[Syd] Courteous drivers

[email hidden said:

"]

So thanks out there to the few (and hopefully growing) number of
drivers who recognise bicyclists as part of the road culture. Who do
see us on the roads. And who do clearly signal their intentions to
bicyclists when driving. I wish there were more of you.

Excellent! Had a eye-opening incident last week while waiting to do a right-hand turn from side street into main road. A bus was travelling in the opposite direction, on the green light, the driver got eye contact and then waived me through first!

In aus.bicycle on Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:28:12 +1100

cfsmtb said:

Excellent! Had a eye-opening incident last week while waiting to do a
right-hand turn from side street into main road. A bus was travelling
in the opposite direction, on the green light, the driver got eye
contact and then waived me through first!

Must be catching.

This morning I was coming to a roundabout, stopped to let traffic go
by, thought I had a clear run until the bod entering from the rod on
my left and signalling right used the roundabout to do a U turn.

But the bus coming from my right waved me on rather than taking his
right of way.

Zebee

This is just waiting for the BUT story. Yes, I had one. Silly cow in a
pretend car (Hyundai Excel (harhar, excel at what?). I hope her
steering fails when there are no riders around.

Donga

Quoted message said:

So thanks out there to the few (and hopefully growing) number of
drivers who recognise bicyclists as part of the road culture. Who do
see us on the roads. And who do clearly signal their intentions to
bicyclists when driving. I wish there were more of you.

I had a similar unexpected experience yesterday evening. Popped out of a
bike path to turn right onto a busy and narrow road - the one that runs
past the Innaloo cinemas for you Perth people. Moved into the centre
island crossing, waiting on a long stream of traffic on my left. Looking
to my right there are cars on the other side of the road waiting to turn
right into a side street 10 metres ahead of me.

Looking back left, a small white Echo slows and flashes his lights. Guy
is big with a huge beard and would look much more comfortable on a
Harley. I assumed he was flashing his lights for the cars just ahead of
me trying to turn right across his path (which they did) so I just
waited - I mean, he can't possibly be indicating that I should join the
traffic!? Well, he slowed to stop and flashed his lights again. Gave
him a smile and wave and slotted in. Made my ride.

--
..dt

Acts of courtesy do actually happen in Sydney fairly regulary and I always try to wave to indicate a thankyou.

The sad thing is that on nearly every ride some moron in a cage will show either a complete lack of courtesy or do something that requires dodging to avoid a crash. I am sure it relates to the lack of cyclists in Sydney compared to Melbourne where the drivers have a much better attitude towards cyclists.
This in turn creates a disincentive towards more people cycling.

Cheers

Geoff

geoffs said:

Acts of courtesy do actually happen in Sydney fairly regulary and I
always try to wave to indicate a thankyou.

The sad thing is that on nearly every ride some moron in a cage will
show either a complete lack of courtesy or do something that requires
dodging to avoid a crash. I am sure it relates to the lack of cyclists
in Sydney compared to Melbourne where the drivers have a much better
attitude towards cyclists.

I'm not so sure whether it has anything to do with you being a cyclist.
My experience in Melbourne is that I experience more discourteous y
whilst driving a car than I do while riding a bike. I'm sure it's
because in a car I'm `competing' for more road space.
--
Cheers | ~~ __@
Euan | ~~ _-\<,
Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)

Euan said:

geoffs said:

Acts of courtesy do actually happen in Sydney fairly regulary and I
always try to wave to indicate a thankyou.
The sad thing is that on nearly every ride some moron in a cage will
show either a complete lack of courtesy or do something that requires
dodging to avoid a crash. I am sure it relates to the lack of cyclists
in Sydney compared to Melbourne where the drivers have a much better
attitude towards cyclists.

I'm not so sure whether it has anything to do with you being a
cyclist. My experience in Melbourne is that I experience more
discourteous y whilst driving a car than I do while riding a bike.
I'm sure it's because in a car I'm `competing' for more road space.

In a car, you are not a human being to other drivers, you are just a
chunk of metal that gets in the way; therefore, you are shown every
courtesy due to a chunk of metal. This is one of the processes of
alienation, as Erich Fromm would have called it, that exists in our
society.

Also, because a car driver travels at high speed, from a human point
of view, (ignoring city peak hour :-)) and because of the enclosed and
"cushioned" nature of the interior of a car, a false sense of
detachment from one's surroundings is necessarily created, and life
assumes the aspect of a video game, where external reality is little
more than a sequence of images displayed through the windows of the
vehicle, and other people become simply obstacles to avoid (or to hit,
in the case of road rage). This is the de-humanising or alienating
influence that the car necessarily has on the driver.

David

--

David Trudgett
http://www.zeta.org.au/~wpower/

Terroristic warfare might be carried out by states -- obliterative war
is surely terroristic -- or it might be carried out by national or
international political groups, with or without the open or
surreptitious support of states.

-- J. Teichman, "Pacifism and the Just War: A Study in Applied
Philosophy", Basil Blackwell, 1986, p.96

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 03 Apr 2006 07:57:51 +1000

David Trudgett said:

more than a sequence of images displayed through the windows of the
vehicle, and other people become simply obstacles to avoid (or to hit,
in the case of road rage). This is the de-humanising or alienating
influence that the car necessarily has on the driver.

So everyone gets it both ways - dehumanising inside and out!

I notice that when I ride my motorcycle, cars tend to be things not
people - that is I view them as mobile, mostly predictable, obstacles,
and it's when they don't behave as I predict that I get annoyed 🙂

This is especially true of cars with tinted windows, it's like they
don't want you to see them as inhabited by humans.

On the other hand, if there's a reason to see the car as inhabited by
a human, such as an L plate and clear nervousness, I switch viewpoints
and no longer see the car as a separate non-human thing, but just a
container with a person inside.

The 'bent seems to flush humans out of their boxes 🙂 I get waves and
smiles from car drivers, don't recall that happening on the MTB. They
talk to me at lights asking what it is and if it is as comfortable as
it looks. I do sometimes wonder if more bods would ride bikes if
bents were as cheap as lowish end MTBs.

Local drivers are still being unbelievably courteous, city ones are
being typical city drivers but still nothing dangerous. A matter of
time I suppose, but I'll enjoy it while it lasts.

Hell, even the peds on the bike paths are behaving well, must be the
cooler weather or something.

Zebee
- who is on a course this week so won't be riding in rush hour
anymore, back to the evening practice.

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 03 Apr 2006 07:57:51 +1000

David Trudgett said:

more than a sequence of images displayed through the windows of the
vehicle, and other people become simply obstacles to avoid (or to hit,
in the case of road rage). This is the de-humanising or alienating
influence that the car necessarily has on the driver.

So everyone gets it both ways - dehumanising inside and out!

Unfortunately, that appears to be about the size of it. :-(

Quoted message said:

I notice that when I ride my motorcycle, cars tend to be things not
people - that is I view them as mobile, mostly predictable, obstacles,
and it's when they don't behave as I predict that I get annoyed 🙂

This is especially true of cars with tinted windows, it's like they
don't want you to see them as inhabited by humans.

I don't know about you, but I have trouble seeing the occupants of
"normal" cars, let alone the ones with tinted windows. The occupants
often look like no more than shadows as they flit by. I'm sure that
there are people who wave at me when they see me on the road, then
wonder why I don't wave back... even when I happen to be looking in
their direction... (sometimes I do wave, when by some fluke I see
them, and when they aren't long gone by the time I could raise my
hand).

Quoted message said:

The 'bent seems to flush humans out of their boxes 🙂

Forgive my ignorance, but what sort of animal is a 'bent? :-)

Quoted message said:

Hell, even the peds on the bike paths are behaving well, must be the
cooler weather or something.

Wait 'til the homeostasis kicks in.

Catchya,

David

--

David Trudgett
http://www.zeta.org.au/~wpower/

Peace will never come until the great powers courageously decide to
disarm themselves.

-- Mohandas Gandhi, "Non-Violence in Peace and War", Navajivan
Publishing, 1948, I-176, cited in Merton, Thomas, "Gandhi on
Non-Violence", New Directions, 1964, p.53.

David Trudgett said:

Zebee Johnstone said:

The 'bent seems to flush humans out of their boxes 🙂

Forgive my ignorance, but what sort of animal is a 'bent? :-)

Recumbent. Think of a bicycle. Then modify it, so instead of sitting in
an upright position with the feet below you, you're sitting in a
reclined position, feet ahead of you. Arms are relaxed at the sides, but
still have the responsibility for steering (probably more so than on a
bike, since a lot of the turning on a bike comes from leaning into the
turn rather than turning the front wheel).

Not having ridden one myself for more than a couple of feet, I can't
comment on what they're like. I'm ineligible for one; I can't grow a
bushy beard to save my life, and that's apparently one of the
pre-requisites.

More seriously, though, I can't help but wonder what the visibility of a
'bent is like to traffic, especially traffic like busses and trucks. I'd
be a little worried about that, even with a bright orange flag.

--
My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@ to usenet".

Hi Stuart!

Thanks for dispelling my appalling ignorance! :-)

Stuart Lamble said:

David Trudgett said:

Zebee Johnstone said:

The 'bent seems to flush humans out of their boxes 🙂

Forgive my ignorance, but what sort of animal is a 'bent? :-)

Recumbent. Think of a bicycle.

With three wheels, no? Tricycle? :-)

Quoted message said:

Then modify it, so instead of sitting in
an upright position with the feet below you, you're sitting in a
reclined position, feet ahead of you.

Ah! Of course! I know all about recumbents, never ridden one... ;-)
And here I was having visions of Zebee's ferret flushing humans out of
boxes... I was almost psychologically scarred for life.

Quoted message said:

More seriously, though,

You forget that this is aus.bicycle!

Quoted message said:

I can't help but wonder what the visibility of a 'bent is like to
traffic, especially traffic like busses and trucks. I'd be a little
worried about that, even with a bright orange flag.

Alas, I have had the same thoughts myself. That's an added benefit of
an MTB in traffic: more upright position gives better visibility (both
for the rider to see around, and others to see the rider).

On the subject of MTBs, has anyone found that the straight forks on an
MTB (mine are suspension forks) makes them a bit twitchy, i.e. a tad
difficult at times to keep in a nice straight line on the road?

David

--

David Trudgett
http://www.zeta.org.au/~wpower/

We take the side of science *in spite* of the patent absurdity of some
of its constructs, *in spite* of its failure to fulfill many of its
extravagant promises of health and life, *in spite* of the tolerance
of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories,
because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It
is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us
to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the
contrary, that we are forced by our *a priori* adherence to material
causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts
that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive,
no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that
materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the
door. (Emphasis in original.)

-- Richard Lewontin

David Trudgett said:

Hi Stuart!

Thanks for dispelling my appalling ignorance! :-)

Eh ... I have my areas of iggernance as well. No big deal. :-)

Quoted message said:

Stuart Lamble said:

Recumbent. Think of a bicycle.

With three wheels, no? Tricycle? :-)

Arguably, yes, but it's conceivable that some masochist out there has
made a two-wheeled recumbent. (That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to
it!)

ObCycling: Forgive me, aus.bicycle, for I have sinned. I ... I ...
*sobs* I failed to cycle for the past two months, and only dragged
myself back on the bike today.

My body is now craving food ... chips, muffins, anything with sugar and
carbohydrates and fat in it. I'm thinking that the money I save in
petrol and public transport fares is going to be eaten up in food ...

--
My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@ to usenet".

On 2006-04-03, David Trudgett (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

Stuart Lamble said:

More seriously, though,

You forget that this is aus.bicycle!

Shirley you jest.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can't help but wonder what the visibility of a 'bent is like to
traffic, especially traffic like busses and trucks. I'd be a little
worried about that, even with a bright orange flag.

Alas, I have had the same thoughts myself. That's an added benefit of
an MTB in traffic: more upright position gives better visibility (both
for the rider to see around, and others to see the rider).

And taking visibility to the extreme:

http://tallbike.net/index-movies.html

Quoted message said:

David Trudgett
http://www.zeta.org.au/~wpower/

We take the side of science *in spite* of the patent absurdity of some
of its constructs, *in spite* of its failure to fulfill many of its
extravagant promises of health and life, *in spite* of the tolerance
of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories,
because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It
is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us
to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the
contrary, that we are forced by our *a priori* adherence to material
causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts
that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive,
no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that
materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the
door. (Emphasis in original.)

-- Richard Lewontin

Strewth! Don't want to be a net cop (I only play one on TV), but your
sigfile is a little large!

--
TimC
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?

TimC said:

On 2006-04-03, David Trudgett (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

Stuart Lamble said:

More seriously, though,

You forget that this is aus.bicycle!

Shirley you jest.

Doh!

Quoted message said:

And taking visibility to the extreme:

http://tallbike.net/index-movies.html

That's a waste of Internet bandwidth, Tim! Tch! Tch! ;-)

Quoted message said:

Strewth! Don't want to be a net cop (I only play one on TV), but your
sigfile is a little large!

My sigfile is absolutely huge, yes, and growing every day, too! You
should see my killfile, though! Nah, just kidding.

Quoted message said:

--
TimC
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?

Now, get back to your workstation. ;-)

Cheers,

David

--

David Trudgett
http://www.zeta.org.au/~wpower/

Jesus was the most active resister known perhaps to history. This was
non-violence par excellence.

-- Mohandas Gandhi, "Non-Violence in Peace and War", Navajivan
Publishing, 1948, II-16, cited in Merton, Thomas, "Gandhi on
Non-Violence", New Directions, 1964, p.40.

On 2006-04-03, David Trudgett (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

TimC said:

Strewth! Don't want to be a net cop (I only play one on TV), but your
sigfile is a little large!

My sigfile is absolutely huge, yes, and growing every day, too!

Kibo, is that you?

Kibo has been missing for a bit over a month. His apartments are in a
building that was raided last year, because terrorists were found
there somewhere, so we suspect they just found his gas mask
collection, and he's currently detained in Guantanamo Bay.

Even his sister's telephone appears to be disconnected.

Worrying times, when you can be detained for being an interweb
celebrity.

--
TimC
"Nature is pretty" -- CmdrTaco

David Trudgett said:

On the subject of MTBs, has anyone found that the straight forks on an
MTB (mine are suspension forks) makes them a bit twitchy, i.e. a tad
difficult at times to keep in a nice straight line on the road?

Not the fault of the suspension forks. Straight or curved doesn't matter
(well, within reason), and even' straight forks' have an effective curve
built in usually, because the wheel axle is placed ahead of the line of the
fork blade. The twitchiness of steering is caused by the head angle of your
steering and the 'trail' of the front wheel. Generally a shallow (less
upright) head tube will give a more relaxed steering. Trail or castor is the
distance that the tyre contact point is behind the point where the steering
axis meets the ground. A trail of a 2-4" is about normal, the less it is the
more twitchy. A big curved fork with a very steep head angle could actually
give you zero, or negative trail, which would be disastrous.

My trail-riding MTB, with straight suspension forks, has a head angle of 69
degrees, with a trail of over 4". This makes it a very good bike for open
track descents, very predictable and controlled; a bit more work needed on
snakey trails between the trees, there's a real technique to getting it
through the corners.

Having said all that, a lot of MTBs are focussed on narrow single-track
riding and race use, consequently they may have quite steep head angles.
This may be the case with yours.

--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

Peter Signorini said:

David Trudgett said:

On the subject of MTBs, has anyone found that the straight forks on an
MTB (mine are suspension forks) makes them a bit twitchy, i.e. a tad
difficult at times to keep in a nice straight line on the road?

Not the fault of the suspension forks. Straight or curved doesn't
matter (well, within reason), and even' straight forks' have an
effective curve built in usually, because the wheel axle is placed
ahead of the line of the fork blade.

Yes, that's true. I should have thought of the virtual curve effect!
:-)

Quoted message said:

The twitchiness of steering is caused by the head angle of your
steering and the 'trail' of the front wheel. Generally a shallow
(less upright) head tube will give a more relaxed steering. Trail or
castor is the distance that the tyre contact point is behind the
point where the steering axis meets the ground. A trail of a 2-4" is
about normal, the less it is the more twitchy. A big curved fork
with a very steep head angle could actually give you zero, or
negative trail, which would be disastrous.

I'll see if I can measure that on my bike when I get a chance. A quick
visual inspection seems to indicate about 4", though. Maybe it's just
the rider... ;-(

Thanks,

David

--

David Trudgett
http://www.zeta.org.au/~wpower/

What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the
homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of
totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?

-- Mohandas Gandhi, "Non-Violence in Peace and War", Navajivan
Publishing, 1948, I-357, cited in Merton, Thomas, "Gandhi on
Non-Violence", New Directions, 1964, p.55.

In article <[email hidden]>,

David Trudgett said:

Quoted message said:

Recumbent. Think of a bicycle.

With three wheels, no?

No. Recumbents come on two-wheel *and* three-wheel incarnations.

--
Shane Stanley

Shane Stanley said:

No. Recumbents come on two-wheel *and* three-wheel incarnations.

My recumbent comes with two pillows, a doona, and four feet.
Theo