Surly with built-in Xtracycle

Erik Sandblom said:

Hello

Xtracycle is selling a lot of their Free Radical kits which move your rear
wheel back 40cm. That way you can carry more stuff, even passengers.

Now Surly, a bike maker, is going to sell readymade "longtail" bikes. No
more kit-building.

http://todd.cleverchimp.com/blog/?p=150

For those who live in non-flat areas, one consideration is the weight of
these bikes. As I understand it, a complete Xtracycle bike weighs a little
over 20kg. The 8-freight, not too dissimilar, also weighs 20kg.
http://www.bikefix.co.uk/index.php?get_ol_id=9&get_gl_id=53&get_sgl_id=140

Some other popular cargo bikes are the Bakfiets Cargobike and the
Christiania trike. They weigh 35-40kg.
http://www.bakfiets.nl/eng/models_cargo_bike.php
http://www.christianiabikes.com/

I have never ridden or weighed any of these bikes myself, but as I see it,
the Bakfiets Cargobike and the Christiania trike have the advantage that
the cargo is low, centred, and in full view. Neither the Xtracycle nor the
8-Freight let you see your cargo, though the 8-Freight has the cargo low
and centred.

The Xtracycle seems the only one that will carry an adult passenger.

What are your thoughts?

Erik Sandblom

Surly's "Big Dummy" looks sleek enough to take for a cross country tour. Long Haul Trucker is ok with me, but if the cargo is big, it may not fit the need.
The other options look ok for hauling stuff around town, but I think a regular bicycle with a trailer can do the job for me.

In rec.bicycles.tech Erik Sandblom said:

Hello

Xtracycle is selling a lot of their Free Radical kits which move your rear
wheel back 40cm. That way you can carry more stuff, even passengers.

Now Surly, a bike maker, is going to sell readymade "longtail" bikes. No
more kit-building.

http://todd.cleverchimp.com/blog/?p=150

For those who live in non-flat areas, one consideration is the weight of
these bikes. As I understand it, a complete Xtracycle bike weighs a little
over 20kg. The 8-freight, not too dissimilar, also weighs 20kg.
http://www.bikefix.co.uk/index.php?get_ol_id=9&get_gl_id=53&get_sgl_id=140

It's really not that bad. I live in Seattle and even with my five year
old on back I think I've only dropped to my 22 once or twice. One thing
you really need to realize is that it is a *cargo* bike. You shouldn't
be trying to timetrial on it.

Quoted message said:

Some other popular cargo bikes are the Bakfiets Cargobike and the
Christiania trike. They weigh 35-40kg.

Very neat, and I've considered the Bakfiets, but the Xtracycle has the
great advantage of wide availability. I literally dropped the frame and
wheels at my LBS and had them attach the Xtracycle. [1] Three days
later I was riding it home.

Quoted message said:

I have never ridden or weighed any of these bikes myself, but as I see it,
the Bakfiets Cargobike and the Christiania trike have the advantage that
the cargo is low, centred, and in full view. Neither the Xtracycle nor the
8-Freight let you see your cargo, though the 8-Freight has the cargo low
and centred.

The cargo is fairly low on the Xtracycle actually. Generally about at
the wheel axle height. It would be nice if it was a touch more
centered, but it hasn't been a problem so far.

I'm not sure why I'd want the cargo in my view though. Are you planning
on transporting rabid caged animals? ;-)

Quoted message said:

The Xtracycle seems the only one that will carry an adult passenger.

I haven't put an adult on it yet, but it does do a lot of kid-hauling.

[1] They specialize in Xtracycles, and I actually bought it from them.

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
"LSD melts your mind, not in your hand."

daveornee said:

The other options look ok for hauling stuff around town, but I think a
regular bicycle with a trailer can do the job for me.

A regular trailer is far inferior in handling, rolling resistance, aero
drag, and tracking a line. The only advantage is cost and ease of
swapping between bikes.

Now that I have the Xtracycle I haven't used the trailer I have at all.

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
"France? I would have loved it without the French."
-D. H. Lawrence

Den 2006-09-28 18:27:59 skrev Dane Buson <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

daveornee said:

The other options look ok for hauling stuff around town, but I think a
regular bicycle with a trailer can do the job for me.

A regular trailer is far inferior in handling, rolling resistance, aero
drag, and tracking a line. The only advantage is cost and ease of
swapping between bikes.

Now that I have the Xtracycle I haven't used the trailer I have at all.

I've never used a trailer, but I understand a two-wheel trailer attached
to the bike's rear wheel axle does not affect the bike's handling. More
drag, but should not affect handling.

Cycling "feels" normal
A two wheel bicycle trailer lets your bike handle normally, even if
carrying a lot. It corners normally. It's as maneuverable as normal, and
it simply feels normal when cycling. However it takes longer to brake and
accelerate, and hills seem steeper (going down as well as up).
http://www.carryfreedom.com/info.html

Erik Sandblom

--
my site is EriksRailNews.com

Den 2006-09-28 18:24:51 skrev Dane Buson <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Some other popular cargo bikes are the Bakfiets Cargobike and the
Christiania trike. They weigh 35-40kg.

Very neat, and I've considered the Bakfiets, but the Xtracycle has the
great advantage of wide availability.

Well I guess that depends a bit on where you live.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have never ridden or weighed any of these bikes myself, but as I see
it,
the Bakfiets Cargobike and the Christiania trike have the advantage that
the cargo is low, centred, and in full view. Neither the Xtracycle nor
the
8-Freight let you see your cargo, though the 8-Freight has the cargo low
and centred.

The cargo is fairly low on the Xtracycle actually. Generally about at
the wheel axle height. It would be nice if it was a touch more
centered, but it hasn't been a problem so far.

I'm not sure why I'd want the cargo in my view though. Are you planning
on transporting rabid caged animals? ;-)

Outsize objects can be hard to lash, so it's good to see what happens as
you go over bumps. Or maybe I'm carrying a box of wine glasses or
something.

But mainly it's good to see what kids are doing, which is a main selling
point of the cargo-in-front bikes.

Erik Sandblom

--
my site is EriksRailNews.com

Erik Sandblom said:

Den 2006-09-28 18:27:59 skrev Dane Buson <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

daveornee said:

The other options look ok for hauling stuff around town, but I think a
regular bicycle with a trailer can do the job for me.

A regular trailer is far inferior in handling, rolling resistance, aero
drag, and tracking a line. The only advantage is cost and ease of
swapping between bikes.

Now that I have the Xtracycle I haven't used the trailer I have at all.

I've never used a trailer, but I understand a two-wheel trailer attached
to the bike's rear wheel axle does not affect the bike's handling. More
drag, but should not affect handling.

I have a two wheel trailer and I've used it over the course of four years or
so. A load carried in the trailer is more awkward than the Xtracycle
because of the push-me-pull-you effect you get while pedaling. It's not
handling in the traditional sense of fork rake/frame angles, but it
definitely changes how the bike rides.

Quoted message said:

Cycling "feels" normal A two wheel bicycle trailer lets your bike handle
normally, even if carrying a lot. It corners normally. It's as maneuverable
as normal, and it simply feels normal when cycling. However it takes longer
to brake and accelerate, and hills seem steeper (going down as well as up).

Cornering, yes and no. Bollards and curbs are much, *much* easier to
hit with the trailer than the Xtracycle. Also, I have to say that the
Xtracycle handles much better than my normal commuter plus trailer.
Also, trailers can jackknife you, as I know from experience.

:-(

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
The opossum is a very sophisticated animal.
It doesn't even get up until 5 or 6 PM.

In rec.bicycles.tech Erik Sandblom said:

Den 2006-09-28 18:24:51 skrev Dane Buson <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Some other popular cargo bikes are the Bakfiets Cargobike and the
Christiania trike. They weigh 35-40kg.

Very neat, and I've considered the Bakfiets, but the Xtracycle has the
great advantage of wide availability.

Well I guess that depends a bit on where you live.

Of course. It is after all, all about what's available to *me*. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure why I'd want the cargo in my view though. Are you planning
on transporting rabid caged animals? ;-)

Outsize objects can be hard to lash, so it's good to see what happens as
you go over bumps. Or maybe I'm carrying a box of wine glasses or
something.

True, I haven't had the need yet to carry things yet.

Quoted message said:

But mainly it's good to see what kids are doing, which is a main selling
point of the cargo-in-front bikes.

I can certainly see that.

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
Engineering: "How will this work?"
Science: "Why will this work?"
Management: "When will this work?"
Liberal Arts: "Do you want fries with that?"

In rec.bicycles.tech Dane Buson said:

In rec.bicycles.tech Erik Sandblom said:

Outsize objects can be hard to lash, so it's good to see what happens as
you go over bumps. Or maybe I'm carrying a box of wine glasses or
something.

True, I haven't had the need yet to carry things yet.

^^^^^
That should be "to carry bulky things yet."

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
"Judges, as a class, display, in the matter of arranging
alimony, that reckless generosity which is found only in men
who are giving away someone else's cash." -P. G. Wodehouse

In rec.bicycles.tech Jenny Brien said:

I've been thinking of getting an Xtracycle for load hauling and
passenger carrying, maybe eventually with a Stokemonkey power assist,
but I've been wondering about the longterm durability of solo parts in
that application. This got me thinking - does anyone use a tandem as
"long tail"? An obvious nod would be to swap the chainsets about so
that it could be ridden solo without the rear pedals getting in the way
of big loads.

I've considered such a scheme, but it seems a touch too close to madness
for my tastes. I know someone who's made a tallbike Xtracycle, which
acted as a tandem in that the bottom pedals were still there. It was
possible to sit on the snapdeck and pedal.

I've personally put various heavier duty parts on my Xtracycle precisely
because of the durability concerns.

Rear wheel : Gusset Jury 48 spoke 135mm OLD hub - 8/9 speed - disc
Sun CR-18 26" Rim
Front wheel: Standard 26" 36 spoke wheel.
Will be replaced with 48 spoke 26" wheel soon
Front brake: Cantilever with brake booster arch
Rear brake : Mechanical disk brake with 8" disc rotor
Tires : Schwalbe Marathon Plus

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
"A Sunday School is a prison in which children do penance for
the evil conscience of their parents." -H. L. Mencken

Erik Sandblom said:

I have never ridden or weighed any of these bikes myself, but as I see it,
the Bakfiets Cargobike and the Christiania trike have the advantage that
the cargo is low, centred, and in full view. Neither the Xtracycle nor the
8-Freight let you see your cargo, though the 8-Freight has the cargo low
and centred.

It's plain that you haven't ridden the front-loading trikes, or you'd
be hesitant to make comparisons between them and the bikes. I doubt
the trikes would be at all satisfactory above 10mph-- they can't lean
in turns, they don't have a bike's self-correcting steering, and they
lose efficiency to tire scrub. Because they are constantly twisted and
side-loaded, they benefit little from a bike frame's disproportionate
in-plane rigidity.

Cargo trikes are adept at carrying big things short distances at low
speeds over good surfaces. Xtracycles and 8-Freights are are in
another category with regard to speed, range, and tolerance of uneven
surfaces.

BTW, although the cargo bay on an 8-Freight is centered, the rear wheel
isn't. Mike Burroughs says this doesn't matter, but my own experiments
with offset rear wheels suggest it does. I'll wager the 8-Freight
pulls consistently to one side and does not permit the rider to let go
of the bars.

Chalo

Dane Buson said:

In rec.bicycles.tech Jenny Brien said:

I've been thinking of getting an Xtracycle for load hauling and
passenger carrying, maybe eventually with a Stokemonkey power assist,
but I've been wondering about the longterm durability of solo parts in
that application. This got me thinking - does anyone use a tandem as
"long tail"? An obvious nod would be to swap the chainsets about so
that it could be ridden solo without the rear pedals getting in the way
of big loads.

I've considered such a scheme, but it seems a touch too close to madness
for my tastes. I know someone who's made a tallbike Xtracycle, which
acted as a tandem in that the bottom pedals were still there. It was
possible to sit on the snapdeck and pedal.

Now that IS mad!

The "sit on the snapdeck and pedal" possibility had put me in mind of a
"donkeyback" tamdem. I'm in Northern Ireland, and I think I might
possibly be able to find a good used tandem for the 600 pounds or so it
would take to put together a basic Xtracycle rig. Then sling the load
(bales of turf, sacks of potatoes, cylinders of gas) from between the
seat posts, much as the Vietcong did on the Ho Chi Minh Trail.

http://www.transchool.eustis.army.mil/museum/VCBIKE.htm

Chalo said:

BTW, although the cargo bay on an 8-Freight is centered, the rear wheel
isn't. Mike Burroughs says this doesn't matter, but my own experiments
with offset rear wheels suggest it does. I'll wager the 8-Freight
pulls consistently to one side

IME, no. Or at least, not so you'd notice

Quoted message said:

and does not permit the rider to let go of the bars.

This however I found to be true, just because the steering is so
twitchy. http://www.coruskate.net/view/8Great

-dan

In article <[email hidden]>
Jenny Brien <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

I've been thinking of getting an Xtracycle for load hauling and
passenger carrying, maybe eventually with a Stokemonkey power assist,
but I've been wondering about the longterm durability of solo parts in
that application. This got me thinking - does anyone use a tandem as
"long tail"?

I've used mine to take cats and rabbits to the vet - just reverse the
stoker saddle, sit the pet carrier on the top tube and run a bungee from
the bars, round the seatpost and back again. It would be easy to make a
big slingover pannier type thing to carry stuff, although you might need
to make some sort of cover for the cranks to stop them fouling it. I
don't think it would be as practical to fit a load platform over the top
tube, as it would probably be too high to carry heavy stuff safely.

Rob Morley said:

I've used mine to take cats and rabbits to the vet - just reverse the
stoker saddle, sit the pet carrier on the top tube and run a bungee from
the bars, round the seatpost and back again. It would be easy to make a
big slingover pannier type thing to carry stuff, although you might need
to make some sort of cover for the cranks to stop them fouling it.

That's why I suggested swapping the cranksets round so the final drive
comes from the front set. That way you could remove the back set
completely when using it as a longtail load-carrier, or else just
remove the timing chain and let the back cranks rest horizontal.

In article <[email hidden]>

Jenny Brien said:

Rob Morley said:

I've used mine to take cats and rabbits to the vet - just reverse the
stoker saddle, sit the pet carrier on the top tube and run a bungee from
the bars, round the seatpost and back again. It would be easy to make a
big slingover pannier type thing to carry stuff, although you might need
to make some sort of cover for the cranks to stop them fouling it.

That's why I suggested swapping the cranksets round so the final drive
comes from the front set. That way you could remove the back set
completely when using it as a longtail load-carrier, or else just
remove the timing chain and let the back cranks rest horizontal.

I don't fancy having that length of chain unsupported - I reckon it
would make life hard for the derailleurs, and slap around all over the
place.

In article said:

Jenny Brien said:

Rob Morley said:

I've used mine to take cats and rabbits to the vet - just reverse the
stoker saddle, sit the pet carrier on the top tube and run a bungee from
the bars, round the seatpost and back again. It would be easy to make a
big slingover pannier type thing to carry stuff, although you might need
to make some sort of cover for the cranks to stop them fouling it.

That's why I suggested swapping the cranksets round so the final drive
comes from the front set. That way you could remove the back set
completely when using it as a longtail load-carrier, or else just
remove the timing chain and let the back cranks rest horizontal.

I don't fancy having that length of chain unsupported - I reckon it
would make life hard for the derailleurs, and slap around all over the
place.

It can be done: http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tancrank.htm, search for
"Front crossover drive". You could probably mount an old deraileur as an
intermediate chain support if it was a problem.

In article <[email hidden]>

Alan Braggins said:

In article said:

Jenny Brien said:

Rob Morley wrote:

> I've used mine to take cats and rabbits to the vet - just reverse the
> stoker saddle, sit the pet carrier on the top tube and run a bungee from
> the bars, round the seatpost and back again. It would be easy to make a
> big slingover pannier type thing to carry stuff, although you might need
> to make some sort of cover for the cranks to stop them fouling it.

That's why I suggested swapping the cranksets round so the final drive
comes from the front set. That way you could remove the back set
completely when using it as a longtail load-carrier, or else just
remove the timing chain and let the back cranks rest horizontal.

I don't fancy having that length of chain unsupported - I reckon it
would make life hard for the derailleurs, and slap around all over the
place.

It can be done: http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tancrank.htm, search for
"Front crossover drive". You could probably mount an old deraileur as an
intermediate chain support if it was a problem.

I know - I just don't like it as a solution :-)

Chalo Colina said:

Erik Sandblom said:

I have never ridden or weighed any of these bikes myself, but as I see it,
the Bakfiets Cargobike and the Christiania trike have the advantage that
the cargo is low, centred, and in full view. Neither the Xtracycle nor the
8-Freight let you see your cargo, though the 8-Freight has the cargo low
and centred.

It's plain that you haven't ridden the front-loading trikes, or you'd
be hesitant to make comparisons between them and the bikes. I doubt
the trikes would be at all satisfactory above 10mph-- they can't lean
in turns, they don't have a bike's self-correcting steering, and they
lose efficiency to tire scrub. Because they are constantly twisted and
side-loaded, they benefit little from a bike frame's disproportionate
in-plane rigidity.

Some cargo trikes can partially lean, such as these examples that use a
non-moment connection between the "tractor" and the cargo trailer:

<http://www.flevobikeusa.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=3>,
<http://organicengines.com/lazy-index.php?file=SUV_and_Pedicab/SUV/Yellownakedsideview.jpg>.

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.

Alan Braggins said:

In article said:

Jenny Brien <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's why I suggested swapping the cranksets round so the final drive
comes from the front set. That way you could remove the back set
completely when using it as a longtail load-carrier, or else just
remove the timing chain and let the back cranks rest horizontal.

I don't fancy having that length of chain unsupported - I reckon it
would make life hard for the derailleurs, and slap around all over the
place.

It can be done: http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tancrank.htm, search for
"Front crossover drive". You could probably mount an old deraileur as an
intermediate chain support if it was a problem.

A bit of research found this in the Proteus Frame Builders Handbook
(published in 1975, when 24 gears meant a six cog block and quad
chainrings):

<quote>
If the tandem is to be used with the drive chainwheels on the front
bottom bracket, it will be necessary to mount a fitting for an extra
derailleur spring under the rear bottom bracket. This is advisable if
the pilot is considerably stronger than the stoker, or if more than 15
gears are used. Tandems with 24 gears are are built this way since the
chain line is not a problem. Most derailleurs have too much tension in
the taut position and too little in the loose position. A long spring
attached with a pivotting rivet to the top of the cage and mounted
under the bottom bracket will eliminate this problem.
</quote>

The extra spring would have greatest effect when the cage was near
vertical, with the chain on the smaller rings or cogs.