Suspension fork flex

On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:08:40 +0100, "Doki" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The cheapo RST Capa fork on my mountain bike appears to flex and move
backwards relative to the rest of the bike under braking. Gentle braking
gives you a nice judder through the whole bike. Is it worth me bothering to
strip it down and rebuild it, or is the whole thing likely to be buggered?
If it is buggered, has anyone any experience of using rigid forks on an MTB
designed for suspension forks?

Don't waste your time with a fork rebuild - new bushes and seals will
probably cost more than a new fork if you shop around for NOS.

There are several rigid forks available for suspension geometry, and
lots of happy customers. I've got a cheap steel one on a bike which
previously had a 100mm travel fork. Most rigid conversions will lower
the front of the bike, so you get steeper head and seat angles, less
trail and a lower BB height, which is not always an unalloyed benefit.
Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Kinky Cowboy said:

On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:08:40 +0100, "Doki" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The cheapo RST Capa fork on my mountain bike appears to flex and move
backwards relative to the rest of the bike under braking. Gentle
braking gives you a nice judder through the whole bike. Is it worth
me bothering to strip it down and rebuild it, or is the whole thing
likely to be buggered? If it is buggered, has anyone any experience
of using rigid forks on an MTB designed for suspension forks?

Don't waste your time with a fork rebuild - new bushes and seals will
probably cost more than a new fork if you shop around for NOS.

I don't especially want to replace a knackered cheap fork with a working
cheapo fork TBH. If I were going to swap forks, I'd probalby go for one of
the decent names. OTOH, I've not been riding long and probably wouldn't take
advantage of the improved perfomance.

Quoted message said:

There are several rigid forks available for suspension geometry, and
lots of happy customers. I've got a cheap steel one on a bike which
previously had a 100mm travel fork. Most rigid conversions will lower
the front of the bike, so you get steeper head and seat angles, less
trail and a lower BB height, which is not always an unalloyed benefit.

I thought the idea of suspension geometry corrected forks is that they're
longer than normal ones, so the bike keeps the same geometry? AFAIK my forks
only have 50mm or so of travel to start with.

On Sun, 30 May 2004 12:20:02 +0100, "Doki" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Kinky Cowboy said:

On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:08:40 +0100, "Doki" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The cheapo RST Capa fork on my mountain bike appears to flex and move
backwards relative to the rest of the bike under braking. Gentle
braking gives you a nice judder through the whole bike. Is it worth
me bothering to strip it down and rebuild it, or is the whole thing
likely to be buggered? If it is buggered, has anyone any experience
of using rigid forks on an MTB designed for suspension forks?

Don't waste your time with a fork rebuild - new bushes and seals will
probably cost more than a new fork if you shop around for NOS.

I don't especially want to replace a knackered cheap fork with a working
cheapo fork TBH. If I were going to swap forks, I'd probalby go for one of
the decent names. OTOH, I've not been riding long and probably wouldn't take
advantage of the improved perfomance.

Quoted message said:

There are several rigid forks available for suspension geometry, and
lots of happy customers. I've got a cheap steel one on a bike which
previously had a 100mm travel fork. Most rigid conversions will lower
the front of the bike, so you get steeper head and seat angles, less
trail and a lower BB height, which is not always an unalloyed benefit.

I thought the idea of suspension geometry corrected forks is that they're
longer than normal ones, so the bike keeps the same geometry? AFAIK my forks
only have 50mm or so of travel to start with.

For a 50mm travel fork, you can probably get a rigid replacement the
same length (420 to 430mm), as you say eliminating geometry changes.
These forks are generally sold as replacements for 75-100mm suspension
forks, in which case my comments about geometry changes apply.

My comments about shopping around for NOS suspension forks are based
on the following; cheapest rigid fork £30, 2001 Rock Shox Jett C £40.
There are some good reasons for running a rigid fork, but saving a lot
of money isn't one of them.

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Kinky Cowboy said:

On Sun, 30 May 2004 12:20:02 +0100, "Doki" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I thought the idea of suspension geometry corrected forks is that
they're longer than normal ones, so the bike keeps the same
geometry? AFAIK my forks only have 50mm or so of travel to start
with.

For a 50mm travel fork, you can probably get a rigid replacement the
same length (420 to 430mm), as you say eliminating geometry changes.
These forks are generally sold as replacements for 75-100mm suspension
forks, in which case my comments about geometry changes apply.

My comments about shopping around for NOS suspension forks are based
on the following; cheapest rigid fork £30, 2001 Rock Shox Jett C £40.
There are some good reasons for running a rigid fork, but saving a lot
of money isn't one of them.

Where's that? I've not seen any offers around the bike shops here, or do you
tend to have to ask? What are the good reasons for having a rigid fork? I
can see that you could save weight, sprint a bit better etc.

Doki wrote:

<< What are the good reasons for having a rigid fork? I
can see that you could save weight, sprint a bit better etc. >>

Much better out of saddle acceleration/climbing, more
control under braking and smooth turns. Increased
maneuverability of front end at slow speeds. Reliability
on long rides. Increased intensity of experience, more
fun. Just one man's opinion on that last one.

Get a light rigid fork that flexes a bit and big tires.

Robert

(R15757) said:

Doki wrote:

<< What are the good reasons for having a rigid fork? I
can see that you could save weight, sprint a bit better etc. >>

Much better out of saddle acceleration/climbing, more
control under braking and smooth turns. Increased
maneuverability of front end at slow speeds. Reliability
on long rides. Increased intensity of experience, more
fun. Just one man's opinion on that last one.

Get a light rigid fork that flexes a bit and big tires.

Robert

All of the above and it teaches you to ride better, easier to lift the
front over stuff instead of riding through it, precise front wheel
positioning which is pretty much essential for a lot of trials moves.

For a cheap suspension fork, try
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/viewproduct.asp?category=Forks&ModelID=1682

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Kinky Cowboy said:

(R15757) said:

Doki wrote:

<< What are the good reasons for having a rigid fork? I
can see that you could save weight, sprint a bit better etc. >>

Much better out of saddle acceleration/climbing, more
control under braking and smooth turns. Increased
maneuverability of front end at slow speeds. Reliability
on long rides. Increased intensity of experience, more
fun. Just one man's opinion on that last one.

Get a light rigid fork that flexes a bit and big tires.

Robert

All of the above and it teaches you to ride better, easier to lift the
front over stuff instead of riding through it, precise front wheel
positioning which is pretty much essential for a lot of trials moves.

For a cheap suspension fork, try
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/viewproduct.asp?category=Forks&ModelID=1682

Kinky Cowboy*

Dear Kinky,

Hmm . . . this guy seems to ride pretty well, is lifting his
front wheel over stuff, and is awfully precise, despite the
handicap of front suspension:

http://www.ssdt.org/Wed5th/IMG_3903.jpg

In fact, everyone in the event runs front suspension (and
has been for over fifty years).

Of course, things are probably drastically different in
bicycle trials, but the "precise" part was where my faith
was shaken.

Carl Fogel

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Kinky Cowboy said:

(R15757) said:

Doki wrote:

<< What are the good reasons for having a rigid fork? I
can see that you could save weight, sprint a bit better etc. >>

Much better out of saddle acceleration/climbing, more
control under braking and smooth turns. Increased
maneuverability of front end at slow speeds. Reliability
on long rides. Increased intensity of experience, more
fun. Just one man's opinion on that last one.

Get a light rigid fork that flexes a bit and big tires.

Robert

All of the above and it teaches you to ride better, easier to lift the
front over stuff instead of riding through it, precise front wheel
positioning which is pretty much essential for a lot of trials moves.

For a cheap suspension fork, try
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/viewproduct.asp?category=Forks&ModelID=168
2

Kinky Cowboy*

Dear Kinky,

Hmm . . . this guy seems to ride pretty well, is lifting his
front wheel over stuff, and is awfully precise, despite the
handicap of front suspension:

http://www.ssdt.org/Wed5th/IMG_3903.jpg

In fact, everyone in the event runs front suspension (and
has been for over fifty years).

Of course, things are probably drastically different in
bicycle trials, but the "precise" part was where my faith
was shaken.

Erm, there's precise and then there's precise. First of all, motorcycle
trials riders ride bikes weighing, ohh...70 kg for a really light
example:

http://www.gasgas.com/Gas-Gas-Media/pdf-s/2004s/specs-125.pdf

70 kg = 154 lbs.

I daresay that without suspension damping, they'd just break those
motorcycles when they dropped the front wheel onto something.

Bicycle trials riders use somewhat lighter mounts, and are able to
attenuate the landing forces with their arms and legs rather more
effectively. I don't know of any competitive trials bike that comes with
front suspension, as shown in this series of competition photos:

http://biketrials.com/comp/2004-05-09-Keyesville/index.shtml

Honesty compels me to mention one exception. Ryan Leech, trials demo
rider, runs an MX Comp on his bike.

http://ryanleech.com/hardware/

Note that Leech is a fabulously skilled and quite famous triallist, but
he does not normally ride competitions.

On the other hand, he does this:

http://ryanleech.com/multimedia/pics/berkcourtseries.jpg

And can also manage a 103 cm sidehop (for which the fork might actually
help).

http://ryanleech.com/multimedia/

-RjC.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Quoted message said:

Honesty compels me to mention one exception. Ryan Leech, trials demo
rider, runs an MX Comp on his bike.

I believe he's sponsored by Zoke... he kinda has to use it.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Ryan Cousineau said:

...

Quoted message said:

Note that Leech is a fabulously skilled and quite famous triallist, but
he does not normally ride competitions.

On the other hand, he does this:

http://ryanleech.com/multimedia/pics/berkcourtseries.jpg....

I was not aware that he was one of six identical sextuplets.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

On Sun, 30 May 2004 20:09:31 -0700, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Kinky Cowboy said:

On 30 May 2004 18:19:33 GMT, [email hidden] (R15757) wrote:

>Doki wrote:
>
><< What are the good reasons for having a rigid fork? I

All of the above and it teaches you to ride better, easier to lift the
front over stuff instead of riding through it, precise front wheel
positioning which is pretty much essential for a lot of trials moves.

Kinky Cowboy*

Dear Kinky,
Of course, things are probably drastically different in
bicycle trials, but the "precise" part was where my faith
was shaken.

Erm, there's precise and then there's precise. First of all, motorcycle
trials riders ride bikes weighing, ohh...70 kg for a really light

Quite. I'd want to be VERY precise if I was doing some of the stuff
these guys do
http://www.trialskings.com/photos/01.11/1.jpg
That girder edge he's landing on is narrower than the tyres.

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

R15757 said:

Doki wrote:

<< What are the good reasons for having a rigid fork? I
can see that you could save weight, sprint a bit better etc. >>

Much better out of saddle acceleration/climbing, more
control under braking and smooth turns. Increased
maneuverability of front end at slow speeds. Reliability
on long rides. Increased intensity of experience, more
fun. Just one man's opinion on that last one.

Get a light rigid fork that flexes a bit and big tires.

Horses for courses. Suspension is very valuable for most of the trails I ride.
If you're worried about pogoing during sprints and climbs, many forks have
lockout levers. Many are dead reliable too -- requiring no more service than a
headset. How often do you repack your headset? Consider a Rockhox Psylo -- it
has a lockout lever, and adjustable travel. At the minimum travel, it will
probably work well on your current frame, but you can put it on a
long-travel-type frame in the future.

Matt O.

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 31 May 2004 00:09:58 GMT, Kinky Cowboy
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On 30 May 2004 18:19:33 GMT, [email hidden] (R15757) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Doki wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<< What are the good reasons for having a rigid fork? I
can see that you could save weight, sprint a bit better etc.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Much better out of saddle acceleration/climbing, more
control under braking and smooth turns. Increased
maneuverability of front end at slow speeds. Reliability
on long rides. Increased intensity of experience, more
fun. Just one man's opinion on that last one.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Get a light rigid fork that flexes a bit and big tires.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All of the above and it teaches you to ride better, easier to lift
the front over stuff instead of riding through it, precise front
wheel positioning which is pretty much essential for a lot of trials
moves.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For a cheap suspension fork, try

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/viewproduct.asp?category=Forks&ModelID=1682

Quoted message said:

Hmm . . . this guy seems to ride pretty well, is lifting his
front wheel over stuff, and is awfully precise, despite the
handicap of front suspension:

Quoted message said:

http://www.ssdt.org/Wed5th/IMG_3903.jpg

Quoted message said:

In fact, everyone in the event runs front suspension (and
has been for over fifty years).

Quoted message said:

Of course, things are probably drastically different in
bicycle trials, but the "precise" part was where my faith
was shaken.

I've seen Hans Rey out riding many times, on a standard MTB w/ front suspension.
Suspension fork precision doesn't seem to be an issue for him.

Matt O.

In article <[email hidden]>,

ZeeExSixAre said:

Quoted message said:

Honesty compels me to mention one exception. Ryan Leech, trials demo
rider, runs an MX Comp on his bike.

I believe he's sponsored by Zoke... he kinda has to use it.

I wouldn't go that far. It's more that Leech really does a kind of very
freeriding/street form of trials, and for that riding a suspension fork
makes sense. The Marzocchi sponsorship almost certainly came about via
Norco. He's very closely connected to Norco (their design office would
be less than 10 miles from his house), is credited as a major design
resource for the frame he rides. Norco in turn uses Zokes on every
serious bike they produce, resorting to Suntour parts only on the
cheapest machines.

Believe it or not, Marzocchi does make a rigid fork, though:

(original Marzocchi.com URL deleted to spare your sanity. It was 521
characters)

http://tinyurl.com/2n9d4

BMX only, max rider weight 145 pounds for this particular one. Wouldn't
fit on Leech's bike.

Bet I could beat him in a time trial, though,
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Ryan Cousineau said:

...
Believe it or not, Marzocchi does make a rigid fork, though:

(original Marzocchi.com URL deleted to spare your sanity. It was 521
characters)

http://tinyurl.com/2n9d4

For those who prefer the actual URL:
<http://www.marzocchi.com/template/detailSPAForks.asp?IDFolder=113&LN=UK&OEM=&mCO=ucmPhhfuuj%602%2FJoufsp2%21BTD%2D%21ucmPhhfuuj%2FJoufsp5%21BTD&mCW=BOE%21ucmBooj%2FUftup2%21%3F%3E%21%283112%28%21BOE%21ucmPhhfuuj%2FCju2%21%3E%212%21BOE%21ucmPhhfuuj%2FUftup3%21%3E%21%28FYQFSU%2131035%28&mCJ=%21JOOFS%21KPJO%21ucmPhhfuuj%21BT%21ucmBooj%21%21PO%21ucmPhhfuuj%2FJoufsp2%21%3E%21ucmBooj%2FJEPhhfuup%21%21JOOFS%21KPJO%21ucmPhhfuuj%21ucmPhhfuuj%602%21PO%21ucmPhhfuuj%2FJoufsp2%21%3E%21ucmPhhfuuj%602%2FJEPhhfuup%21&IDOggetto=2607>.
😉

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area