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Tactile paving on cycle paths

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UK and Europe
Published
31 July 2007
Last activity
8 August 2007
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PhilD
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  1. Dear all,

    Recently I contacted my local council regarding that awful tactile
    paving that goes in at junctions (and other places), supposedly to
    make clear which side of a path cyclists and pedestrians are supposed
    to go. I pointed out that in my experience it is better to cycle
    across the transverse strips (like a cattle grid: supposed to be the
    pedestrian side), and push a pushchair along the longitudinal strips
    (supposed to be the cycle side).

    I asked what the standards are, and who specified them. I also asked
    who would be responsible if I were to have an injury as a result of an
    accident on the tiles (you know, when the front wheel "kicks" as a
    result of being caught by the longitudinal strips).

    I thought you might like to see the reply.

    =============
    Thank you for your recent email dated 27th July regarding the use of
    tactile paving along segregated footpaths / cycle tracks.

    In this instance XXXXX Council follows "Guidance on the use of tactile
    paving surfaces" published by the Department for Transport. (The
    document can be downloaded from the Dft website). The Dft describes
    the 'rail/fence system' as tramline and ladder, which is probably why
    you had no joy searching on the internet.

    Advice in the Dft document was compiled after a full consultation
    process with interested groups, such as the Royal National Institute
    for the Blind. As the title states, the document only offers
    "Guidance" however deviation from the stated principles would require
    consultation from the Dft and the Guide Dogs for the Blind
    Association.

    To answer your main question of how the 'tramline-ladder 'standard was
    derived, the document states "This arrangement was chosen because it
    was felt the rumble effect created by the transverse pattern would
    deter cyclists from entering on the pedestrian side". This isn't
    explored in any greater depth.

    The various patterns on tactile paving slabs were designed to create
    an under-foot signature to visually impaired pedestrians, without
    creating a tripping hazard. These policies have been employed all over
    the country for at least two decades and are well known to some 1
    million visually impaired or blind people. Deviation from this
    guidance would therefore be confusing and potentially dangerous to the
    visually impaired, pedestrians and cyclists.

    The height of raised bars on the tactile paving slabs, which form the
    'tramlines' are 5mm (+/-0.5mm). These were designed with both cyclists
    and pedestrians in mind such that the risk of a tripping or slipping
    hazard is negligible. The slabs also comply with British and European
    Standards, so in answer to your second question, any compensation
    claim related to the ridges on the tactile paving slabs being solely
    responsible for an accidental injury to a cyclist, i think would be
    difficult to prove and substantiate? In such a case, the law suit
    would be between the individual and the Department for Transport, on
    the basis the Council followed their guidelines. I must make clear
    that i am no expert on civil law, i am simply expressing my
    professional view as a Civil Engineer.

    ==================

    Has anyone ever tried taking to court a case for switching the sides
    of the rumble strips?

    On the routes having these things I use with any regularity (not
    many), I always use the transverse side unless there is someone else
    on it at the time, switching to the cycle side either side. The vast
    majority of pedestrians and wheelchair users I see use the cycle side
    thoughout. I have never seen a blind person on one of these paths
    (not that I decry them the use), although given the areas concerned it
    would probably be unwise anyway.

    Is it worth mounting a campaign to change things?

    PhilD

    --
    <><

  2. PhilD said:

    On the routes having these things I use with any regularity (not
    many), I always use the transverse side unless there is someone else
    on it at the time, switching to the cycle side either side. The vast
    majority of pedestrians and wheelchair users I see use the cycle side
    thoughout. I have never seen a blind person on one of these paths
    (not that I decry them the use), although given the areas concerned it
    would probably be unwise anyway.

    The path outside my house has thes parallel lines as you describe, put a
    few leaves on them and there is a real danger of falling off.

    As you say all the pedestrians ignore them anyway.

    The person who designed them clearly never tested his idea with a bike.

    Quoted message said:

    Is it worth mounting a campaign to change things?

    No just ignore them like everyone else.

  3. PhilD <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1185879111.206029.83950
    @q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

    Quoted message said:

    Has anyone ever tried taking to court a case for switching the sides
    of the rumble strips?

    On the routes having these things I use with any regularity (not
    many), I always use the transverse side unless there is someone else
    on it at the time, switching to the cycle side either side. The vast
    majority of pedestrians and wheelchair users I see use the cycle side
    thoughout. I have never seen a blind person on one of these paths
    (not that I decry them the use), although given the areas concerned it
    would probably be unwise anyway.

    Is it worth mounting a campaign to change things?

    IMO these things are the spawn of Satan and the first time I encountered
    one my front wheel ran in one tramline, my rear in another. Thankfully, I
    wasn't clipped in because it took a quick dab of a foot to sort things out.
    I've avoided them where possible and been very wary of those I can't avoid
    ever since. I've often pondered what the designer who came up with this
    idiocy was smoking when he or she decided to mark the cycle side with
    wheel-traps!

    FWIW, my wife manages a home for the visually impaired and I can confirm
    that the arrangement of these strips is well-known to that community. Thus
    changing things would almost certainly cause confusion, and (unfortunately)
    I suspect any campaign to do so would probably fail.

    --
    Geoff

  4. Geoff Lane said:


    IMO these things are the spawn of Satan and the first time I encountered
    one my front wheel ran in one tramline, my rear in another. Thankfully, I
    wasn't clipped in because it took a quick dab of a foot to sort things out.
    I've avoided them where possible and been very wary of those I can't avoid
    ever since. I've often pondered what the designer who came up with this
    idiocy was smoking when he or she decided to mark the cycle side with
    wheel-traps!

    FWIW, my wife manages a home for the visually impaired and I can confirm
    that the arrangement of these strips is well-known to that community. Thus
    changing things would almost certainly cause confusion, and (unfortunately)
    I suspect any campaign to do so would probably fail.

    Its very clear from the rely received that only visually impaired users
    were consulted and cyclists were left out. I also find the whole lot is
    treacherous when they have a ground frost on them because of their
    smooth surface. I do suspect that the whole problem could be solved
    without breaking the convention that the visually impaired community
    understand if the surface were a roughened one. Tyres would then ride
    up the walls of the tramlines rather than being pushed and sliding
    sideways on the bottom. It would solve the ground frost problem too.

    Tony

  5. On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 03:51:51 -0700 someone who may be PhilD
    <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    I thought you might like to see the reply.

    =============

    Quoted message said:

    Advice in the Dft document was compiled after a full consultation
    process with interested groups, such as the Royal National Institute
    for the Blind.

    If you wish to take this further, I suggest a Freedom of Information
    request to the DfT to find out which organisations were involved in
    this "full consultation process". When you know this ask any cycling
    organisations who were consulted, there may be none, what they said.

    Quoted message said:

    in answer to your second question, any compensation
    claim related to the ridges on the tactile paving slabs being solely
    responsible for an accidental injury to a cyclist, i think would be
    difficult to prove and substantiate? In such a case, the law suit
    would be between the individual and the Department for Transport,

    That is incorrect. A claim would be against the Council who
    installed the things. The defendant may well mount a defence which
    involves claiming that they were following advice, but that is a
    separate matter.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh
    I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

  6. Tony Raven said:
    Geoff Lane said:


    IMO these things are the spawn of Satan and the first time I encountered
    one my front wheel ran in one tramline, my rear in another. Thankfully, I
    wasn't clipped in because it took a quick dab of a foot to sort things out.
    I've avoided them where possible and been very wary of those I can't avoid
    ever since. I've often pondered what the designer who came up with this
    idiocy was smoking when he or she decided to mark the cycle side with
    wheel-traps!

    FWIW, my wife manages a home for the visually impaired and I can confirm
    that the arrangement of these strips is well-known to that community. Thus
    changing things would almost certainly cause confusion, and (unfortunately)
    I suspect any campaign to do so would probably fail.

    Its very clear from the rely received that only visually impaired users
    were consulted and cyclists were left out. I also find the whole lot is
    treacherous when they have a ground frost on them because of their
    smooth surface. I do suspect that the whole problem could be solved
    without breaking the convention that the visually impaired community
    understand if the surface were a roughened one. Tyres would then ride
    up the walls of the tramlines rather than being pushed and sliding
    sideways on the bottom. It would solve the ground frost problem too.

    Tony

    things like that are one reason i avoid cycle paths. ie i want to travel
    at a comftble speed with out having to watch out for sillyness like
    that.

    roger

    --
    www.rogermerriman.com

  7. On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 03:51:51 -0700

    PhilD said:

    I thought you might like to see the reply.

    Good of them to take the time to write a real reply.
    One might almost suspect the author supports your point.

    Quoted message said:


    Has anyone ever tried taking to court a case for switching the sides
    of the rumble strips?

    I think that's about as much of an option as switching to right-hand
    traffic at this stage. Blind people need basic consistency here.

    If this is to change, it needs a new design:
    * Sufficiently distinct from what we have that it doesn't confuse
    the blind. So no similar stripes in either direction.
    * But fixing the cyclist's side of things.

    Quoted message said:

    On the routes having these things I use with any regularity (not
    many), I always use the transverse side unless there is someone else
    on it at the time, switching to the cycle side either side.

    I expect that's usual in practice.

    Quoted message said:

    The vast
    majority of pedestrians and wheelchair users I see use the cycle side
    thoughout.

    :-)

    Quoted message said:

    I have never seen a blind person on one of these paths
    (not that I decry them the use), although given the areas concerned it
    would probably be unwise anyway.

    Is it worth mounting a campaign to change things?

    Why? It's just another incidence of psychlepaths inadequacies.
    If you want to go for the mainstream press, I'd suggest an angle
    of ridiculing the things.

    --
    not me guv

  8. On 31 Jul 2007 11:09:14 GMT someone who may be Geoff Lane
    <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    FWIW, my wife manages a home for the visually impaired and I can confirm
    that the arrangement of these strips is well-known to that community. Thus
    changing things would almost certainly cause confusion, and (unfortunately)
    I suspect any campaign to do so would probably fail.

    No need for confusion, if a suitable surface is chosen for the cycle
    side. This would need to avoid the various dots that are in use.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh
    I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

  9. Geoff Lane said:
    PhilD said:

    Is it worth mounting a campaign to change things?

    I asked the guy at DfT (Gereint Killa) who I think would have to
    authorise any changes, and he wasn't too hopeful about getting the
    polarity reversed. He did suggest he might try to change the standard
    to require a shorter length of the paving: 800 mm instead of at least
    1600. This would help a bit.

    Quoted message said:

    IMO these things are the spawn of Satan and the first time I encountered
    one my front wheel ran in one tramline, my rear in another. Thankfully, I
    wasn't clipped in because it took a quick dab of a foot to sort things out.
    ...
    FWIW, my wife manages a home for the visually impaired and I can confirm
    that the arrangement of these strips is well-known to that community. Thus
    changing things would almost certainly cause confusion, and (unfortunately)
    I suspect any campaign to do so would probably fail.

    That's useful to know.

    Note that there are two types of tactile paving with parallel bars:
    flat-topped and round-topped. The latter, laid transversely, is meant
    to warn pedestrians of hazards such as the top of steps. I would argue
    that for consistently the transverse flat-topped bars should indicate
    the 'hazard' of the cycle side of the path.

    In many places, the round-topped paving is laid in error on
    cyclepaths. It traps wheels more than the flat-topped type. It's worth
    complaining about this.

    Colin McKensie

    --
    No-one has ever proved that cycle helmets make cycling any safer at
    the population level, and anyway cycling is about as safe per mile as
    walking.
    Make an informed choice - visit www.cyclehelmets.org.

  10. PhilD said the following on 31/07/2007 11:51:

    Quoted message said:

    Recently I contacted my local council regarding that awful tactile
    paving that goes in at junctions (and other places), supposedly to
    make clear which side of a path cyclists and pedestrians are supposed
    to go. I pointed out that in my experience it is better to cycle
    across the transverse strips (like a cattle grid: supposed to be the
    pedestrian side), and push a pushchair along the longitudinal strips
    (supposed to be the cycle side).

    This has come up before and various people, including myself, have
    expressed incredulity that some civil servant at the DfT can actually
    describe the parallel ridges as tramlines without realizing the
    connotations of tramlines and cyclists together. I have read the
    document referred to, and it really does say that. The first time I
    encountered these, I honestly thought the prats had got them the wrong
    way round.

    It doesn't take much thought to realise that tiny little push-chair or
    wheel-chair wheels are not going to much like transverse ridges, and
    bicycles don't like longitudinal ridges. Obviously said civil servant
    is incapable of much thought and wouldn't know one end of a bike from
    the other.

    In practise, I find that my commuter bike with narrow 38mm tyres doesn't
    object to these, but the knobblies on my MTB really do not like the
    longitudinal ridges, especially in the wet.

    As far as changing things go, I really think there isn't a snowball's
    chance in hell of getting them changed. I find it hard to believe that
    these things have been around for 20 years, but if it is true then the
    obvious defence would be that there have been no injuries caused by them
    in that time. Have there?

    --
    Paul Boyd
    http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

  11. Nick Kew said:

    Good of them to take the time to write a real reply.
    One might almost suspect the author supports your point.

    Yes, it is rather good, isn't it? The author does at least attempt to
    answer the points made, unlike some other council employees I've had
    occastion to write to.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Has anyone ever tried taking to court a case for switching the sides
    of the rumble strips?

    I think that's about as much of an option as switching to right-hand
    traffic at this stage. Blind people need basic consistency here.

    Serious thought: What about "rumbles" for the pedestrian side, that
    the blind people would still be able to feel, the same as now, and
    nothing at all for the bike side? Would that keep everyone happy?

    PhilD

    --
    <><

  12. Paul Boyd usenet.dont.work@plusnet said:

    In practise, I find that my commuter bike with narrow 38mm tyres doesn't
    object to these, but the knobblies on my MTB really do not like the
    longitudinal ridges, especially in the wet.

    38mm? Those are balloon tyres to me! I ride 1 3/8" and 1" on
    occasions and both sizes struggle going through the "tram lines". I
    used to try to do things properly, but I found the front wheel getting
    a "kick" regularly caused serious skidding and riding off the path
    into the verge. Now I just use the wrong side, which defeats the
    point somewhat and means that there is no need to have the horrible
    tiles at all.

    Quoted message said:

    As far as changing things go, I really think there isn't a snowball's
    chance in hell of getting them changed.

    I fear you may be right.

    PhilD

    --
    <><

  13. PhilD said the following on 31/07/2007 15:06:

    Quoted message said:

    38mm? Those are balloon tyres to me!

    Especially as they're 3.5mm wider than the 37mm tyres I had previously,
    and a full 12mm bigger overall diameter that caused chaos with mudguard
    clearance...

    --
    Paul Boyd
    http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

  14. On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 06:59:36 -0700 someone who may be PhilD
    <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    Serious thought: What about "rumbles" for the pedestrian side, that
    the blind people would still be able to feel, the same as now, and
    nothing at all for the bike side? Would that keep everyone happy?

    Probably not. The blind lobby appear to want something so that blind
    people know they are in the wrong place.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh
    I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

  15. On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:20:02 +0100 someone who may be Tony Raven
    <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    Its very clear from the rely received that only visually impaired users
    were consulted and cyclists were left out.

    I have encountered this with other things "masterminded" by the DfT
    and their predecessors.

    What they probably did was to ask the disability section of DfT.
    These people seem to have no consideration for anyone else and just
    dream up ideas on their own which they think will suit those they
    claim to represent.

    The fact that their mistake means they expose blind people to more
    danger because they have driven many cyclists onto the footpath side
    would probably be dismissed out of hand if they were confronted with
    it.

    The best approach in the circumstances is constant complaining to
    make them aware that they have made a mistake. Nothing overt, just
    constant gentle complaining.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh
    I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

  16. PhilD said:

    To answer your main question of how the 'tramline-ladder 'standard was
    derived, the document states "This arrangement was chosen because it
    was felt the rumble effect created by the transverse pattern would
    deter cyclists from entering on the pedestrian side". This isn't
    explored in any greater depth.

    So by avoiding the dangerous parallel ridges cyclists choose the
    transverse ones because it's better. That's a fantastic 'deterrent'!

    Wouldn't it have been better to put transverse ridges in the cycle
    lane so blind people knew they were somewhere they shouldn't be and
    have nothing in the footpath, like most of the rest of the footpath?

    peter

  17. Tony Raven said:
    Geoff Lane said:


    IMO these things are the spawn of Satan and the first time I
    encountered one my front wheel ran in one tramline, my rear in
    another. Thankfully, I wasn't clipped in because it took a quick dab
    of a foot to sort things out. I've avoided them where possible and
    been very wary of those I can't avoid ever since. I've often pondered
    what the designer who came up with this idiocy was smoking when he or
    she decided to mark the cycle side with wheel-traps!

    FWIW, my wife manages a home for the visually impaired and I can
    confirm that the arrangement of these strips is well-known to that
    community. Thus changing things would almost certainly cause
    confusion, and (unfortunately) I suspect any campaign to do so would
    probably fail.

    Its very clear from the rely received that only visually impaired users
    were consulted and cyclists were left out.

    In the same way that "consultations" for practically any road design or
    traffic management change invite and include representatives for
    pedestrians, the blind, cyclists, bus companies, and the emergency
    services, yet never mention or even acknowledge that "normal" motorists
    may want to have an input, or that any of their requirements or concerns
    should even be considered.

    --
    Matt B

  18. PhilD said:
    Paul Boyd usenet.dont.work@plusnet said:

    In practise, I find that my commuter bike with narrow 38mm tyres doesn't
    object to these, but the knobblies on my MTB really do not like the
    longitudinal ridges, especially in the wet.

    38mm? Those are balloon tyres to me! I ride 1 3/8" and 1" on
    occasions and both sizes struggle going through the "tram lines". I
    used to try to do things properly, but I found the front wheel getting
    a "kick" regularly caused serious skidding and riding off the path
    into the verge. Now I just use the wrong side, which defeats the
    point somewhat and means that there is no need to have the horrible
    tiles at all.


    heh some of the bigger mountain bike tires are close on 3 inch attaully
    there are few that are over. the whole range is moving wider as whole.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    As far as changing things go, I really think there isn't a snowball's
    chance in hell of getting them changed.

    I fear you may be right.


    would seem so.

    Quoted message said:

    PhilD

    roger

    Quoted message said:


    --
    <><

    --
    www.rogermerriman.com

  19. Paul Boyd usenet.dont.work@plusnet said:

    PhilD said the following on 31/07/2007 11:51:

    Quoted message said:

    Recently I contacted my local council regarding that awful tactile
    paving that goes in at junctions (and other places), supposedly to
    make clear which side of a path cyclists and pedestrians are supposed
    to go. I pointed out that in my experience it is better to cycle
    across the transverse strips (like a cattle grid: supposed to be the
    pedestrian side), and push a pushchair along the longitudinal strips
    (supposed to be the cycle side).

    This has come up before and various people, including myself, have
    expressed incredulity that some civil servant at the DfT can actually
    describe the parallel ridges as tramlines without realizing the
    connotations of tramlines and cyclists together. I have read the
    document referred to, and it really does say that. The first time I
    encountered these, I honestly thought the prats had got them the wrong
    way round.

    heh!

    Quoted message said:


    It doesn't take much thought to realise that tiny little push-chair or
    wheel-chair wheels are not going to much like transverse ridges, and
    bicycles don't like longitudinal ridges. Obviously said civil servant
    is incapable of much thought and wouldn't know one end of a bike from
    the other.

    that is probably not far off the mark.

    Quoted message said:


    In practise, I find that my commuter bike with narrow 38mm tyres doesn't
    object to these, but the knobblies on my MTB really do not like the
    longitudinal ridges, especially in the wet.


    intresting, the tires on my mountain bike allways feel safe, on road
    etc, but then as they are mud tires, narrow with widely spaced but
    massive nobs i tend to be careful.

    Quoted message said:

    As far as changing things go, I really think there isn't a snowball's
    chance in hell of getting them changed. I find it hard to believe that
    these things have been around for 20 years, but if it is true then the
    obvious defence would be that there have been no injuries caused by them
    in that time. Have there?

    roger

    --
    www.rogermerriman.com

  20. In article <[email hidden]>,
    naked_draughtsman
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    Wouldn't it have been better to put transverse ridges in the cycle
    lane so blind people knew they were somewhere they shouldn't be and
    have nothing in the footpath, like most of the rest of the footpath?


    If they walk through the plain bit they might not realise there's a
    cyclepath alongside the footpath. When they walk over the ladder they
    know there's a hazard and that they're on the right bit of the path to
    avoid it. Quite what stops them from crossing the solid white line I'm
    not sure ...

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