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this is a No-BRAINer, the Mtb has run its design course and in the past 2 years Mtb sales have
bottomed out in North America. Consumers have realized they can get a Mtb from Wal-Mart that is as
good or sometimes better than the hi-priced C'dale or TREK, Kona etc. RockShox died being incapable
of lowering their prices to get market share back from the really low cost Asian clone shocks. The
whole industry needs an enema and the Semi-Bents are a test to see if bents will be the next big
thing in bicycles to pick up from the Mtb. The JIT idea is fine, but you still have a huge over
supply problem and bike prices are still going lower. The only solution is to restrict supply and
limit supply of models in their class....and that won't happen now that Communist China and India
are churning out bikes that a few years ago only Taiwan made.

Bents and E-Bikes are the only way left to go IF companies want to keep their profit margins at the
pre-2000 levels.

I see a parellel between what happened in the PC Industry and the DF Industry, in both cases supply
far exceeded need to the point prices crashed. Quality had to get better to set one PC apart from
the others and they all got better...then the prices fell again. DFs are going the same way, the
companies are rushing to add more features and quality hoping that will get more bikes sold and
because they are ALL doing it...better bikes but the prices keep falling.

As gasoline prices rise and remain high, E-Bikes will takeoff and once U try them, you won't go back
to pedal only bikes (if or when) gas prices fall. China has 100s of E-Bike companies all ready to
flood the U.S. market with low cost bikes. IT is our future and E-Bents will be a close second,,,but
the E-Bents won't be the newest flavor till AFTER a few hundred thousand E-Bikes are in daily use.
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"John Riley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Complaints about lack of innovation from the company that is afraid to do recumbents:

bicycleretailer.comarticle display.jspOpen ↗ ?vnu_content_id=1852559

Joshua Goldberg said:

this is a No-BRAINer, the Mtb has run its design course and in the past 2 years Mtb sales have
bottomed out in North America. Consumers have realized they can get a Mtb from Wal-Mart that is as
good or sometimes better than the hi-priced C'dale or TREK, Kona etc....

I have yet to see a discount store bike that has anywhere near the quality of components or frame
construction as those from manufacturers such as Cannondale or Trek.

The only solution is to restrict supply and

Quoted message said:

limit supply of models in their class....and that won't happen now that Communist China and India
are churning out bikes that a few years ago only Taiwan made....

A solution would be import tariffs based on wages, worker protection laws, and environmental
standards in the country of origin.

Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

this is a No-BRAINer, the Mtb has run its design course and in the past 2 years Mtb sales have
bottomed out in North America. Consumers have realized they can get a Mtb from Wal-Mart that is as
good or sometimes better than the hi-priced C'dale or TREK, Kona etc.

Hmm, you must have a very different Wal-Mart from the one where I shop. While the bikes are getting
better, they're are still closer to junk than to Cannondale or Trek, etc.

">

Quoted message said:

Hmm, you must have a very different Wal-Mart from the one where I shop. While the bikes are
getting better, they're are still closer to junk than to Cannondale or Trek, etc.

Yes but try to convince your typical unwashed public of that. If it has 2 round wheels a shock or
two and perhaps a fancy seat and costs 100 bucks. How do you justify paying $500 for a Cannondale or
Trek? It's the old Beta VHS story again. Beta was technically superior, but cost a few dollars more.
VHS was not quite as good, but acceptable and cost a little less. When was the last time you saw a
BETA machine? The general public doesn't really care that much about quality, they just want
something that does the job, at a good price. Bicycles are a commodity item now, soon they will be
sold by the pound. Denny in Sayre, Pa "Bent but not broken" www.recumbentstuff.com

The analogy with the PC business is apt. In the early days we had a whole zoo of competing PC
designs - Apple, Radio Shack, TI, Commodore, Amiga - you all remember, don't you? Especially frrom a
software perspective, this made everything unnecessarily expensive. Eventually the IBM platform
dominated the ecosystem and from that point on, PCs did indeed become a commodity. Today, not only
are they all functionally alike, they're all better than they need to be. And a furious
cost-reduction competition is killing off manufacturers one by one.

I guess a product becomes a commodity when the design issues have been settled, and there are
no more secrets in its manufacture, no special knowledge or tooling that a new player can't
get ahold of.

But 'bents aren't going to become a commodity until one design dominates the market, and that
doesn't seem likely to happen any time soon. The 'bent market today reminds me of the PC 'zoo' of
the 80s. I hope it stays that way forever!

Denny Voorhees said:

">

Quoted message said:

Hmm, you must have a very different Wal-Mart from the one where I shop. While the bikes are
getting better, they're are still closer to junk than to Cannondale or Trek, etc.

Yes but try to convince your typical unwashed public of that. If it has 2 round wheels a shock or
two and perhaps a fancy seat and costs 100 bucks. How do you justify paying $500 for a Cannondale
or Trek?

[...]

All the more so, now that some of those department store bikes say "Schwinn". I see they now have
Schwinns at Canadian Tire.

John Riley

But first, he said, suppliers must move their manufacturing operations to a just-in-time process.
That requires the industry to improve its planning, tooling and a more refined system for new
product development.

Efficient, just-in-time manufacturing on the part of suppliers, partnered with early trend spotting
and reporting by specialty retailers, will improve sales, increase market share and profitability
for the industry, he said

Of Lo's comments this is IMO most important to the retailer. My largest selling bike is a
bike that for the last three years they have sold thru by March. I'm almost out of
them...again. Its a bike not sold by the mass marketers...(not a recumbent) I have watched
numerous manufacturers "shoot themselves in the foot" in the last 25 years.

Jude....///Bacchetta AERO St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports,
Inc 1-800-586-6645 "John Riley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Complaints about lack of innovation from the company that is afraid to do recumbents:

bicycleretailer.comarticle display.jspOpen ↗ ?vnu_content_id=1852559

Quoted message said:

I have yet to see a discount store bike that has anywhere near the quality of components or frame
construction as those from manufacturers such as Cannondale or Trek.

Let's not allow this thread to degrade into a "department store bikes are junk" discussion. While
discount store bikes are "generally not as good", they are getting better and better. Frames are
made in the same factories in Taiwan or China as the Treks and other makes and are of acceptable
quality. Bikes from stores such as The Sports Authority now sport component names that were found
only in LBS bought bikes. "Rock Shox", "Ritchie", "Acera/Alivio/Deore", "SRAM 3.0/5.0", etc. My
belief is to buy from the specialize bike dealers but then again, for many people, the "x" Mart
special is just fine for the intended use.

Now back to our main topic.

Edward Wong Orlando, FL

R.White said:

"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

this is a No-BRAINer, the Mtb has run its design course and in the past 2 years Mtb sales have
bottomed out in North America. Consumers have realized they can get a Mtb from Wal-Mart that is
as good or sometimes better than the hi-priced C'dale or TREK, Kona etc.

Hmm, you must have a very different Wal-Mart from the one where I shop. While the bikes are
getting better, they're are still closer to junk than to Cannondale or Trek, etc.

I bought a Royce Union ATB at Fred Meyer for 180.00. It's a great street bike. Large-diameter
aluminum frame and way-sufficient components. It's got the best brakes I've ever used on a bicycle.
Bikes in the same line-up have gotten cheaper and better since I bought this one.

You pay a very dear premium for a functionally small increment in usability when you go from a
180.00 mass-market ATB to a 600.00 Cannondale. You're paying for something which is just too subtle
for most people to appreciate.

The situation is analogous to road groups. A long time ago I had to have Campagnolo Record, Super
Record, Dura-Ace--all that stuff. Then one day I woke up and realized that, from the standpoint of
MY performance, all this stuff was just JEWELRY. After that, I went for a good frame and cheaper, no
less sufficent, components.

mc
--
Replace "[censored]" with "warnerm" in my email addr

Quoted message said:

I bought a Royce Union ATB at Fred Meyer for 180.00. It's a great street bike. Large-diameter
aluminum frame and way-sufficient components. It's got the best brakes I've ever used on a
bicycle. Bikes in the same line-up have gotten cheaper and better since I bought this one.

You pay a very dear premium for a functionally small increment in usability when you go from a
180.00 mass-market ATB to a 600.00 Cannondale. You're paying for something which is just too
subtle for most people to appreciate.

The situation is analogous to road groups. A long time ago I had to have Campagnolo Record, Super
Record, Dura-Ace--all that stuff. Then one day I woke up and realized that, from the standpoint of
MY performance, all this stuff was just JEWELRY. After that, I went for a good frame and cheaper,
no less sufficent, components.

mc

Agreed on all points. My Lightning T-Bolt's component list reads like they came off a $109.00
WalMart MTB but yet they've remained very reliable even after 7500 miles. Even the chain is still
the original one. No complaints here:-)

Edward Wong Orlando, FL

Mike Warner said:

... I bought a Royce Union ATB at Fred Meyer for 180.00. It's a great street bike. Large-diameter
aluminum frame and way-sufficient components. It's got the best brakes I've ever used on a
bicycle. Bikes in the same line-up have gotten cheaper and better since I bought this one.

You pay a very dear premium for a functionally small increment in usability when you go from a
180.00 mass-market ATB to a 600.00 Cannondale. You're paying for something which is just too
subtle for most people to appreciate.

Ride both a $180 bike from a discount store and a $600 MTB from a LBS off-road and see which one
holds up better.

Of course, part of the cost savings of the discount store bikes is that the workers manufacturing
them in mainland China typically make the equivalent of $0.20-0.50/hour (US) while in Taiwan the
workers in bicycle factories typically make $10.00-15.00/hour (US).

Taiwan is also a democracy, while mainland China is a hybrid between command economy (Leninism)
and fascism.

For these reasons, I prefer to purchase bicycles made in CE, the US, Japan, or Taiwan, but
not China.

Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

"Edward Wong" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]... <snip>

Quoted message said:

My belief is to buy from the specialize bike dealers but then again, for
many people, the "x" Mart special is just fine for the intended use.

My son worked a an "X" Mart and put bikes together for them. Neither my son or his co-workers had
any experience or real training in putting a bike together the way it should be if it is to be sold
to the general public.

Keep that in mind when you are buying one of these bikes for your kid to save a hundred bucks or so.

skip

Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Mike Warner said:

... I bought a Royce Union ATB at Fred Meyer for 180.00. It's a great street bike.
Large-diameter aluminum frame and way-sufficient components. It's got the best brakes I've
ever used on a bicycle. Bikes in the same line-up have gotten cheaper and better since I
bought this one.

You pay a very dear premium for a functionally small increment in usability when you go from a
180.00 mass-market ATB to a 600.00 Cannondale. You're paying for something which is just too
subtle for most people to appreciate.

Ride both a $180 bike from a discount store and a $600 MTB from a LBS off-road and see which one
holds up better.

Of course, part of the cost savings of the discount store bikes is that the workers manufacturing
them in mainland China typically make the equivalent of $0.20-0.50/hour (US) while in Taiwan the
workers in bicycle factories typically make $10.00-15.00/hour (US).

Taiwan is also a democracy, while mainland China is a hybrid between command economy (Leninism)
and fascism.

For these reasons, I prefer to purchase bicycles made in CE, the US, Japan, or Taiwan, but
not China.

Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

If both bikes are ridden in the same conditions and care for the exact same way, then the $600 bike
has a chance of holding up better. If ridden like most ATB's are, namely on the pavement to ride
recreationally, to the corner store, to school, etc. then I doubt you'll notice much difference.
I've seen cheap bikes that look like hell and you can tell it's old, ridden around by some of the
homeless in my area and they seem to work well. By the same token, I've seen high end bikes that
sound like the chain is about to fall off or the deraillers need some serious TLC. Lesson learned
here is that how you treat your equipment is what really matters.

On the mainland China, I'd cut them some slack. They are changing and coming around. Fifty years or
so from now when they become the world's pre-eminent super power, we're going to wish they had
stayed as that backwards, communist country:-)

Edward Wong Orlando, FL