but I would guess the bents would
respond the same way, I will know in about a month.

In addition to being out of phase with each other, we found team work was critical to hill
perforance, and practice. Like many people, our preferred cadence was different. When I got used
to slower, and she got used to faster, (we settled into the high 70's) our speed and power
improved everywhere.

The last thing that helped us was the captain developing some good technique for shifting and
planning ahead for it. Specifically to power to the base of a hill getting all the momentum
possible, then trying to maintain cadence/speed all the way up, then descending the other side,
go for all the speed you can get again and repeat the process. I am finding I climb best with any
bike doing this, so I suspect it would be well known to users of this board, yet I pass countless
people trying to catch their breath before a hill, attacking it at low speed/low gear and
grinding up, so there are plenty who don't know. Obviously, at some point on a long enough/steep
enough hill you end up in granny grinding at 4.5 mph, but you don't necessarily have to start
that off way.

mike

My wife ans I have 15 yrs. on DF tandems and 1 season on our new Rans Screamer. We climb much better
on the Screamer. The gearing is about the same. Low gear that is, Our top end is lower so we are a
bit slower. We spin out around 30 MPH as apposed to 35 MPH on DF. Which is fine with us as we are
getting older. But we do Scream on the down hills,55+. The Rans is very stable as speed and the
White Bro. Shock keeps the wheel on the road. Von, V-REX, Rans Screamer,and my beloved Pinarello.

Having been involved with the BikeE2, I got several questions about its handling.

1. Its tendency to turn on a slope. That problem was more a question of the fat front tire and the
very narrow handlebars

2. Pedal steer. Some people are nervous about small control forces. Again it is worsened by the
narrow handlebars and lack of tiller.

3. Frame flex. I only felt this at high speed with a strong stoker. It may be solved by putting the
pedals out of synch/phase. I know that it makes my df tandem much smoother. I didn't test this
because of fears that it would make starting much harder on a recumbent tandem.
--
Bill "Pop Pop" Patterson Retired and riding my Linear, my front drive low racer and our M5 tandem.

Bill Patterson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Do you have problems starting out with your pedals out of synch?

I think it's easier. Oddly, we did just fine on out upright with the cranks 90 degrees out, but this
feels a bit jerky on the 'bent. After much trial and error, her cranks now follow mine by 45 degrees
(adjusted for our dissimillar riding positions). Smooth as butter.

"Ben Fox" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:v433oqp6v8mm84 @corp.supernews.com:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden]

Ben, would you share your opinion of the troika with me? I tried emailing you without success.
Thanks [email hidden]

(mike s) said:

Scott: We have a Barcroft Columbia tandem

Mike, Do you have the Avid disk brakes on yours?

If so I have some questions, as I'm planning to use them on my next tandem.

Are they the big, 203mm, disks? If so, are they "Grabby" with a 20" wheel?

I've read that if you get a drop of oil, or a greasy fingerprint, on them you have to replace the
pads. Sounds ridiculous, is it true.

What are you getting for pad life?

Any complaints?