SUV question

No, you can't drive mine.

--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia ramsays-online.comramsays-online.comOpen ↗

"Chris Phillipo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Actually I can't find a peice of paperwork that refers to my 1993 4 runner as an SUV so since I
drive a truck I guess I'm spared the wrath of the thrifty ones.

I found data back to 2000 on the EPA site that lists the 2000 4 Runner as an SUV. Probably applies
to earlier models.

epa.govsuv 00.htmOpen ↗

Zippy the Pinhead <[email hidden]> wrote:
: Hello.
[...]
: I also drive an SUV. A Ford Explorer. Why? Well, I don't test-drive cars,
[...]
: The politics of all this really amuses me. The guy in the big van who parks in the handicapped
: space is driving alone, and he's burning every bit as much gas as me, but my abnormal size doesn't
: cut any [censored] when it comes to convincing folks that I need to drive the car I drive. His
: wheelchair isn't something I'd want, but he gets a pass. The soccer mom parking at Marshall Fields
: drove in alone, but she's probably a staunch Democrap because she's got an NPR sticker on her
: bumper, so she's safe too. But I'm some kind of an eco-terrorist because I drive an SUV. Total
: strangers feel entitled to give me a piece of their mind about it.

If it makes you feel better: I don't give any auto owner a break. Certainly not based on their
politics. It's very simple my ire over an auto owners actions correlates directly with how much
poison they force me to inhale. Party affiliation, demographics, or disability has nothing to do
with it. SUV verssus econobox hybrid - the hybrid is poisoning me less. The person who uses the
bicycle over the auto at least some of the time is poisoning me less.

As far as people 'giving a piece of their mind': unless you are referring to anecdotal experiences
rather than this newsgroup I think it comes under fair use. You should expect some things [like
wrangles over headphones, bikelanes, helmets etc] in a newsgroup such as this. [...]
: Until and unless the dipshits who design cars come to the awful realization that we can't all be
: built like Tom Daschle, I'll continue to drive my SUV, and all of you automotive fascists can go
: [censored] up a rope, [censored] you very much.

Look up: 'externality', 'public good', 'tragedy of the common'. Hell, look up: 'being a member of
a society'.

--
'People think I'm insane because I am frowning all the time All day long I think of things
but nothing seems to satisfy' 'Make a joke and I will sigh And you will laugh and I will
cry' -Black Sabbath

Chris Phillipo said:

I would venture to guess that the only people who buy a car that meets their minimum needs do so
because they can't afford anything better.

Jon has pointed out that it's not true for him. It's not true for me, either. In fact, I know (and
have known) quite a few people for whom that statement is not true.

But then, my friends tend to be much more intelligent, and much less materialistic, than average. I
suppose that makes a difference.

Quoted message said:

People in general don't buy a car like it's an appliance, they buy it like they are shopping for a
big screen TV ...

I suppose that's true. Then there are those of us who wonder - why on earth would someone spend
thousands of dollars to watch a big TV? What a weird way to waste time!

--
Frank Krygowski [email hidden]

Stephen Harding said:

The prefered, "responsible" solution is to purchase a Geo Metro with a mini trailer. Haul the load
in 500 pound increments on this trailer.

Yes this will make for 17 separate trips, but unless you make this trip very frequently, this is
the method you should use.

Nope. Get a bigger trailer.

Quoted message said:

Oh, and don't forget to have three or four of your friends in the Metro with you, since you'll
open yourself to justifiable redicule if you go it alone.

We'll give him a break. If he has only two friends along, that'll be OK. ;-)

--
Frank Krygowski [email hidden]

Stephen Harding said:

I think you are being overly negative, or misinformed on the capabilities of SUVs as a group.

They are popular for a number of reasons, but one being that they are genuinely quite capable
vehicles. They can carry quite a bit AND get through snow or back country AND ride smooth and
quiet AND be fun to drive.

... Tire choice and 4WD/AWD selections can be very important to good performance. And yes, you can
greatly improve the slippery road performance of your economy car with just a set of snow tires, at
much reduced cost.

But you are not likely going to get the same COMBINATION of capabilities that the SUV offers.

Quoted message said:

They are, however, nice for pulling a trailer.

They are indeed, and depending on the size of the trailer, perhaps the ONLY road vehicle now
capable of doing so legally (besides a pickup).

I think you're relying on myth to make your case.

First, the (few) SUVs I've ridden in have not provided a particularly pleasant ride. Part of the
problem comes from the fact that the passengers are high above the ground. The pitching and rolling
motions of normal driving are thus badly amplified. And the interior noise seemed greater to me than
that of a passenger car - probably something to do with the "big box" effect. No sealed trunk, for
example, to mute tire and wind noise originating in the back.

Second, I clearly recall the last guy driving me in one had no fun at all.* He spent the entire ride
in a constant state of irritation, griping about other drivers. In most cases, their worst
transgressions were being on the road in front of him. He wanted to go even more above the speed
limit. From what I read about psychological studies, that's pretty much the character of the typical
SUV buyer.

As far as "carrying more," it's been noted many times that SUV capacity is not very large, and
certainly not proportional to the external size.

Finally, the bit about snow and back country: here, you're exaggerating the need and underestimating
the capability of a regular car. Fact is, almost nobody needs more than two driving wheels. The last
time I was temporarily stuck in snow (for about three minutes) was back in about 1969, when I took
my car into a dirt track into the woods with deep snow on the ground. (Don't ask! ;-) Since then,
I've driven rather ordinary vehicles up gravel roads in mountainous terrain to go camping. I've
driven as much as sixty miles or more on rough gravel tracks while towing large trailers. For one
emergency, I drove a freeway in blizzard while the highway patrol was literally closing the
entrances as I passed, because the snow plows could not keep up.

For the driving a typical American does (as opposed to fantasizes about) an SUV is no more necessary
than an Abrams tank.

-----------------------------

* Actually, to show off, he did briefly take it off-road in low range. He made it about 30 feet
down a narrow track, decided he couldn't go further, tried backing up, bumped hard into a tree
root, then went nearly apoplectic worrying that he might have bruised his new toy. It was
amusing, in a way.

--
Frank Krygowski [email hidden]

"Stephen Harding" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I think you are being overly negative, or misinformed on the capabilities of SUVs as a group.

They are popular for a number of reasons, but one being that they are genuinely quite capable
vehicles. They can carry quite a bit AND get through snow or back country AND ride smooth and
quiet AND be fun to

drive.

Quoted message said:

Obviously variations in the critters does exist, and some are far more capable than others.

The few I have driven or been passenger in (Ford Explorer, Dodge Durango, Toyota 4Runner, Jeep
Cherokee and Subaru Forester, have been generally good experiences.

Tire choice and 4WD/AWD selections can be very important to good performance. And yes, you can
greatly improve the slippery road performance of your economy car with just a set of snow tires,
at much reduced cost.

But you are not likely going to get the same COMBINATION of capabilities that the SUV offers.

Quoted message said:

They are, however, nice for pulling a trailer.

They are indeed, and depending on the size of the trailer, perhaps the ONLY road vehicle now
capable of doing so legally (besides a pickup).

I went from a 1990 Chevy minivan, to a '96 Jeep GC. And it was a SERIOUS downgrade in capability.
Much less passenger room (head and rear leg), less cargo space. Worse handling, worse mileage
(lifetime, ~15mpg). Ate front tires like gum drops.

About the only thing it did better was in the snow. But then again, I never had a problem with the
Lumina in the snow, either.

But it seemed a good deal at the time. My wife liked it. And a present to myself on getting out of
the USAF. It was "nice" until you compared it with something else.

I suppose if I had a regular towing requirement, that might have been a plus as well. But many
people regularly tow stuff?

Traded it in last year, and got 2 nearly new cars for pretty much the same price as the Jeep alone.
2001 Focus, and a very basic 2000 F-150.

I'd have to look long and hard before buying another SUV.

Pete

Frank Krygowski said:

Stephen Harding said:

The prefered, "responsible" solution is to purchase a Geo Metro with a mini trailer. Haul the
load in 500 pound increments on this trailer.

Yes this will make for 17 separate trips, but unless you make this trip very frequently, this is
the method you should use.

Nope. Get a bigger trailer.

Voila!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh, and don't forget to have three or four of your friends in the Metro with you, since you'll
open yourself to justifiable redicule if you go it alone.

We'll give him a break. If he has only two friends along, that'll be OK. ;-)

You're getting mighty generous in your old age Frank.

SMH

Zippy the Pinhead said:

I am about 2 meters tall and weigh about 100 Kg. That's 6'7" and 220 for you Euro-challenged
readers,

So that makes me taller than you, and about 1 Eddy Merckx heavier than you.

Quoted message said:

I also drive an SUV. A Ford Explorer. Why?

Because you're a jerk, of course, but do go on.

Quoted message said:

Well, I don't test-drive cars, I try them on. I sit in them and if they fit, I then consider a
purchase. Since Euro-Style has taken over, cars just don't fit me. I have a military
service-connected problem with one of my knees that keeps me from squatting down far enough to
enter the kind of car that you all would like me to drive. I need headroom. I could wear a cowboy
hat in my Explorer if I wanted to (which I really don't), but when I sit in one of the politically
correct cars, I could use a sun-roof to stick my head through. Not even all SUVs fit me; the Dodge
Derange-O has a high enough ceiling, but the morons who designed it decided it would be cool to
have the roofline in front extend down into the windshield area, and I'll be Goddamned if I'll
duck down to watch the signal lights change. I'll also be Goddamned if I'll drive around with my
knees up under my chin.

I don't own a car, for the reasons you have named as well as others. I use a motorcycle for personal
transportation.

But I rent cars often as a result, and I usually have to play "musical driver's seats" until I find
one that will work. I always try on an SUV if there's one available. I've tried a bunch of them.

I HAVE NEVER RENTED AN SUV. There has always, always been a sedan that fit me better. That Dodge
Durango you were talking about? A Dodge Intrepid fits me better, and I am bigger, a lot bigger, than
you are. Hint: Jacking up the roof a foot higher than normal makes no difference if you raise the
floor by the same amount.

No, I can't sit bolt upright in an Intrepid, I have to recline the seat somewhat. Yes, I have to
lean forward to see traffic signals if I am first at the light. Suck it up, Shorty, it's better than
being an inconsiderate glutton every day of your miserable life. Or else get a motorbike and live
the life of a non-coward.

Half-ton pickup trucks are OK, barely, when it comes to fitting me in the driver's seat. But their
SUV derivatives are often not as accomodating, with large consoles and and deeply contoured seats
for torsos narrower than mine.

I bet you couldn't guess which of all the cars I've ever tried had the most spacious cockpit for my
bulky body. You wouldn't guess it, because you've never tried it, because the thing isn't butch
enough for your puerile bully's tastes: The New VW Beetle. Easy to get in, easy to drive.

And of all the cars I or my family have owned, which include Cadillac DeVilles, Lincoln
Continentals, full-size Ford and Plymouth vans, and VW buses, there is one car that that was by far
the most accomodationg to my long legs and overall proportions-- a 1974 Karmann Ghia convertible.
No fooling. When VW gave up on offering that lame excuse for a back seat, the front seat space
became huge.

Quoted message said:

but my abnormal size doesn't cut any [censored] when it comes to convincing folks that I need to drive
the car I drive.

Not with me; I know it's a lie and a self-justifying one at that.

You can drive your Ford Explorer because you want to, because you're a jerk. But you'll not be
fooling me about your "need" for your jerk-ass car.

That truckette of yours is the same as the tool belt worn by David, the "construction worker" from
the Village People. All about butch dress-up and nothing about necessity.

Quoted message said:

[censored] you very much.

You don't even need to say that. Your car does it for you.

Chalo Colina "mucho, mucho, macho macho man"

(Jon Isaacs) said:

I wonder what Chalo Colina drives, I think hes a bit bigger than this fellow. I have a friend who
is 6 foot 7 and he drives a Suburu Forrester.

And of course we all remember the VW rabbit commercial with Wilt Chamberlain. Big cars don't
necessarily have a lot of room. and some small cars have a great deal of room.

Surely. Last time I tried on a Mercury Grand Marquis, I couldn't keep my knees from pressing against
the dashboard. Yet I could have done chair aerobics in my '74 Karmann Ghia.

The late, unlamented Ford Fairmont had the headlight knob situated such that I would inadvertently
turn the lights off with my knee, and this was when I was 16 years old in Driver's Ed, not yet full
grown. But the new Ford Focus is not bad, more spacious than you'd think.

Seems like most of the men I see driving obscene vehicles like Excursions or F350 4-door duallies
are short, tightly wound Napoleon types with some point to prove. Makes me wonder what Zippy's
problem is; you'd think he'd have done some critical thinking about car cockpit room, and that he'd
have enough self-confidence to refrain from bully behavior.

Chalo Colina

--------------------
the first social lesson a _big_ boy learns is, "be careful, don't hurt people"

"Stephen Harding" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Zippy the Pinhead said:

Until and unless the dipshits who design cars come to the awful

realization

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that we can't all be built like Tom Daschle, I'll continue to drive my

SUV,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and all of you automotive fascists can go [censored] up a rope, [censored] you very much.

Uh oh! Where's Godwin?

He has passed on. You can ignore this thread if you no longer want to participate.

"Stephen Harding" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Zippy the Pinhead said:

Until and unless the dipshits who design cars come to the awful

realization

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that we can't all be built like Tom Daschle, I'll continue to drive my

SUV,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and all of you automotive fascists can go [censored] up a rope, [censored] you very much.

Uh oh! Where's Godwin?

He's riding shotgun, Stephen.

Get in, sit down, strap in and shut up. We're goin' four-wheelin'. Yee-hahhhh.

BTW -- thanks for the real definition of "Jihad".

Do you ".edu" guys ever do anything besides pontificate on UseNet?

In article <[email hidden]>, Stephen Harding

Quoted message said:

They are popular for a number of reasons, but one being that they are genuinely quite capable
vehicles. They can carry quite a bit AND get through snow or back country AND ride smooth and quiet
AND be fun to drive.

Not so sure about the last two characteristics, at least with respect to the "real" SUVs with good
off-road and towing capability. Those that I have ridden in were not very smooth riding, even
compared to economy or sporty cars, and I doubt that they would be fun to drive with respect to
their handling capabilities.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is
provided with this message.

"Chris Phillipo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I would venture to guess that the only people who buy a car that meets their minimum needs do so
because they can't afford anything better. Cars are not microwaves or toaster ovens, they are drop
in replacements for the toys you had as a kid. People in general don't buy a car like it's an
appliance, they buy it like they are shopping for a big screen TV or nice stereo system. You can
ask me if I really need those big tires, but I can also ask you do you need that spoiler or the
leather seats. Why did you get the car in red when we all know it's the most expensive color to
maintain? And so on. If I didn't have my 4 Runner I would have a piece of [censored] car and a nice ATV
and wish I had the 4 runner back.

You must be talking about my Corvette. It is a fun toy to have, but it is not very practical. It
doesn't have to have 315/35ZR17 tires on the back, but they sure help when I plant the accelerator
to the floor. It doesn't have a spoiler, but the leather seats sure are nice. The Torch Red color is
also my idea of the right color for a Corvette.

I have this kind of car because I wanted it and can afford it. When the weather is bad I drive a
Ford Ranger 4x4. I do not want a small car. The great thing is that I can buy what I want and these
eco fanatics can't do anything about it.

Bluto said:

Seems like most of the men I see driving obscene vehicles like Excursions or F350 4-door duallies
are short, tightly wound Napoleon types with some point to prove.

I've seen such characters. One guy who used to live near here had a cartoonish off-road rig, with
massively oversized tires, a body raised high in the air, brightly painted suspension components,
lots of extra chrome, loud pipes, etc. etc. Macho in the extreme.

The guy was, no kidding, about 5 feet tall. He had worked his biceps up to about 20" circumference
and sported a very aggressive attitude. Clearly, he was doing some compensating.

--
Frank Krygowski [email hidden]

"Stephen Harding" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The few I have driven or been passenger in (Ford Explorer, Dodge Durango,

Toyota 4Runner, Jeep Cherokee and Subaru Forester, have been generally good experiences.

I gotta say, to be fair, even though my Explorer has all the headroom I was looking for, and the
legroom, and obviates the necessity to squat down to get into it -- AND holds my XL RANS V^2 in the
back, it leaves something to be desired.

Quality may at one time have been Job One at Ford, but it wasn't in 98 when my vehicle was built.
You have to slam the [censored] out of the driverside rear door to shut it. The seatbelts never retract.
You have to fiddle with the hood to make it stay shut. The door locks are sticking. The power
windows need a little help in cold weather, and God help you if you park it during freezing rain,
you'll be crawling in through the rear hatch. And the damn radio gets nothing but static.

Krygowski in his all-knowing wisdom did a quick AutoByTel lookup and pointed out to me that there's
some kind of a sushi-wagon that has 0.375" more headroom than my Explorer supposedly does. I've
tried on all the cars I could think of, and what the Nips give you in headroom they take away in a
place to put your knees. It ain't healthy to drive a couple hundred miles with your legs in the same
position. It'll give you blood clots and make your eyes all squinty and slanchy.

I hope my Explorer lasts me awhile. Nothing I've tried on lately fits me like that vehicle. Not
since the early 70s when I took the driver's seat out of my '66 Beetle and drove from the back seat
have I had so much legroom.

Frank Krygowski said:

I think you're relying on myth to make your case.

[...]

Quoted message said:

I've driven as much as sixty miles or more on rough gravel tracks while towing large trailers. For
one emergency, I drove a freeway in blizzard while the highway patrol was literally closing the
entrances as I passed, because the snow plows could not keep up.

My goodness, even snow plows can't keep up with your little economy car!

Talk about the stuff of myths!

SMH

"Frank Krygowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I suppose that's true. Then there are those of us who wonder - why on earth would someone spend
thousands of dollars to watch a big TV? What a weird way to waste time!

Yeah, get a smaller house too and sit closer to it.

BTW theres a car TV presenter/Journalist who's about 6foot 4. The only car he can't fit in was the
old ford GT40, and he drives things like mercedes 2 doors etc. Its not as standard cars or compacts
can't fit a 6 foot 6 person in.

"Frank Krygowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

For the driving a typical American does (as opposed to fantasizes about) an SUV is no more
necessary than an Abrams tank.

Says you. People can get a general purpose vehicle and not have to concern themselves with deciding
which vehicle to use for a particular trip.

"Frank Krygowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I suppose that's true. Then there are those of us who wonder - why on earth would someone spend
thousands of dollars to watch a big TV? What a weird way to waste time!

Because I enjoy watching movies on a 65 inch HDTV. Much better than going to a theatre.