T value was NORMAL. E was LOW

pete said:

If this can be substantiated as the cause for the high ratio, it
points to Floyd's innocence, doesn't it?

No. Neither does the argument that Testosterone wouldn't have even
helped Floyd in stage 17.

Athletes worried about failing a urine test because of low levels of
epitestosterone may find that using a dose of 500iu of Human Chorionic
Gonadotropin (HCG) will increase epitestosterone levels.

Perhaps the Phonak pharmacists forgot to add the HCG.

Evil exists.

"pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If this can be substantiated as the cause for the high ratio, it
points to Floyd's innocence, doesn't it?

Joe King said:

Athletes worried about failing a urine test because of low levels of
epitestosterone may find that using a dose of 500iu of Human Chorionic
Gonadotropin (HCG) will increase epitestosterone levels.

Perhaps the Phonak pharmacists forgot to add the HCG.

Evil exists.

Dumbass,

Would all of you self-righteous clowns look in a mirror
or read the newspaper or something. Evil exists in vast
quantities, but promoting sports doping to the level of "evil"
in today's world is purely self-indulgence. There are
enough examples of actual evil in every day's news.

You guys wanted Floyd to be a hero, and if he wasn't
going to be a hero, he'd be a zero and you'd trash him
(look at how people trash Leipheimer for failing to excel
at the Tour) and now you're condemning him for the choices
that you, indirectly, put pressure on him to make. It's ugly.

When this self-righteous obsession was directed against
LANCE, I thought it had to do with LANCE's sometimes
obnoxious persona. But now that it's directed against
Floyd, whom nobody hated before, I'm thinking it has
deeper roots. We want our heroes to be perfect to
compensate for our own inadequacies; it looks like Floyd
pays the price for the fans' own nagging feelings
that they might not be morally perfect.

Kill 'em all and let [censored] Pound sort them out.

Ben
Judge Natty Dread

So, if the HCG readily shows up in tests, what's the point?

Joe King said:

Athletes worried about failing a urine test because of low levels of
epitestosterone may find that using a dose of 500iu of Human Chorionic
Gonadotropin (HCG) will increase epitestosterone levels.

Perhaps the Phonak pharmacists forgot to add the HCG.

Evil exists.

"pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If this can be substantiated as the cause for the high ratio, it
points to Floyd's innocence, doesn't it?

[email hidden] a écrit :

Quoted message said:

Joe King said:

Athletes worried about failing a urine test because of low levels of
epitestosterone may find that using a dose of 500iu of Human Chorionic
Gonadotropin (HCG) will increase epitestosterone levels.

Perhaps the Phonak pharmacists forgot to add the HCG.

Evil exists.

Dumbass,

Would all of you self-righteous clowns look in a mirror
or read the newspaper or something. Evil exists in vast
quantities, but promoting sports doping to the level of "evil"
in today's world is purely self-indulgence. There are
enough examples of actual evil in every day's news.

You guys wanted Floyd to be a hero, and if he wasn't
going to be a hero, he'd be a zero and you'd trash him
(look at how people trash Leipheimer for failing to excel
at the Tour) and now you're condemning him for the choices
that you, indirectly, put pressure on him to make. It's ugly.

When this self-righteous obsession was directed against
LANCE, I thought it had to do with LANCE's sometimes
obnoxious persona. But now that it's directed against
Floyd, whom nobody hated before, I'm thinking it has
deeper roots. We want our heroes to be perfect to
compensate for our own inadequacies; it looks like Floyd
pays the price for the fans' own nagging feelings
that they might not be morally perfect.

Kill 'em all and let [censored] Pound sort them out.

Ben
Judge Natty Dread

If the one and only positive test related to some rider who finished
122.5th, this entire thread would not exist. It still rattles me that
the single positive result was this one. I still don't know how to
evaluate that.

--

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
*******

La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
-- Einstein, A.

pete said:

Quoted message said:

If this can be substantiated as the cause for the high ratio, it
points to Floyd's innocence, doesn't it?

Froid Landis said:

No. Neither does the argument that Testosterone wouldn't have even
helped Floyd in stage 17.

Talking about ourself in third person are we now.

in message <[email hidden]>, pete

(') said:

If this can be substantiated as the cause for the high ratio, it
points to Floyd's innocence, doesn't it?

No, it points to him having drunk masses of water. Which we knew. And
this is /old/ news - we've known it for ten days at least.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

The Conservative Party is now dead. The corpse may still be
twitching, but resurrection is not an option - unless Satan
chucks them out of Hell as too objectionable even for him.

in message <[email hidden]>, Sandy

(') said:

[email hidden] a écrit :

Quoted message said:

When this self-righteous obsession was directed against
LANCE, I thought it had to do with LANCE's sometimes
obnoxious persona. But now that it's directed against
Floyd, whom nobody hated before, I'm thinking it has
deeper roots. We want our heroes to be perfect to
compensate for our own inadequacies; it looks like Floyd
pays the price for the fans' own nagging feelings
that they might not be morally perfect.

If the one and only positive test related to some rider who finished
122.5th, this entire thread would not exist. It still rattles me that
the single positive result was this one. I still don't know how to
evaluate that.

Uhhhmmm... Landis was tested at least five times during the tour, and
failed only once. While it's possible that he took a whole cocktail of
stuff the day after the big bonk, it's unlikely that he took
testosterone on one day only. By itself, a single hit would not make
much difference to either performance or recovery.

I'm not one of those people who believe 'they all dope'. I think that
probably most of them don't. But I don't think you can assume that just
because no-one else failed a test, no-one else was doping.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
"The result is a language that... not even its mother could
love. Like the camel, Common Lisp is a horse designed by
committee. Camels do have their uses."
;; Scott Fahlman, 7 March 1995

Sandy said:

[email hidden] a écrit :

Quoted message said:

Joe King said:

Athletes worried about failing a urine test because of low levels of
epitestosterone may find that using a dose of 500iu of Human Chorionic
Gonadotropin (HCG) will increase epitestosterone levels.

Perhaps the Phonak pharmacists forgot to add the HCG.

Evil exists.

Dumbass,

Would all of you self-righteous clowns look in a mirror
or read the newspaper or something. Evil exists in vast
quantities, but promoting sports doping to the level of "evil"
in today's world is purely self-indulgence. There are
enough examples of actual evil in every day's news.

You guys wanted Floyd to be a hero, and if he wasn't
going to be a hero, he'd be a zero and you'd trash him
(look at how people trash Leipheimer for failing to excel
at the Tour) and now you're condemning him for the choices
that you, indirectly, put pressure on him to make. It's ugly.

When this self-righteous obsession was directed against
LANCE, I thought it had to do with LANCE's sometimes
obnoxious persona. But now that it's directed against
Floyd, whom nobody hated before, I'm thinking it has
deeper roots. We want our heroes to be perfect to
compensate for our own inadequacies; it looks like Floyd
pays the price for the fans' own nagging feelings
that they might not be morally perfect.

Kill 'em all and let [censored] Pound sort them out.

Ben
Judge Natty Dread

If the one and only positive test related to some rider who finished
122.5th, this entire thread would not exist. It still rattles me that
the single positive result was this one. I still don't know how to
evaluate that.

For a material that breaks down so rapidly in the system that he would almost
have to have doped on the road.

It is truly a strange case.

Ron

Sandy said:

[email hidden] a écrit :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When this self-righteous obsession was directed against
LANCE, I thought it had to do with LANCE's sometimes
obnoxious persona. But now that it's directed against
Floyd, whom nobody hated before, I'm thinking it has
deeper roots. We want our heroes to be perfect to
compensate for our own inadequacies; it looks like Floyd
pays the price for the fans' own nagging feelings
that they might not be morally perfect.

Kill 'em all and let [censored] Pound sort them out.

Ben
Judge Natty Dread

If the one and only positive test related to some rider who finished
122.5th, this entire thread would not exist. It still rattles me that
the single positive result was this one. I still don't know how to
evaluate that.

I don't either. I could offer various explanations, for example:
(1) there is only one user of doping in the race (which I
don't believe). (2) there are a number of users of doping,
carefully regulated so as not to test positive under most
circumstances, but that the extreme stress of the Tour can
create unusual circumstances that alter a rider's hormone
levels and mess up their programs. (3) the conspiracy theory,
that whether any doping test is revealed has to do with
the face-off between WADA, UCI, and ASO (which I think
has something to do with _how_ the test is revealed
but not the actual positive).

But there is also a more prosaic effect, which is that the
122.5th placed rider may never or hardly ever be tested
during the Tour. The UCI vampires regularly sample
the riders' hematocrits, but to my understanding there
are only about 5-6 pee tests per day: the top 3 of the stage,
the yellow jersey, and a few randoms. (Maybe the other
jersey holders also?) So if there is a positive, it is most
likely to be a sprinter (frequently in the top 3) or a GC
contender (frequent high finish, MJ wearer).

How many positives have there been during recent
Tours? I would guess 1 or 0. The last couple I can
remember are riders who got popped for high HCT
or EPO in the tests before the start and never actually
started. That also makes this result unusual.

Ben

"pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If this can be substantiated as the cause for the high ratio, it
points to Floyd's innocence, doesn't it?

Not really. Here's the main problem as I see it - the 5% cutoff is around
4:1 - only 5% of men have a naturally occuring ratio at or above that.
That's why UCI originally chose 6:1 - at that point you can pretty much
guarantee that the only cause for ratios above that is from artificial
enhancement or some sort of medical problem. I suppose it's possible for his
other problems and medications to shift it but 11:1 is pretty far out there.

But let's get down to brass tacks - the studies DO NOT show testosterone to
be helpful in endurance recovery regardless of what the rumors about it are.
Testosterone, like all steroids, builds muscle and can be used to rebuild
muscles damaged by overuse. But this isn't an overnight process.

Why would Landis use testosterone? For one thing it's easy to detect because
it does shift the e/t ratios. Secondly, you'd expect the medical staff of
teams to have told their riders the facts of life about drugs. Could it be
that Phonak isn't giving their riders knowledge of how easy it is to detect
most drugs?

Or are they as stupid as laff@me and actually believe that you can "mask"
the drugs in their system with old wive's tales and bad judgement?

Tom Kunich said:

Why would Landis use testosterone? For one thing it's easy to detect because
it does shift the e/t ratios. Secondly, you'd expect the medical staff of
teams to have told their riders the facts of life about drugs. Could it be
that Phonak isn't giving their riders knowledge of how easy it is to detect
most drugs?

Or are they as stupid as laff@me and actually believe that you can "mask"
the drugs in their system with old wive's tales and bad judgement?

I may have missed a few, but isn't this Phonak's 12th separate positive
(or doping related incident) since 2001? That's not counting Guidi's
positive A test for EPO, or some of the riders who were warned by the
UCI in 2004 for having funny blood values (Hamilton, Sevilla, Pereiro,
Dessel, J.E. Gutierrez and Santos Gonzalez, some of whom are part of
the dozen cases). You gotta admit, they do strike out more than most
teams.

Why is it so? Incompetence? Riders are doing it for themselves? Large
scale sabotage by some competitor to Phonak in the hearing aid market?

When people talk about the French conspiracy to dethrone American
riders from the top of the Tour de France, why is the above always
overlooked?

Jeff

Tom Kunich said:

"pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If this can be substantiated as the cause for the high ratio, it
points to Floyd's innocence, doesn't it?

Not really. Here's the main problem as I see it - the 5% cutoff is around
4:1 - only 5% of men have a naturally occuring ratio at or above that.
That's why UCI originally chose 6:1 - at that point you can pretty much
guarantee that the only cause for ratios above that is from artificial
enhancement or some sort of medical problem. I suppose it's possible for his
other problems and medications to shift it but 11:1 is pretty far out there.

But let's get down to brass tacks - the studies DO NOT show testosterone to
be helpful in endurance recovery regardless of what the rumors about it are.

This doesn't matter. What matters is the numerous hints we have that
endurance athletes seem to be *believing* that it might help.

Quoted message said:

Testosterone, like all steroids, builds muscle and can be used to rebuild
muscles damaged by overuse. But this isn't an overnight process.

Why would Landis use testosterone? For one thing it's easy to detect because
it does shift the e/t ratios. Secondly, you'd expect the medical staff of
teams to have told their riders the facts of life about drugs. Could it be
that Phonak isn't giving their riders knowledge of how easy it is to detect
most drugs?

I suppose they know exactly that it is easy to detect. Like HK > 50.
WADA has just put up a green light for using T to dope - as long as you
are below the ratio. Compare this to the blood doping (Tyler etc.) where
they did the doses in a way so that the HK of the riders just has to
stay below 50 to not get into trouble.

A general comment:

The argument that there is no scientific proof for substance XY being
not performance enhancing in this or that circumstances is bogus.

Two reasons for that are:
- It's not clear that the knowledge about what is performance enhancing
is deeper in the (legal) scientific field than in the circles concerned
with illegal performance enhancements. And even if we take this for
granted, it's still not clear if subjectively the doctors "prescribing"
doping products still think that they know better.
- Secondly, *if* something is scientifically proven to be performance
enhancing, all anti-doping scientists will *rush* to develop a test for
this - thereby making this product pointless for doping.
The conclusion is that obviously, most of the scientifically proven
performance enhancers will not be used for doping - leaving the doping
scene mainly with substances of disputed effect.

"Jeff Jones" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I may have missed a few, but isn't this Phonak's 12th separate
positive (or doping related incident) since 2001? That's not counting
Guidi's positive A test for EPO, or some of the riders who were warned
by the UCI in 2004 for having funny blood values (Hamilton, Sevilla,
Pereiro, Dessel, J.E. Gutierrez and Santos Gonzalez, some of whom are
part of the dozen cases). You gotta admit, they do strike out more
than most teams.

Why is it so? Incompetence? Riders are doing it for themselves? Large
scale sabotage by some competitor to Phonak in the hearing aid market?

Considering that Festina's sales went UP following the '98 scandal, I
think that Phonak's competitors would hire the best experts and donate
their services to help Phonak's riders avoid getting popped.

This raises another explanation -- Phonak sabotaging their own riders for
the publicity. Having already made the decision to end their sponsorship,
it looks like Floyd is now delivering maximum bang for the buck!

NS
brand awareness consultant

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If this can be substantiated as the cause for the high ratio, it
points to Floyd's innocence, doesn't it?

Not really. Here's the main problem as I see it - the 5% cutoff is around
4:1 - only 5% of men have a naturally occuring ratio at or above that.
That's why UCI originally chose 6:1 - at that point you can pretty much
guarantee that the only cause for ratios above that is from artificial
enhancement or some sort of medical problem. I suppose it's possible for
his other problems and medications to shift it but 11:1 is pretty far out
there.

But let's get down to brass tacks - the studies DO NOT show testosterone
to be helpful in endurance recovery regardless of what the rumors about it
are. Testosterone, like all steroids, builds muscle and can be used to
rebuild muscles damaged by overuse. But this isn't an overnight process.

During the period of late 60s through the later 90s experts thought that
steroids would have a negative effect on baseball players so baseball didn't
have to test...

Nev Shea wrote:
nother explanation -- Phonak sabotaging their own riders for

Quoted message said:

the publicity. Having already made the decision to end their sponsorship,
it looks like Floyd is now delivering maximum bang for the buck!

None of Phonak's potential customers will have heard anything about the
scandal.

Ernst Noch said:

Tom Kunich said:

"pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If this can be substantiated as the cause for the high ratio, it
points to Floyd's innocence, doesn't it?

Not really. Here's the main problem as I see it - the 5% cutoff is
around 4:1 - only 5% of men have a naturally occuring ratio at or
above that. That's why UCI originally chose 6:1 - at that point you
can pretty much guarantee that the only cause for ratios above that is
from artificial enhancement or some sort of medical problem. I suppose
it's possible for his other problems and medications to shift it but
11:1 is pretty far out there.

But let's get down to brass tacks - the studies DO NOT show
testosterone to be helpful in endurance recovery regardless of what
the rumors about it are.

This doesn't matter. What matters is the numerous hints we have that
endurance athletes seem to be *believing* that it might help.

Quoted message said:

Testosterone, like all steroids, builds muscle and can be used to
rebuild muscles damaged by overuse. But this isn't an overnight process.

Why would Landis use testosterone? For one thing it's easy to detect
because it does shift the e/t ratios. Secondly, you'd expect the
medical staff of teams to have told their riders the facts of life
about drugs. Could it be that Phonak isn't giving their riders
knowledge of how easy it is to detect most drugs?

I suppose they know exactly that it is easy to detect. Like HK > 50.
WADA has just put up a green light for using T to dope - as long as you
are below the ratio. Compare this to the blood doping (Tyler etc.) where
they did the doses in a way so that the HK of the riders just has to
stay below 50 to not get into trouble.

A general comment:

The argument that there is no scientific proof for substance XY being
not performance enhancing in this or that circumstances is bogus.

Two reasons for that are:
- It's not clear that the knowledge about what is performance enhancing
is deeper in the (legal) scientific field than in the circles concerned
with illegal performance enhancements. And even if we take this for
granted, it's still not clear if subjectively the doctors "prescribing"
doping products still think that they know better.
- Secondly, *if* something is scientifically proven to be performance
enhancing, all anti-doping scientists will *rush* to develop a test for
this - thereby making this product pointless for doping.
The conclusion is that obviously, most of the scientifically proven
performance enhancers will not be used for doping - leaving the doping
scene mainly with substances of disputed effect.

Somebody should ask Ferrari. 😉 Of course, he'd probably just come
back and say something like, "Testosterone is no more dangerous than
orange juice..."

~bob

"Stu Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nev Shea wrote:
nother explanation -- Phonak sabotaging their own riders for

Quoted message said:

the publicity. Having already made the decision to end their sponsorship,
it looks like Floyd is now delivering maximum bang for the buck!

None of Phonak's potential customers will have heard anything about the
scandal.

I don't know what you're getting down at the tail end of the earth, but
EVERYONE that knows I ride bikes has mentioned it including the guy
installing my granite counter tops who could go one on one with any plumber
on earth for ass crack showing.

"Frank Drackman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If this can be substantiated as the cause for the high ratio, it
points to Floyd's innocence, doesn't it?

Not really. Here's the main problem as I see it - the 5% cutoff is around
4:1 - only 5% of men have a naturally occuring ratio at or above that.
That's why UCI originally chose 6:1 - at that point you can pretty much
guarantee that the only cause for ratios above that is from artificial
enhancement or some sort of medical problem. I suppose it's possible for
his other problems and medications to shift it but 11:1 is pretty far out
there.

But let's get down to brass tacks - the studies DO NOT show testosterone
to be helpful in endurance recovery regardless of what the rumors about
it are. Testosterone, like all steroids, builds muscle and can be used to
rebuild muscles damaged by overuse. But this isn't an overnight process.

During the period of late 60s through the later 90s experts thought that
steroids would have a negative effect on baseball players so baseball
didn't have to test...

You really believe that? Baseball was committed to breaking records. That's
what has sustained the audience and little else. Look at the front line on
football teams. Do you think that's natural? I knew a natural giant and he
tried out for the Raiders and he was TOO SLOW, TOO SMALL and TOO WEAK.
Basketball players used to be reasonably sized guys because the really tall
guys couldn't move fast enough. Suddenly they were moving FASTER than the
little 6'4" guys.

There isn't ANY sport whether it's cross country skiing, Shot putting or
target shooting, that isn't doping in a large percentage of the top end of
the competition.

You pass rules against it and you test. But if you get overzealous and you
invent "accuracy" where none exists you simply destroy the sports you claim
to be protecting. That's what's happening to cycling at the moment.