Switching from SPDs to Looks....

Rory said:

I changed to the Look FreeArc pedals + red cleats as I was having some
knee problems on long rides, and thought the pedal float might be the
cause. After using SPD cleats (515s I think - the double exit ones)
which had quite a bit of float anyway, I was suprised at how stiff the
Look's float is - is that normal?

Unfortunately, the floating cleats do work against quite a bit of
friction. I don't like it either. This friction can be reduced by
greasing the pedals and even shaving a thin slice off the black rubber
buffers on cleats. Don't remove them altogether, though.

But, in any case, float action will ease up somewhat as the pedals wear.
By the way, have some Kool Kovers for when you need to walk.

(I'm assuming you're using red cleats, as black cleats result in zero
float; also that float is on '9' setting if you do have an adjustable
model with big knob on back).

~PB

"Rory" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I managed the transistion from clipped to SPD pedals relatively
painlessly, but having just changed to Looks - be warned, a big piece
of shiny plastic doesn't have the same grip on the road as a small
pointy bit of metal. Ouch!

I changed to the Look FreeArc pedals + red cleats as I was having some
knee problems on long rides, and thought the pedal float might be the
cause. After using SPD cleats (515s I think - the double exit ones)
which had quite a bit of float anyway, I was suprised at how stiff the
Look's float is - is that normal?
This is with proper sole-less road shoes: I'd discovered that even
with Shimano shoes with Shimano cleats & pedals you need to hack the
sole away with a knife to stop the sole interferring with float &
twist-exiting...

Generally, the larger platform feels a lot more comfortable than
regular SPD.

I've been wondering about Looks too (due to knee problems) but at the moment
I'm swinging towards the Speedplays (frogs) that are compatable with two
hole SPD shoes. Was there a particular reason you chose Looks?

Frank X wrote:
[in reply to Rory]

Quoted message said:

I've been wondering about Looks too (due to knee problems) but at the
moment I'm swinging towards the Speedplays (frogs) that are
compatable with two hole SPD shoes. Was there a particular reason you
chose Looks?

/My/ reason:
Cheaper, larger platform, release in both directions. Frogs only
release when foot is twisted in one direction (heels outwards, I think) --
which I find a scary prospect for the event of crashes, where feet or bike
could twist in either direction.

~PB

*My* reason is that I was given a pair of Look road shoes as a gift - so I went
out and bought the pedals :-)

Have to say I'm very happy with them.

The other week when the nice Mr Whelan let me have a play on his Trice, the
nice Mrs Whelan let me use a pair of her shoes with spd cleats on - as Pete's
Trice has spd pedals. It took me an age to get clipped into the spds, whereas I
found Look pedals easy to clip into from the start.

Remembering to clip *out* before stopping was "interesting" when I first
started using clipless pedals :-)

Best to invest in a pair of KoolKovers too - makes walking on Look cleats a
doddle and reduces wear on the cleats

Cheers, helen s

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"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank X wrote:
[in reply to Rory]

Quoted message said:

I've been wondering about Looks too (due to knee problems) but at the
moment I'm swinging towards the Speedplays (frogs) that are
compatable with two hole SPD shoes. Was there a particular reason you
chose Looks?

/My/ reason:
Cheaper, larger platform, release in both directions. Frogs only
release when foot is twisted in one direction (heels outwards, I think) --
which I find a scary prospect for the event of crashes, where feet or bike
could twist in either direction.

My current SPDs release only in one direction and I'm happy with that.

What does larger platform mean, is that likely to be better for my knees?

Frank X said:

My current SPDs release only in one direction and I'm happy with that.

What does larger platform mean, is that likely to be better for my knees?

The pedal itself is bigger with an accordingly larger contact point and
lower pressure over it. In practice a fairly stiff sole (as pretty much
any cycling shoe has) will distribute the load quite well in any case so
it's not /that/ much of an issue (maybe if you're Going For It in a big
way), and I don't think it would make any obvious difference to your knees.

Personally, I prefer Time ATACs! They have lateral as well as
rotational float and none of this cleat cover business if you fancy
walking anywhere and no need for pratting about with tension settings.
They seem to have a more positive engagement than SPuDs and are less
affected by cleat wear making it easier to pull out unintentionally.
I've not used Looks, but can do without the tottering around business as
I like clipless for utility work on the freight bike and also off-road
on the MTB where something you can't walk around in easily would be a
liability.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Frank X said:

Quoted message said:

Cheaper, larger platform, release in both directions. Frogs only
release when foot is twisted in one direction (heels outwards, I
think) -- which I find a scary prospect for the event of crashes,
where feet or bike could twist in either direction.

My current SPDs release only in one direction and I'm happy with that.

Are you sure? I thought all SPDs can release by twisting inwards as well
as outwards, even if that feels unnatural and more force is required. I
think some multi-directional versions also release simply by pulling
upwards -- that's not what I mean.

But in any case, you may be perfectly happy in normal use with
one-direction but you won't always have the opportunity to deliberately
twist feet in a crash. Getting stuck to the bike or tangled up in it can
result in greater injury. I know of one case where a rider seriously
injured his leg because of this problem. The rider or the bike tends to
twist to one side naturally during a fall but it can be to either side!

Quoted message said:

What does larger platform mean,

Simply that the pedal is larger, with a larger area for the cleat to
contact. This just tends to feel more comfortable efficient, even I find
with extremely rigid soles (which doesn't make sense according to the
theories but seems to be the case in reality with me).

Quoted message said:

is that likely to be better for my knees?

I don't think so. That's where the large amount of float of Speedplays
could indeed help you, although Look pedals provide up to 9 degrees* which
is quite a lot. You get about 5 degrees with SPD. Time pedals also have
more float than SPD--another option for you to consider: I think they have
models compatible with SPD shoes.

* albeit with quite some friction with standard setup, but this can be
vastly improved with grease and altering cleat rubber thingy (please see
other reply).

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Frank X said:

What does larger platform mean,

Simply that the pedal is larger, with a larger area for the cleat to
contact. This just tends to feel more comfortable efficient, even I
find with extremely rigid soles (which doesn't make sense according
to the theories but seems to be the case in reality with me).

ps. Laregr pedal also helps with clipping in as you've got a larger
target to aim for, although that's only half the story. Orientation of
pedal* and exact design of mechanism being the other half. (Frogs are
easy to get into, apparently).

Look PP pedals always point in the same useful direction before feet are
on them because of their weighting.

~PB

"Frank X" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank X wrote:
[in reply to Rory]

Quoted message said:

I've been wondering about Looks too (due to knee problems) but at the
moment I'm swinging towards the Speedplays (frogs) that are
compatable with two hole SPD shoes. Was there a particular reason you
chose Looks?

/My/ reason:
Cheaper, larger platform, release in both directions. Frogs only
release when foot is twisted in one direction (heels outwards, I think) --
which I find a scary prospect for the event of crashes, where feet or bike
could twist in either direction.

My current SPDs release only in one direction and I'm happy with that.

What does larger platform mean, is that likely to be better for my knees?

I changed to red Looks last year and have had no knee problems so far
this year, amazing how off centre your feet pedal once you allow them
to, the left hand heel more or less rubs the crank now whereas it was
an inch away with black cleats.

MartinM said:

"Frank X" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank X wrote:
[in reply to Rory]

>I've been wondering about Looks too (due to knee problems) but at the
>moment I'm swinging towards the Speedplays (frogs) that are
>compatable with two hole SPD shoes. Was there a particular reason you
>chose Looks?

/My/ reason:
Cheaper, larger platform, release in both directions. Frogs only
release when foot is twisted in one direction (heels outwards, I think) --
which I find a scary prospect for the event of crashes, where feet or bike
could twist in either direction.

My current SPDs release only in one direction and I'm happy with that.

What does larger platform mean, is that likely to be better for my knees?

I changed to red Looks last year and have had no knee problems so far
this year, amazing how off centre your feet pedal once you allow them
to, the left hand heel more or less rubs the crank now whereas it was
an inch away with black cleats.

I find something similar, and it's not the same for both feet either -
they tend to sit at different angles and on slightly different places on
the pedals. I'm sure this'll make it interesting once I actually put
the spd's on the bike rather than current platforms/toecups.

--

Velvet

Velvet said:

I find something similar, and it's not the same for both feet either -
they tend to sit at different angles and on slightly different places on
the pedals. I'm sure this'll make it interesting once I actually put
the spd's on the bike rather than current platforms/toecups.

SPuDs don't give you lateral float, so unless I've had a Brain Failure
(quite possible, this time on a Friday with a weekend of server upgrades
ahead) any difference in basic foot location on the pedal itself will be
a result of the cleats being in different locations on each foot.
Many SPuD shoes have sliders built in to the anchor plates so you can
tune the position, so this would be entirely possible.

As for the "make it interesting" bit, I rather doubt it. As long as
your feet end up where it seems natural for them to do so it probably
won't make any real difference at all in practice.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Velvet said:

I find something similar, and it's not the same for both feet either -
they tend to sit at different angles and on slightly different places
on the pedals. I'm sure this'll make it interesting once I actually
put the spd's on the bike rather than current platforms/toecups.

SPuDs don't give you lateral float, so unless I've had a Brain Failure
(quite possible, this time on a Friday with a weekend of server upgrades
ahead) any difference in basic foot location on the pedal itself will be
a result of the cleats being in different locations on each foot.
Many SPuD shoes have sliders built in to the anchor plates so you can
tune the position, so this would be entirely possible.

As for the "make it interesting" bit, I rather doubt it. As long as
your feet end up where it seems natural for them to do so it probably
won't make any real difference at all in practice.

Pete.

Indeed - I meant the sheer amount of time spent fine-tuning the relative
positions of cleats on shoes to get the foot angle right :-)

I've already discovered how NOT to find out where that is... by leaving
the cleats loose... despite having read endless times the 'thou shalt
tighten the cleats FULLY to the shoes' mantra...

I am now accomplished at removing shoes from cleats and cleats from
pedals (in that order), unfortunately.

--

Velvet

Velvet said:

Indeed - I meant the sheer amount of time spent fine-tuning the relative
positions of cleats on shoes to get the foot angle right :-)

The pedal should have a reasonable degree of /rotational/ float (if I'm
remembering my SPuDs properly), so your foot can sit wherever it wants
to as far as angle of dangle is concerned. As long as it isn't really
skewed it should be fine, and the only problem with really skewed is you
might not get out (as you know...).

So you should only need to get them matched front/back on each shoe, and
let the rotational float take up any slack. Not too much time needed in
this case.

Top Tip for the bolts that screw the cleats in, and that's put a little
PTFE grease on the threads before you put them in. IME it makes getting
them tight enough for the cleat to stop moving about much easier, and
it's easier to undo them come replacement time as well.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Velvet said:

Indeed - I meant the sheer amount of time spent fine-tuning the
relative positions of cleats on shoes to get the foot angle right :-)

The pedal should have a reasonable degree of /rotational/ float (if I'm
remembering my SPuDs properly), so your foot can sit wherever it wants
to as far as angle of dangle is concerned. As long as it isn't really
skewed it should be fine, and the only problem with really skewed is you
might not get out (as you know...).

So you should only need to get them matched front/back on each shoe, and
let the rotational float take up any slack. Not too much time needed in
this case.

Top Tip for the bolts that screw the cleats in, and that's put a little
PTFE grease on the threads before you put them in. IME it makes getting
them tight enough for the cleat to stop moving about much easier, and
it's easier to undo them come replacement time as well.

Pete.

Ah, ta for the tip. I might be making use of that before the summer's
over, the way I'm going... (yay!) - when I have a good ride it's now
REALLY good, and I almost feel ready for spds. Still having some bad
ones though, so I know it's not *quite* the right time...

*And* I still have to learn the signalling. Which really should be done
before the spds go on, I think.

--

Velvet

Peter Clinch said:

Personally, I prefer Time ATACs! They have lateral as well as
rotational float and none of this cleat cover business if you fancy
walking anywhere and no need for pratting about with tension settings.
They seem to have a more positive engagement than SPuDs and are less
affected by cleat wear making it easier to pull out unintentionally.
I've not used Looks, but can do without the tottering around business
as
I like clipless for utility work on the freight bike and also off-road
on the MTB where something you can't walk around in easily would be a
liability.

The difference between Looks and Time ATACs in HUGE. In terms of positive
feel of the interface between the pedal and the shoe, Looks are unmatched --
great fun. I use ATACs for my hack bike, but going back to them after Looks,
they feel a bit flaky. I've not tried Shimano road SPDs but I have tried the
off-road version, and they are not as good as ATACs.

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank X said:

Quoted message said:

Cheaper, larger platform, release in both directions. Frogs only
release when foot is twisted in one direction (heels outwards, I
think) -- which I find a scary prospect for the event of crashes,
where feet or bike could twist in either direction.

My current SPDs release only in one direction and I'm happy with that.

Are you sure? I thought all SPDs can release by twisting inwards as well
as outwards, even if that feels unnatural and more force is required. I
think some multi-directional versions also release simply by pulling
upwards -- that's not what I mean.

Your right, it does come off both ways.

Quoted message said:

But in any case, you may be perfectly happy in normal use with
one-direction but you won't always have the opportunity to deliberately
twist feet in a crash. Getting stuck to the bike or tangled up in it can
result in greater injury. I know of one case where a rider seriously
injured his leg because of this problem. The rider or the bike tends to
twist to one side naturally during a fall but it can be to either side!

I did understand what you meant and it is important to me, hard to tell how
important with out trying though :o(.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What does larger platform mean,

Simply that the pedal is larger, with a larger area for the cleat to
contact. This just tends to feel more comfortable efficient, even I find
with extremely rigid soles (which doesn't make sense according to the
theories but seems to be the case in reality with me).

Quoted message said:

is that likely to be better for my knees?

I don't think so. That's where the large amount of float of Speedplays
could indeed help you, although Look pedals provide up to 9 degrees* which
is quite a lot. You get about 5 degrees with SPD. Time pedals also have
more float than SPD--another option for you to consider: I think they have
models compatible with SPD shoes.

Thanks, I think I'll go with the Speedplays for the extra float and because
they are recessed cleats.

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank X wrote:

Quoted message said:

Personally, I prefer Time ATACs! They have lateral as well as rotational
float and none of this cleat cover business if you fancy walking anywhere
and no need for pratting about with tension settings. They seem to have a
more positive engagement than SPuDs and are less affected by cleat wear
making it easier to pull out unintentionally. I've not used Looks, but can
do without the tottering around business as I like clipless for utility
work on the freight bike and also off-road on the MTB where something you
can't walk around in easily would be a liability.

How are they on the knees?, If it wasn't for my knees I would say SPiDs are
perfect.

And do they fit two hole SPD shoes. I can't imagine life without my sandals.

Frank X said:

How are they on the knees?, If it wasn't for my knees I would say SPiDs are
perfect.

I can't speak for your particular knees, of course, but the fact that
they have lateral as well as rotational float (that is your foot can
slide a little sideways without rotating) means you've probably got the
best chance going of knee compatibility.

Quoted message said:

And do they fit two hole SPD shoes. I can't imagine life without my sandals.

Yes, I use Shimano SD-60 sandals on my ATACs

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Frank X" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Frank X wrote:

Quoted message said:

Personally, I prefer Time ATACs! They have lateral as well as

rotational

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

float and none of this cleat cover business if you fancy walking

anywhere

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and no need for pratting about with tension settings. They seem to have

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more positive engagement than SPuDs and are less affected by cleat wear
making it easier to pull out unintentionally. I've not used Looks, but

can

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

do without the tottering around business as I like clipless for utility
work on the freight bike and also off-road on the MTB where something

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can't walk around in easily would be a liability.

How are they on the knees?, If it wasn't for my knees I would say SPiDs

are

Quoted message said:

perfect.

And do they fit two hole SPD shoes. I can't imagine life without my

sandals.

I do have a knee that is prone to problems and I tried Time ATACS last year
as my first clipless pedal. I immediately suffered a dull ache in the knee
after (not during) rides of only 5-10 miles. As I was heading off on tour I
reverted to toeclips until this Spring.
This time I was more careful with my positioning of the cleat. I took
someone's advice from this group and made a note of how my foot was angled
when I used toeclips and also when hanging down with me sitting on a ledge.
I then tried to replicate this angle with the cleat, which involved pushing
it to the limit of its range on my shoes.
It worked this time and I'm now I'm happily cliplesss. The shoes are Shimano
TO-70s so they're compatable with these SPD shoes at least.
Of course, I've only tried these pedals and everybody's knees are not the
same.
HTH,

tony R.