Swimming on side? Newbie

I've been teaching myself to front crawl, and have been working on a
lot of the techniques used in the total immersion book, simply because
it seemed like a good way to start from scratch. I'm not a TI junkie,
but it seems to have worked for me. However I wasn't quite getting
breathing right so enrolled on some lessons.

The instructor doesn't like me roling my body to breathe, he wants me
to swim flat and just turn my head. When he made us swim without
breathing however he said he was really impressed with my stroke :-)
The thing is, it feels really wrong to just turn my head, I've got used
to rolling now and if I turn my head alone I have to lift it and them
my legs sink and it just all goes wrong.

I just wondered, what to most of you do? Am I just bizarre because I
turn my body to breathe - do "normal swimmers" swim flat? Or I am
worrying about the science of swimming too much and should I just do
what works for me? At the moment, the TI principles I use are making a
lot more sense than my teacher. Hmmm?

Quoted message said:

I've been teaching myself to front crawl, and have been working on a
lot of the techniques used in the total immersion book, simply because
it seemed like a good way to start from scratch. I'm not a TI junkie,
but it seems to have worked for me. However I wasn't quite getting
breathing right so enrolled on some lessons.

The instructor doesn't like me roling my body to breathe, he wants me
to swim flat and just turn my head. When he made us swim without
breathing however he said he was really impressed with my stroke :-)
The thing is, it feels really wrong to just turn my head, I've got used
to rolling now and if I turn my head alone I have to lift it and them
my legs sink and it just all goes wrong.

I just wondered, what to most of you do? Am I just bizarre because I
turn my body to breathe - do "normal swimmers" swim flat? Or I am
worrying about the science of swimming too much and should I just do
what works for me? At the moment, the TI principles I use are making a
lot more sense than my teacher. Hmmm?

Did he say "Swim flat," or did he say "Turn your head."? The body roll
doesn't obviate the need for a head turn. Have you misinterpreted the
body roll to mean there is no head turn?

Quoted message said:

I've been teaching myself to front crawl, and have been working on a
lot of the techniques used in the total immersion book, simply because
it seemed like a good way to start from scratch. I'm not a TI junkie,
but it seems to have worked for me. However I wasn't quite getting
breathing right so enrolled on some lessons.

The instructor doesn't like me roling my body to breathe, he wants me
to swim flat and just turn my head. When he made us swim without
breathing however he said he was really impressed with my stroke :-)
The thing is, it feels really wrong to just turn my head, I've got used
to rolling now and if I turn my head alone I have to lift it and them
my legs sink and it just all goes wrong.

I just wondered, what to most of you do? Am I just bizarre because I
turn my body to breathe - do "normal swimmers" swim flat? Or I am
worrying about the science of swimming too much and should I just do
what works for me? At the moment, the TI principles I use are making a
lot more sense than my teacher. Hmmm?

Did he say "Swim flat," or did he say "Turn your head."? The body roll
doesn't obviate the need for a head turn. Have you misinterpreted the
body roll to mean there is no head turn?

He said "You're turning your body when you breathe. Keep your body
still and just turn your head to breathe."

At the moment I try and turn both head and body, so try to 'swim on my
side' and also turn head to shoulder, so face almost facing ceiling.
Probably makes me look like I am swimming like an owl.

He said "You're turning your body when you breathe. Keep your body
still and just turn your head to breathe."

At the moment I try and turn both head and body, so try to 'swim on my
side' and also turn head to shoulder, so face almost facing ceiling.
Probably makes me look like I am swimming like an owl.

Most good swimmers at least roll their torso, which makes it easier to
breathe and gets their recovering arm and shoulder out of the water. I
used to watch a guy swimming flat, and he shouldered and elbowed so
much water forward with the last part of his recovery and his hand
entry that he almost stopped and started again with each stroke.

Most good swimmers at least roll their torso, which makes it easier to
breathe and gets their recovering arm and shoulder out of the water. I
used to watch a guy swimming flat, and he shouldered and elbowed so
much water forward with the last part of his recovery and his hand
entry that he almost stopped and started again with each stroke.

Quoted message said:

He said "You're turning your body when you breathe. Keep your body
still and just turn your head to breathe."

ok, he's wrong. Unless he is trying to stop you from rolling too much
and he just isn't telling you what the real problem is, keep rolling.

Quoted message said:

At the moment I try and turn both head and body, so try to 'swim on my
side' and also turn head to shoulder, so face almost facing ceiling.
Probably makes me look like I am swimming like an owl.

Yes, that sounds like there is either too much roll, two much head
turn, or both. Your head need never turn past facing the side.

When you are really swimming fast, your body creates a small trough so
you can actually breath with your mouth seemingly below the water
level. don't concern yourself with that, though. Coordinate your roll
and head turn so that you are never looking higher than straight
across the pool surface.

Quoted message said:

He said "You're turning your body when you breathe. Keep your body
still and just turn your head to breathe."

ok, he's wrong. Unless he is trying to stop you from rolling too much
and he just isn't telling you what the real problem is, keep rolling.

Quoted message said:

At the moment I try and turn both head and body, so try to 'swim on my
side' and also turn head to shoulder, so face almost facing ceiling.
Probably makes me look like I am swimming like an owl.

Yes, that sounds like there is either too much roll, two much head
turn, or both. Your head need never turn past facing the side.

When you are really swimming fast, your body creates a small trough so
you can actually breath with your mouth seemingly below the water
level. don't concern yourself with that, though. Coordinate your roll
and head turn so that you are never looking higher than straight
across the pool surface.

Yeah, maybe I am rolling too much. I think its in an attempt to do the
roll and also to stop me inhaling water - which is the whole breathing
problem. I'm off to the pool now - ahhhh the joys of days off in the
week thanks to shift work - so anyway I'll try and do what you both
suggest and work out what I usually do. I'll have a play anyway.

Yeah, maybe I am rolling too much. I think its in an attempt to do the
roll and also to stop me inhaling water - which is the whole breathing
problem. I'm off to the pool now - ahhhh the joys of days off in the
week thanks to shift work - so anyway I'll try and do what you both
suggest and work out what I usually do. I'll have a play anyway.

Quoted message said:

Yeah, maybe I am rolling too much. I think its in an attempt to do the
roll and also to stop me inhaling water - which is the whole breathing
problem.

TI is built on exaggerated, didactic drills.

The TI drills use an exaggerated body roll and head turn so you can
concentrate on longitudinal balance without worrying about getting air.

They also use an exaggerated catchup drill to make you spend time
on an effective reach and catch, what they call anchoring.

As you perfect balance, you will learn to breathe to the side, in the
little
trough behind your bow wave, and you may only rotate your torso 45
degrees each way instead of the full 90 degrees required by the drill.

You will also lose the catchup timing as you learn to make a good
catch while swimming faster.

At that point, your instructor will probably say you are swimming
"flat"
enough.

Quoted message said:

Yeah, maybe I am rolling too much. I think its in an attempt to do the
roll and also to stop me inhaling water - which is the whole breathing
problem.

TI is built on exaggerated, didactic drills.

The TI drills use an exaggerated body roll and head turn so you can
concentrate on longitudinal balance without worrying about getting air.

They also use an exaggerated catchup drill to make you spend time
on an effective reach and catch, what they call anchoring.

As you perfect balance, you will learn to breathe to the side, in the
little
trough behind your bow wave, and you may only rotate your torso 45
degrees each way instead of the full 90 degrees required by the drill.

You will also lose the catchup timing as you learn to make a good
catch while swimming faster.

At that point, your instructor will probably say you are swimming
"flat"
enough.

Body roll is important. Think of an axis going through your head and
comming out through your butt (that sounds nasty). Your body rotates
along that axis. what you are doing on each side is lifting your
shoulder first. that brings your elbow and arm out. If you let your
head turn gently with your shoulder, you'll be able to take a breath.
In theory, if you relax and let your head rotate with both shoulders,
you should be able to breath on both sides.

Usually, since we have dominance on one side, it is easier to breath on
the dominant one. Body roll is important because we get more reach and
more depth. Try to roll your body, not to lift your head, but to get
your arm to reach forward as much as possible. In othe words, on one
side, you shoulder comes out of the water. On the other side, your
shoulder extends forward and and tries to reach past your ear. Even if
you keep your head under water and you don't take a breath, you should
notice your head rolling towards ths shoulder that exits the water.
Breathing is a matter of lifting your head just a tad more. Good luck,

Andres

Quoted message said:

I've been teaching myself to front crawl, and have been working on a
lot of the techniques used in the total immersion book, simply because
it seemed like a good way to start from scratch. I'm not a TI junkie,
but it seems to have worked for me. However I wasn't quite getting
breathing right so enrolled on some lessons.

The instructor doesn't like me roling my body to breathe, he wants me
to swim flat and just turn my head. When he made us swim without
breathing however he said he was really impressed with my stroke :-)
The thing is, it feels really wrong to just turn my head, I've got used
to rolling now and if I turn my head alone I have to lift it and them
my legs sink and it just all goes wrong.

I just wondered, what to most of you do? Am I just bizarre because I
turn my body to breathe - do "normal swimmers" swim flat? Or I am
worrying about the science of swimming too much and should I just do
what works for me? At the moment, the TI principles I use are making a
lot more sense than my teacher. Hmmm?

Body roll is important. Think of an axis going through your head and
comming out through your butt (that sounds nasty). Your body rotates
along that axis. what you are doing on each side is lifting your
shoulder first. that brings your elbow and arm out. If you let your
head turn gently with your shoulder, you'll be able to take a breath.
In theory, if you relax and let your head rotate with both shoulders,
you should be able to breath on both sides.

Usually, since we have dominance on one side, it is easier to breath on
the dominant one. Body roll is important because we get more reach and
more depth. Try to roll your body, not to lift your head, but to get
your arm to reach forward as much as possible. In othe words, on one
side, you shoulder comes out of the water. On the other side, your
shoulder extends forward and and tries to reach past your ear. Even if
you keep your head under water and you don't take a breath, you should
notice your head rolling towards ths shoulder that exits the water.
Breathing is a matter of lifting your head just a tad more. Good luck,

Andres

Quoted message said:

I've been teaching myself to front crawl, and have been working on a
lot of the techniques used in the total immersion book, simply because
it seemed like a good way to start from scratch. I'm not a TI junkie,
but it seems to have worked for me. However I wasn't quite getting
breathing right so enrolled on some lessons.

The instructor doesn't like me roling my body to breathe, he wants me
to swim flat and just turn my head. When he made us swim without
breathing however he said he was really impressed with my stroke :-)
The thing is, it feels really wrong to just turn my head, I've got used
to rolling now and if I turn my head alone I have to lift it and them
my legs sink and it just all goes wrong.

I just wondered, what to most of you do? Am I just bizarre because I
turn my body to breathe - do "normal swimmers" swim flat? Or I am
worrying about the science of swimming too much and should I just do
what works for me? At the moment, the TI principles I use are making a
lot more sense than my teacher. Hmmm?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been teaching myself to front crawl, and have been working on a
lot of the techniques used in the total immersion book, simply because
it seemed like a good way to start from scratch. I'm not a TI junkie,
but it seems to have worked for me. However I wasn't quite getting
breathing right so enrolled on some lessons.

The instructor doesn't like me roling my body to breathe, he wants me
to swim flat and just turn my head. When he made us swim without
breathing however he said he was really impressed with my stroke :-)
The thing is, it feels really wrong to just turn my head, I've got used
to rolling now and if I turn my head alone I have to lift it and them
my legs sink and it just all goes wrong.

I just wondered, what to most of you do? Am I just bizarre because I
turn my body to breathe - do "normal swimmers" swim flat? Or I am
worrying about the science of swimming too much and should I just do
what works for me? At the moment, the TI principles I use are making a
lot more sense than my teacher. Hmmm?

First off, there are (at least) four possible things going on here:

a) you really are rolling an excessive amount, and the instructor is telling
you to "swim flat" in order, not to actually make you swim without any
rolling, but merely to reduce it. This is unlikely - see below.

b) you are doing something else that the instructor feels is incorrect, and
he thinks that
i. it is somehow connected to the rolling that you are doing
ii. by getting you to reduce the rolling the other element will also be
corrected
(this method of indirect stroke work is more often used, and more often
effective, than beginners might realise)

c) there is some kind of mis-communication in the string of concepts and
words that (should) flow thusly:

i. instructor's knowledge and conception of stroke mechanics
ii. instructor's estimation of pupil's physical capabilities
iii. instructor's evaluation of pupil's current stroke mechanics
iv. instructor's choice of most valuable characteristic of pupil's
stroke to change (and in what way)
v. instructor's use of words, actions, drawings, examples, etcetera, to
transmit iv. to pupil
vi. pupil's comprehension of those words, actions, drawings, etcetera
vii. pupil's understanding of his/her own stroke mechanics and how vi.
would apply

d) the instructor indeed attempting to get you to swim without any rolling
at all. This is, unfortunately, _not_ unlikely.

Secondly, you should realise that swimming and the coaching of swimming are
ARTS. This is due to the very large number of variables that must be
considered when attempting to "improve" a person's swimming. As such, there
will be some (many) choices made; there may be more than one optimum, and
there may be more than one way to achieve any of those multiple optima.
There is no ideal way of swimming, no ideal stroke, no ideal body shape, and
there are no ideal methods of coaching.

Thirdly, YOU are ultimately responsible for evaluating your own success.
There will be, of course, many aids and guides available to you; but you
must choose among them, for you cannot follow them all. There are questions
that may help you in these choices:

a) how long has the method, or teacher/coach, been used?
b) what amount of satisfaction/success has been felt by other pupils?
c) what degree of respect does the method/teacher/coach enjoy from other
teachers/coaches?
d) what is your personal reaction to the method/teacher/coach?

And fourth, to the subject of rolling (and I will assume you are referring
to Front Crawl, although rolling is also a consideration in Back Crawl)...

All good swimmers roll. Rolling has been a part of Front Crawl swimming for
over 70 years. Some roll more than others - it depends on some of that
large number of variables referred to above.

Various estimates in the literature generally give a value around of 90
degrees or more - you can see successive photographs of this on pages 51 and
53 of Spiz's book. Rolling is an advantage to

a) speed - a rolled body shape has less resistance
b) propulsion - a rolled body places larger muscles in a better position to
exert force on the water
c) breathing - a rolled body makes it easier to turn the mouth into the air.

It is difficult to roll too much. Some good swimmers may roll as much as 60
degrees to one side, especially if they are a favourite-side breather with a
pronounced asymmetrical timing.

Finally fifth: a caveat. No one here has seen you swim. The information
you get here will come from a variety of sources, and you should consider
how likely they are to have any relation to the truth, or to your swimming.

You should do some more research; there are good texts on swimming, by such
famed authors as Counsilman, Maglischo, Colwin, Spitz, etcetera. If you
read them, not only will you discover much information about rolling, but a
host of other elements. As well, you will be ahead of many of the people
who would tell you what to do. There is a prominent example here on this
newsgroup, for example, who has never read any of those books; yet is happy
to spout opinion, unsubstantiated conjecture, personal abuse, and blatant
falsehoods - and call them all truth. Beware.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been teaching myself to front crawl, and have been working on a
lot of the techniques used in the total immersion book, simply because
it seemed like a good way to start from scratch. I'm not a TI junkie,
but it seems to have worked for me. However I wasn't quite getting
breathing right so enrolled on some lessons.

The instructor doesn't like me roling my body to breathe, he wants me
to swim flat and just turn my head. When he made us swim without
breathing however he said he was really impressed with my stroke :-)
The thing is, it feels really wrong to just turn my head, I've got used
to rolling now and if I turn my head alone I have to lift it and them
my legs sink and it just all goes wrong.

I just wondered, what to most of you do? Am I just bizarre because I
turn my body to breathe - do "normal swimmers" swim flat? Or I am
worrying about the science of swimming too much and should I just do
what works for me? At the moment, the TI principles I use are making a
lot more sense than my teacher. Hmmm?

First off, there are (at least) four possible things going on here:

a) you really are rolling an excessive amount, and the instructor is telling
you to "swim flat" in order, not to actually make you swim without any
rolling, but merely to reduce it. This is unlikely - see below.

b) you are doing something else that the instructor feels is incorrect, and
he thinks that
i. it is somehow connected to the rolling that you are doing
ii. by getting you to reduce the rolling the other element will also be
corrected
(this method of indirect stroke work is more often used, and more often
effective, than beginners might realise)

c) there is some kind of mis-communication in the string of concepts and
words that (should) flow thusly:

i. instructor's knowledge and conception of stroke mechanics
ii. instructor's estimation of pupil's physical capabilities
iii. instructor's evaluation of pupil's current stroke mechanics
iv. instructor's choice of most valuable characteristic of pupil's
stroke to change (and in what way)
v. instructor's use of words, actions, drawings, examples, etcetera, to
transmit iv. to pupil
vi. pupil's comprehension of those words, actions, drawings, etcetera
vii. pupil's understanding of his/her own stroke mechanics and how vi.
would apply

d) the instructor indeed attempting to get you to swim without any rolling
at all. This is, unfortunately, _not_ unlikely.

Secondly, you should realise that swimming and the coaching of swimming are
ARTS. This is due to the very large number of variables that must be
considered when attempting to "improve" a person's swimming. As such, there
will be some (many) choices made; there may be more than one optimum, and
there may be more than one way to achieve any of those multiple optima.
There is no ideal way of swimming, no ideal stroke, no ideal body shape, and
there are no ideal methods of coaching.

Thirdly, YOU are ultimately responsible for evaluating your own success.
There will be, of course, many aids and guides available to you; but you
must choose among them, for you cannot follow them all. There are questions
that may help you in these choices:

a) how long has the method, or teacher/coach, been used?
b) what amount of satisfaction/success has been felt by other pupils?
c) what degree of respect does the method/teacher/coach enjoy from other
teachers/coaches?
d) what is your personal reaction to the method/teacher/coach?

And fourth, to the subject of rolling (and I will assume you are referring
to Front Crawl, although rolling is also a consideration in Back Crawl)...

All good swimmers roll. Rolling has been a part of Front Crawl swimming for
over 70 years. Some roll more than others - it depends on some of that
large number of variables referred to above.

Various estimates in the literature generally give a value around of 90
degrees or more - you can see successive photographs of this on pages 51 and
53 of Spiz's book. Rolling is an advantage to

a) speed - a rolled body shape has less resistance
b) propulsion - a rolled body places larger muscles in a better position to
exert force on the water
c) breathing - a rolled body makes it easier to turn the mouth into the air.

It is difficult to roll too much. Some good swimmers may roll as much as 60
degrees to one side, especially if they are a favourite-side breather with a
pronounced asymmetrical timing.

Finally fifth: a caveat. No one here has seen you swim. The information
you get here will come from a variety of sources, and you should consider
how likely they are to have any relation to the truth, or to your swimming.

You should do some more research; there are good texts on swimming, by such
famed authors as Counsilman, Maglischo, Colwin, Spitz, etcetera. If you
read them, not only will you discover much information about rolling, but a
host of other elements. As well, you will be ahead of many of the people
who would tell you what to do. There is a prominent example here on this
newsgroup, for example, who has never read any of those books; yet is happy
to spout opinion, unsubstantiated conjecture, personal abuse, and blatant
falsehoods - and call them all truth. Beware.

Back from the pool. I don't think I roll excessively; yes there is some
roll but I am not swimming on my side, I probably go maximum 30 degrees
from horizontal. I think you could be right about the assymetry, I can
only breathe well to the left at the moment (the instructor thinks this
is weird as I am right-handed, but I'm not bothered) and I think I do
tend to roll more when breathing. Maybe its this that he thinks is
excessive, rather than the natural roll. Like I said, when I swim
without breathing (but still with a natural roll) he said he was
impressed with my stroke.

Not sure what I reckon to him personally, apparently he's new and the
rest of the class think he's ok, but just ok. I guess its difficult for
me as I've never had a swim teacher before, so don't know what to
expect, I grew up with a bit of a phobia of physical activity and still
think sporty people are quite scary (mainly as up til recently, I've
been useless - but am improving generally now!) He is very very very
keen on kickboard drills, maybe I've read TI too much but I just found
them dull and I felt like my whole position in the water was wrong with
one.

Will try and reduce any exaggerated roll when breathing - see if that's
what he wants?

Back from the pool. I don't think I roll excessively; yes there is some
roll but I am not swimming on my side, I probably go maximum 30 degrees
from horizontal. I think you could be right about the assymetry, I can
only breathe well to the left at the moment (the instructor thinks this
is weird as I am right-handed, but I'm not bothered) and I think I do
tend to roll more when breathing. Maybe its this that he thinks is
excessive, rather than the natural roll. Like I said, when I swim
without breathing (but still with a natural roll) he said he was
impressed with my stroke.

Not sure what I reckon to him personally, apparently he's new and the
rest of the class think he's ok, but just ok. I guess its difficult for
me as I've never had a swim teacher before, so don't know what to
expect, I grew up with a bit of a phobia of physical activity and still
think sporty people are quite scary (mainly as up til recently, I've
been useless - but am improving generally now!) He is very very very
keen on kickboard drills, maybe I've read TI too much but I just found
them dull and I felt like my whole position in the water was wrong with
one.

Will try and reduce any exaggerated roll when breathing - see if that's
what he wants?