SWT bus refuses Brommie

Al C-F said:

What? Like those too pig-headed to share 'their' bus lanes with cyclists?

IMO, there should not be *any* joint bus-cycle lanes. As a concept
they are a bad idea, as they cause the kind of repeated overtaking that
cars generally wouldn't, and they promote lots of interaction between
very large and very small vehicles rather than just all types of
vehicle as a normal lane would.

This could be avoided by having more European-style bus lanes[1], where
the bus lane runs in the centre of the road with crossings at sensible
points, with general traffic and if applicable cycle lanes on the
outside[2]. This also avoids the dangerous situation where people turn
left across the bus lane. (Right turns can be better controlled with
traffic lights and flow lanes).

[1] These mainly originate from tram operation, but it isn't just on
ex-tram routes that you see them.
[2] Layout from left to right: (cycle)-general traffic-bus-bus-general
traffic-(cycle).

Neil

Neil Williams said:

IMO, there should not be *any* joint bus-cycle lanes.

IMO they're lovely - they're a sensible width, the buses keep them free
of debris, and they tend not to do stupid things at junctions quite as
often. It would be nice if (a) there were fewer [censored] taxi drivers
using them, (b) bendy bus drivers actually learn how long their vehicles
are and don't cut back in after overtaking only halfway, and (c) less
diesel, but even with these disadvantages I'd still rather use a bus
lane than a dedicated cycle lane

-dan

--
http://www.coruskate.net/

"John B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

ian henden said:

"John B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Bus driving seems to attract the pig-headed brigade.

OI !!!!

I think you left off the N and the K ;-)

I'll get me coat.

Pigskin, is it??

:o)

IanH

"Daniel Barlow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Neil Williams said:

IMO, there should not be *any* joint bus-cycle lanes.

Agreed wholeheartedly - but that is from a busdrivers POV.

However... from acyclists POV, I can certainly see that a cyclist is
ostensibly safer in a lane that has only buses (and taxis, and private hire
cars, and sundry others who don't think that bus lanes apply to them), than
being obliged to ride *outside* the thick white line, in with general
traffic, but with bus lane users overtaking on the cyclist's inside.... a
much better solution would be the provision of seperate cycle lanes *as
well*...

ian henden said:

"Daniel Barlow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Neil Williams said:

IMO, there should not be *any* joint bus-cycle lanes.

Agreed wholeheartedly - but that is from a busdrivers POV.

However... from acyclists POV, I can certainly see that a cyclist is
ostensibly safer in a lane that has only buses (and taxis, and private hire
cars, and sundry others who don't think that bus lanes apply to them), than
being obliged to ride *outside* the thick white line, in with general
traffic, but with bus lane users overtaking on the cyclist's inside.... a
much better solution would be the provision of seperate cycle lanes *as
well*...

Nooooooooo!

Get rid of bus lanes, cycle lanes, pavements, traffic lanes, lights &
roundabouts. Build all houses on stilts & lay asphalt over every
available surface. Then everyone could walk, cycle, drive, push prams,
jog, play football all together and we would never have any jams or
frustration as we are all equal.

or

Keep things more or less as they are, but stop building those [censored]
ghetto lanes that put cyclists at risk.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

Give your child mental blocks for Christmas.

ian henden said:

However... from acyclists POV, I can certainly see that a cyclist is
ostensibly safer in a lane that has only buses (and taxis, and private hire
cars, and sundry others who don't think that bus lanes apply to them), than
being obliged to ride *outside* the thick white line, in with general
traffic, but with bus lane users overtaking on the cyclist's inside....

Oh, I agree that that is also sub-optimal, which is why I propose the
European style of bus lane, with the bus lanes in the middle of the
road rather than at the edges.

Neil

"Neil Williams" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

ian henden said:

However... from acyclists POV, I can certainly see that a cyclist is
ostensibly safer in a lane that has only buses (and taxis, and private
hire
cars, and sundry others who don't think that bus lanes apply to them),
than
being obliged to ride *outside* the thick white line, in with general
traffic, but with bus lane users overtaking on the cyclist's inside....

Oh, I agree that that is also sub-optimal, which is why I propose the
European style of bus lane, with the bus lanes in the middle of the
road rather than at the edges.

What happens at bus stops? Do the old (Highway Code circa 1946) "Tramcar
Rules" apply? (i.e. if the bus has stopped at a marked stance in the centre
of the road, you may NOT "undertake" it .... you have to wait till it moves
off)?

Could you really envisage the average cycle user observing this?

Quoted message said:

Neil

ian henden said:

What happens at bus stops? Do the old (Highway Code circa 1946) "Tramcar
Rules" apply? (i.e. if the bus has stopped at a marked stance in the
centre of the road, you may NOT "undertake" it .... you have to wait till
it moves off)?

Could you really envisage the average cycle user observing this?

No more than the average motor vehicle user. Unfortunately.
--
Chris

Mosher's Law of Software Engineering:
Don't worry if it doesn't work right. If everything did, you'd
be out of a job.

ian henden said:

Could you really envisage the average cycle user observing this?

To be fair, can you also imagine a UK bus driver waiting behind a
cyclist for them to clear the bus stop rather than overtaking and
cutting in? The Dutch ones seem to manage it.

Because the various road users don't always behave well in such
conflicting situations, the best way seems to be to design out those
kinds of conflict as far as possible, while trying not to cause
inconvenience to those users (e.g., OT for this group, by creating
poorly-designed cycle lanes).

Neil

ian henden said:

What happens at bus stops? Do the old (Highway Code circa 1946) "Tramcar
Rules" apply? (i.e. if the bus has stopped at a marked stance in the centre
of the road, you may NOT "undertake" it .... you have to wait till it moves
off)?

No. Normally those types of stop occur at an intersection, which is a
fairly good place to have one, and they have traffic lights which
automatically change in favour of the bus (first priority) and
pedestrian (second priority so long as it doesn't conflict with the
bus) as required, often operated by way of induction loops triggered by
a bus's presence. If they're not located at an intersection, they
still have the lights but purely for a pedestrian crossing, or in many
cases just a zebra crossing on quieter roads.

Given that, generally speaking, zebra crossings are well-observed in
the UK, certainly compared with France where they seem to be just for
decorative purposes, a zebra crossing would appear to be a reasonable
choice for a UK implementation of such a type of bus stop on most roads
where located away from a light-controlled intersection. This would be
combined with a bus stop "platform" with railings to guide people
towards the zebra rather than them just blindly stepping off the bus
and straight into the traffic flow.

Neil

Neil Williams said:

Given that, generally speaking, zebra crossings are well-observed in
the UK...

Where do you live then, you lucky, lucky person?

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Reply address is valid, but that on my website is checked more often
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Neil Williams said:

ian henden said:

Could you really envisage the average cycle user observing this?

To be fair, can you also imagine a UK bus driver waiting behind a
cyclist for them to clear the bus stop rather than overtaking and
cutting in? The Dutch ones seem to manage it.

Actually I see it quite a bit where I live. Although not all the
drivers are equally considerate.

--
Andy Leighton => [email hidden]
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

Danny Colyer said:

Neil Williams said:

Given that, generally speaking, zebra crossings are well-observed in
the UK...

Where do you live then, you lucky, lucky person?

Milton Keynes, where there is only one such crossing that I can think
of 🙂

Seriously, though, they are *very* well-observed by drivers in most
bits of the UK I've been to compared with France, Germany and the
Netherlands where they are almost 100% ignored.

Neil

On 4 Dec 2006 01:14:41 -0800 someone who may be "Neil Williams"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Seriously, though, they are *very* well-observed by drivers in most
bits of the UK I've been to compared with France, Germany and the
Netherlands where they are almost 100% ignored.

Do such crossings in those countries have the same legal status?

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen said:

Do such crossings in those countries have the same legal status?

I'm actually not sure. Certainly some Dutch drivers seem to respect
them, in contrast to French and German drivers of whom almost 100% do
not. In the UK I would say 80-90% of drivers respect them.

Notably (and don't take this as a dig - this is after all
uk.rec.cycling and I am a cyclist) observance by cyclists is, generally
speaking, the worst in all countries...

Neil

"Neil Williams" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

ian henden said:

Could you really envisage the average cycle user observing this?

To be fair, can you also imagine a UK bus driver waiting behind a
cyclist for them to clear the bus stop rather than overtaking and
cutting in? The Dutch ones seem to manage it.

I'm not Dutch... :o) and so far as am aware have not "cut in"... but a lot
does depend on how far the cyclist is from the stop, how fast he is going,
and how long my bus is.

Quoted message said:

Because the various road users don't always behave well in such
conflicting situations, the best way seems to be to design out those
kinds of conflict as far as possible, while trying not to cause
inconvenience to those users (e.g., OT for this group, by creating
poorly-designed cycle lanes).

Neil

ian henden said:

"Neil Williams" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

ian henden said:

Could you really envisage the average cycle user observing this?

To be fair, can you also imagine a UK bus driver waiting behind a
cyclist for them to clear the bus stop rather than overtaking and
cutting in? The Dutch ones seem to manage it.

I'm not Dutch... :o) and so far as am aware have not "cut in"... but a lot
does depend on how far the cyclist is from the stop, how fast he is going,
and how long my bus is.

It's an exaggeration of course to say that it's unimaginable for a bus
driver to refrain from cutting up a cyclist at a bus stop, and I'm sure
you wouldn't do it, Ian. But it is a depressingly common experience for
anyone who cycles regularly in big cities.

--
Dave...

dkahn400 said:

It's an exaggeration of course to say that it's unimaginable for a bus
driver to refrain from cutting up a cyclist at a bus stop, and I'm sure
you wouldn't do it, Ian. But it is a depressingly common experience for
anyone who cycles regularly in big cities.

Or even not so big cities such as Southampton.
--
Chris

43rd Law of Computing:
Anything that can go wr
Segmentation violation -- Core dumped

Don Whybrow said:

Keep things more or less as they are, but stop building those [censored]
ghetto lanes that put cyclists at risk.

That's the way.

"Chris Slade" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

dkahn400 said:

It's an exaggeration of course to say that it's unimaginable for a bus
driver to refrain from cutting up a cyclist at a bus stop, and I'm sure
you wouldn't do it, Ian. But it is a depressingly common experience for
anyone who cycles regularly in big cities.

Or even not so big cities such as Southampton.
--
Chris

That's OK. then... I do less than 50% of my busdriving in Southampton! :o)